06-30-2014 01:17 AM
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  1. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    Homosexuality is a sin plain and simple. I believe that I am supposed to hate sin, but care for the sinner.

    As for not being able to choose who you fall in love with, if that was true then we would all be with the person that first awakened feelings of love within us. We are designed to procreate, there is no way that 2 men or 2 women can create a life naturally the way it was intended.

    I take offense at being called a bigot, and being referred to as hate filled. This is simply not true.
    We've had a few discussions in the past. Sometimes we've agreed, sometimes we haven't. I would not consider you hate filled at all. While you might disagree or have a moral disagreement with the way some people choose to live their lives, I don't think that means you dislike the actual person. So....I'm pretty sure that makes you also not bigoted. Right?
    Live2ride883 likes this.
    06-28-2013 12:11 PM
  2. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    Can't you qualify it and say in your opinion, or per Christian doctrine, or per the Bible or the teaching of Jesus? If you say outright that "it is a sin" your putting a stamp on a whole group of people as being "sinners." I see that as no different as saying such horrible things as "African Americans should be slaves."
    What difference would that make, though, honestly? It wouldn't change the context of his statement at all. His beliefs are being expressed either way, and if that's how they come across to you (as you said they did) then qualifying them like you said also won't change that.

    You're both expressing opinions and beliefs that will never be on equal ground. They are fundamentally different. As long as you can both recognize that and not get personal there will be no issues. Having a civil discussion is awesome, but recognize that some things will never