06-30-2014 01:17 AM
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  1. badbrad17's Avatar
    Hence the word "some".

    Sent from my pure Google Nexus 4 using Android Central Forums
    -1

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    07-04-2013 02:28 AM
  2. Aquila's Avatar
    The old testament is the most perfectly preserved historical document in the world
    Other than those that were written down relatively immediately and in stone, clay or other permanent media?

    I agree it is well preserved since the time of the writing... but there are, depending on source of data, between 2,000 and 3,000 years of oral tradition preceding the actual penning of written texts... and that's only going by the new earth theory of the world being 6,000 years old. In reality, it could easily be 5,000-10,000 years or more of an oral tradition.

    The primary reason that the older histories are not regarded as more complete is that the civilizations involved died off, and so continuity to current events is lost. Even so, they carry some of the same myths (with different names, order, etc) both for the reasons mentioned earlier (ancient mysteries) and because many of these myths describe astrological phenomenon that were common to the entire planet.

    There is a very distinct issue with translation, context and connotation that is hard to prove given that very few people understand the original dialects in the context of the era, but many theologians come to very different conclusions about the meanings of some words, phrases, allegories and even the point of entire books than a modern cursory perusal of an English version would imply. In my opinion, books about theology, rather than the actual texts as translated, provide much more information to the layman than reading it does - precisely for the reason that they were not meant to be read by the uninitiated.

    There are mathematical sequences involved that I grasp a little of that are lost on people who don't think algorithmically and there are chemistry and astrological observations that I may never fully get. The entire old testament and most of Jesus' parables are full of geometrical codes that are replete in Egyptian and Greek architecture and theory-crafting of the age. It really is an amazing book and an amazing subject, but none of this is evidence other than the authors meant to convey messages in a multi-layered time capsule for later generations to unlock, improve upon and pass on. That art has nearly been lost and that is also a problem caused by religion.
    msndrstood likes this.
    07-04-2013 02:31 AM
  3. JHBThree's Avatar
    You conveniently use that as a way out of your comments. I stand by my comment as the number of people who call themselves true Christians are not anything like what you describe.

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    Uh, no. I clearly said that SOME Christians need to treat the living the same way they want others to treat the unborn. The statement is unambiguous and you are choosing to read it incorrectly.

    Also, you're trying to use the No True Scotsman fallacy here. People that behave as I described are not imaginary Christians, they're just not particularly good ones. If you asked them if they were Christians, they would say that they are just as Christian as you are.
    07-04-2013 02:31 AM
  4. Aquila's Avatar
    I use No True Scotsman apparently on the word, "conservative". I was told that on this forum awhile back. I think it's valid to say that the average person thus labeled does not match the philosophy, but should society in that case pay attention to the philosophy or the impact of the practitioners? Interesting question. Labels are hard to use correctly.
    badbrad17 likes this.
    07-04-2013 02:34 AM
  5. JHBThree's Avatar
    I use No True Scotsman apparently on the word, "conservative". I was told that on this forum awhile back. I think it's valid to say that the average person thus labeled does not match the philosophy, but should society in that case pay attention to the philosophy or the impact of the practitioners? Interesting question. Labels are hard to use correctly.
    That ones a bit more difficult because there are branches of conservatism that are absolutely nothing like actual conservatives. (The neocons come to mind) But Christianity doesn't really have those distinctions.

    Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk 2
    07-04-2013 02:44 AM
  6. Aquila's Avatar
    That ones a bit more difficult because there are branches of conservatism that are absolutely nothing like actual conservatives. (The neocons come to mind) But Christianity doesn't really have those distinctions.

    Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk 2
    Yeah, I don't fit in with republicans at all.. for the most part, they're not conservative on most issues... they're pushing social "conservative" (read, regressive) ideology. I don't get along with the dem's either. I'm in my own little world of, "do what you like, don't hurt people, try to help people, I don't care" or some combination of that brand that floats in and out of libertarian, progressive and maybe just optimization.
    nolittdroid likes this.
    07-04-2013 03:04 AM
  7. AngelArs's Avatar
    that is going a bit overboard.
    Wasn't sure if the statement was about abortion or just in general. Either way it is still true, as recorded by history.

    The point I was making is that some of the loudest voices against abortion are also some of the loudest voices against programs that would make a difference in millions of people's lives.
    Yes, I agree.
    msndrstood likes this.
    07-04-2013 03:05 AM
  8. Aquila's Avatar
    Wasn't sure if the statement was about abortion or just in general. Either way it is still true, as recorded by history.
    I think it's that we all know about the bloodshed and fear monger, hate breeding and general unpleasantness of a viewpoint ordained by an omni-omni-omni that only speaks to tyrants and psychopaths directly, and in subtle more gentle ways to those that actually believe in them.
    badbrad17 likes this.
    07-04-2013 03:07 AM
  9. AngelArs's Avatar
    There is a new organization that started in my city a few years ago called Run for Water. It was started by a friend of mine. It's basically a walk, run, marathon event that raises money to build clean water systems in Africa. I think they just had their 6th year and raised over $350,000 this year alone. It was pretty incredible how this thing has taken off. It's not about preaching at people, it's about helping people.
    Well done! Wish more people were like this. Refreshing to read about.
    msndrstood, Aquila and badbrad17 like this.
    07-04-2013 03:13 AM
  10. AngelArs's Avatar
    I think it's that we all know about the bloodshed and fear monger, hate breeding and general unpleasantness of a viewpoint ordained by an omni-omni-omni that only speaks to tyrants and psychopaths directly, and in subtle more gentle ways to those that actually believe in them.
    I agree with most of that, but obviously everyone doesn't know about it or it still wouldn't be going on today. I just wonder what it's going to take for some people to understand that there is only one planet and we all need to share it in harmony.
    msndrstood likes this.
    07-04-2013 03:45 AM
  11. primevyl's Avatar
    ITT:
    God hates homosexuals
    You can't be racist if your partner is black
    Muslims are bad because they are killers. All of them.
    Murder is good if you think the person you're killing is a bad guytm

    Ha ha ha ha

    Now I understand
    <<<Sent from my Rooted (soon to be) 64+ gig Rezound!>>>
    badbrad17 likes this.
    07-04-2013 03:55 AM
  12. ekoee's Avatar
    My best friend categorizes himself as an atheist. He's a good person. He's a much better person than some of those who do go to church and consider themselves Christian. Very generous and always thinking about what would help others rather than himself. If my God wouldn't let him into heaven for being atheist, then I'm believing in the wrong God. Then again, I don't believe He would reject him.

    Disclaimer: These are my beliefs, maybe yours but I'm not certain. (Read: opinion)

    Running wild and saying that Jesus would look down on today is like saying there's no love in the world anymore. I think that saying such repressive things isn't what our religion wants. We don't want to put down anyone or persecute, but instead bring them up. It's the same in Islam, Judaism, and any other world religions. Common ground is what they're going for.

    I guess in retrospect it's easier to find common ground with someone that shares the same beliefs. The down side is that we fail to realize that others have a valid point in their eyes, and we should listen before passing judgement (if even then).

    Gay people getting married doesn't effect anyone but gay people. I don't see what the problem is. Go ahead and run Sodom and Gomorrah on me. My argument still stands; written by imperfect people by God's standards.

    As a Christian I understand we're supposed to strive to be like Jesus. The way 'churches' have been acting now days, I don't think so.

    I think people are just scared of what they don't understand (in the same sense a lot of people are afraid of the dark, no knowledge of the subject at hand).
    GadgetGator likes this.
    07-04-2013 06:28 AM
  13. pappy53's Avatar
    First it's NOT a child. Please learn basic definitions. A child is a human between the stages of birth and puberty. Since there is no birth it does NOT meet the criteria of the definition. Sorry. What you are referring to is actually called filicide. Try again.
    Another idiotic statement. You must not have children, otherwise, from the time that you found out about the pregnancy, you would be saying that she was carrying your child.
    07-04-2013 08:09 AM
  14. msndrstood's Avatar
    Wow, and I slept through all of that!

    That's probably a good thing.

    What?! ... I'm msndrstood.
    via Note II
    Aquila and badbrad17 like this.
    07-04-2013 08:54 AM
  15. pappy53's Avatar
    First it's NOT a child. Please learn basic definitions. A child is a human between the stages of birth and puberty. Since there is no birth it does NOT meet the criteria of the definition. Sorry. What you are referring to is actually called filicide. Try again.
    Filicide is the murder of a son or daughter, so you are correct on that part. Abortion is filicide.
    Filicide - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

    Also, if it is not a child, why is it that if a pregnant woman is killed that the killer is charged with double murder?
    badbrad17 likes this.
    07-04-2013 09:08 AM
  16. badbrad17's Avatar
    Other than those that were written down relatively immediately and in stone, clay or other permanent media?

    I agree it is well preserved since the time of the writing... but there are, depending on source of data, between 2,000 and 3,000 years of oral tradition preceding the actual penning of written texts... and that's only going by the new earth theory of the world being 6,000 years old. In reality, it could easily be 5,000-10,000 years or more of an oral tradition.

    The primary reason that the older histories are not regarded as more complete is that the civilizations involved died off, and so continuity to current events is lost. Even so, they carry some of the same myths (with different names, order, etc) both for the reasons mentioned earlier (ancient mysteries) and because many of these myths describe astrological phenomenon that were common to the entire planet.

    There is a very distinct issue with translation, context and connotation that is hard to prove given that very few people understand the original dialects in the context of the era, but many theologians come to very different conclusions about the meanings of some words, phrases, allegories and even the point of entire books than a modern cursory perusal of an English version would imply. In my opinion, books about theology, rather than the actual texts as translated, provide much more information to the layman than reading it does - precisely for the reason that they were not meant to be read by the uninitiated.

    There are mathematical sequences involved that I grasp a little of that are lost on people who don't think algorithmically and there are chemistry and astrological observations that I may never fully get. The entire old testament and most of Jesus' parables are full of geometrical codes that are replete in Egyptian and Greek architecture and theory-crafting of the age. It really is an amazing book and an amazing subject, but none of this is evidence other than the authors meant to convey messages in a multi-layered time capsule for later generations to unlock, improve upon and pass on. That art has nearly been lost and that is also a problem caused by religion.
    I actually read a book about the numerical patterns that are in the Bible. I think it was called the Bible code or something. But what was concluded by the author was that there really wasn't any evidence to prove it. He used computers and software to analyze things and even though he wanted to see some results there just wasn't.

    But as for the validity of the now written text of the old testament. My point was just that there are rules used by scholars to determine the validity of any ancient written texts. These rules are applied and the documents would be assessed as to how well preserved they are. My point was that if some of the posters were going to disregard the Bible as flawed then they would have to disregard many other historical documents that are accepted by all scholars even though they have less consistency or validation than the old testament.

    I believe that much of the mystery and ancient writings that have been found can also be validated by the concept of a global flood. If this event did in fact take place, many of the things we find in writings on walls as well as stories from almost every corner of the earth can be confirmed. Not to mention geological evidence that supports this as well.

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    Aquila likes this.
    07-04-2013 10:03 AM
  17. return_0's Avatar
    -1

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    What? What are you trying to say?

    Sent from my pure Google Nexus 4 using Android Central Forums
    07-04-2013 10:25 AM
  18. llamabreath's Avatar
    What? What are you trying to say?

    Sent from my pure Google Nexus 4 using Android Central Forums
    Probably the opposite of +1

    Sent from Hotlanta via New Yawk
    Wiley_11 and badbrad17 like this.
    07-04-2013 10:28 AM
  19. badbrad17's Avatar
    So interesting question.... a non-christian/hebrew/muslim who is a good person in their actions and prays or meditates but calls their interpretation of God something else... anything else. I know there are varying stances on whether or not it counts for truth, etc and judgement... but are those prayers, in your estimation, heard and/or answered?

    I'm thinking of the ancient religions that more or less believed in showing homage to various entities, but believed that you are judged based on your actions relative to respecting the universe - or are not judged at all, but are balanced, such as via Karma, etc. Would those people, projecting their thoughts into the universe without God's specific mailing address (according to those three), still find their messages received?
    We if you are asking me based on my personal beliefs and what I have read biblically then I would say there could be a number of ways to answer this. Or at the very least determine what I think most Christians would believe.

    1. Christians only believe in the God of the Bible which states that He is the only true God and that any other gods are false. So in this case, people who are not Christians are not praying to God but to something else.

    2. The something else could be an idol or inert object (ie a gold statue) and or something with no substantial ability for power (ie a cow). For me I don't believe that any prayer being sent to any of these things are going any where.

    3. There are some religions that do follow the God of the Bible but don't accept Jesus as the savior of their souls which for me invalidates their ability to approach God in a personal way. The Book of Hebrews discusses how Christ bridged the gap between the high priests that were needed in the old testament in order to approach God and the Ark of the Covenant in the Holy of Holies. Without this important piece we still have no mediator between God (who is perfectly righteous and holy) and man (who is inherently evil). This is integral part of why Christians can pray directly to God. And even why the Catholic confessional is also a flawed system and unneeded.

    4. There are also some people who pray to other "gods" that I believe could be praying to an evil force that is also Biblical. We can call it Satan etc. In this case I do believe that they are in fact praying to a true being of power but not to God.

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    07-04-2013 10:30 AM
  20. Wiley_11's Avatar
    I believe that much of the mystery and ancient writings that have been found can also be validated by the concept of a global flood. If this event did in fact take place, many of the things we find in writings on walls as well as stories from almost every corner of the earth can be confirmed.
    Precipitation

    The conventional flood story states that the flood waters came from rain that lasted 40 days and 40 nights.[2][3] Rain appears when the air can no longer support water in the vapor phase and it becomes saturated. Normally, the atmosphere is on the brink of saturation, and the variations in temperature and pressure caused by weather fronts are capable of altering the threshold at which precipitation will form quite easily. What about the amount of water vapor suspended in air needed for the 4.5 billion cubic kilometers of water needed for the global flood? The water vapor currently in the air is only around 2-3% on average, with a maximum of 4% limited by temperature and pressure.[4] The change in atmospheric conditions required to support enough vapor for 112 million cubic kilometers of rain per day - about 120,000 times more than the current daily rainfall worldwide[5] - would have rendered the air unbreathable.

    Indeed, the atmosphere really couldn't sustain that much water even under the most extreme temperature and pressure conditions the planet can produce. If the conditions were right for that much water to be in the atmosphere, humans and virtually every other animal would have drowned through the simple act of breathing, as well as turning the earth into the equivalent of a pressure cooker with atmospheric pressure at nearly a thousand psi instead of the standard 14.7 or so that we have today. Barring the goddidit escape hatch (a tried and tested fallback for creationists everywhere), this is impossible.

    LINK
    07-04-2013 10:32 AM
  21. badbrad17's Avatar
    Why would the truth offend you? Actually they said nothing wrong, and it certainly wasn't untrue. MANY examples of this throughout history;

    Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) in 782 had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to convert to Christianity, beheaded.


    Don't forget The Crusades (1095-1291)


    Spanish Inquisitor Torquemada alone responsible for 10,220 human burnings.


    The witch hunts (1484-1750) several hundred thousand (about 80% female) burned at the stake or hanged.


    15th century: Crusades against Hussites, thousands slain.


    1568 Spanish Inquisition Tribunal ordered extermination of 3 million rebels in (then Spanish) Netherlands.


    17th century: Catholics sack the city of Magdeburg/Germany: roughly 30,000 Protestants were slain.


    Second Crusade: 1147. Several hundred Jews were slain in Ham, Sully, Carentan, and Rameru (all locations in France).


    1389 In Prag 3,000 Jews were slaughtered.


    Columbus visits Hispaniola, the native population (Arawak), a rather harmless and happy people living on an island of abundant natural resources, a literal paradise, soon mourned 50,000 dead. The surviving Indians fell victim to rape, murder, enslavement and spanish raids.


    When the 16th century ended, some 200,000 Spaniards had moved to the Americas. By that time more than 60,000,000 natives were dead.


    On the territory that is now Massachusetts the founding fathers of the colonies were committing genocide, in what has become known as the "Peqout War". The killers were New England Christians, refugees from persecution in their own home country England.


    In a single massacre in "King Philip's War" of 1675 and 1676 some 600 Indians were massacred.


    This is just the tip of the iceberg. Many more examples here.

    Think that all of that killing was just 'back then'? Think again. It happens still today. Of course no one is saying that every single christian is like that, but many were, and some still are. So when someone says that christians don't care about life, I think history has proven that many times over. Just say 'in.


    You mean among religious groups right? Because they don't hold a candle to non-religous groups. For example; Warren Buffett (atheist} donated $40.785 billion to health, education, humanitarian causes. Bill & Melinda Gates (both atheists) donated $27.602 billion to global health and development, education. George Soros (atheist) donated $6.936 billion to open and democratic societies. Many more examples of this.

    If I made a broad stroking statement like he/she did about Black people or Gay people I would be hung. People are flawed by nature. We all have issues, but to generalize and say that the world would be a better place etc. if we had Christians doing this or that is a bigoted response in my opinion. Especially when so many Christians world wide do so much to help people who are alive. The comment was sent with malice.

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    07-04-2013 10:41 AM
  22. badbrad17's Avatar
    Uh, no. I clearly said that SOME Christians need to treat the living the same way they want others to treat the unborn. The statement is unambiguous and you are choosing to read it incorrectly.

    Also, you're trying to use the No True Scotsman fallacy here. People that behave as I described are not imaginary Christians, they're just not particularly good ones. If you asked them if they were Christians, they would say that they are just as Christian as you are.
    So using your logic I could say, if "some" black people would stop selling crack and shooting people in my neighborhood then our city would-be a better place?

    I doubt this would be acceptable to anyone on this forum (and it's not to me), yet this is what you did. People are very tolerant of slamming Christians these days when they don't agree with the doctrine, but to suggest that Christians aren't doing enough is just BS.

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    07-04-2013 10:51 AM
  23. badbrad17's Avatar
    I agree with most of that, but obviously everyone doesn't know about it or it still wouldn't be going on today. I just wonder what it's going to take for some people to understand that there is only one planet and we all need to share it in harmony.
    But what Christian organization is out causing bloodshed? Sorry not following you.

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    07-04-2013 10:55 AM
  24. badbrad17's Avatar
    Precipitation

    The conventional flood story states that the flood waters came from rain that lasted 40 days and 40 nights.[2][3] Rain appears when the air can no longer support water in the vapor phase and it becomes saturated. Normally, the atmosphere is on the brink of saturation, and the variations in temperature and pressure caused by weather fronts are capable of altering the threshold at which precipitation will form quite easily. What about the amount of water vapor suspended in air needed for the 4.5 billion cubic kilometers of water needed for the global flood? The water vapor currently in the air is only around 2-3% on average, with a maximum of 4% limited by temperature and pressure.[4] The change in atmospheric conditions required to support enough vapor for 112 million cubic kilometers of rain per day - about 120,000 times more than the current daily rainfall worldwide[5] - would have rendered the air unbreathable.

    Indeed, the atmosphere really couldn't sustain that much water even under the most extreme temperature and pressure conditions the planet can produce. If the conditions were right for that much water to be in the atmosphere, humans and virtually every other animal would have drowned through the simple act of breathing, as well as turning the earth into the equivalent of a pressure cooker with atmospheric pressure at nearly a thousand psi instead of the standard 14.7 or so that we have today. Barring the goddidit escape hatch (a tried and tested fallback for creationists everywhere), this is impossible.

    LINK
    There is actually a twist to the point you present which is a good one Btw. The Bible states that water came down from the heavens as well as out of the earth. The water contained in the earth itself would cover anything needed to flood everything. This doesn't mean that everything is absolute, but I always find it interesting that the Bible does cover it's bases with details that do matter scientifically. Even things observed when Mt. Saint Helen erupted sent many geologists into a tailspin as things that were occurring in days would have previously been believed to have happened over thousands or millions of years. Even things like petrification has proven to happen much faster than originally believed.

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    07-04-2013 11:00 AM
  25. llamabreath's Avatar
    I think we need Mythbusters to join this thread.

    Sent from Hotlanta via New Yawk
    07-04-2013 11:09 AM
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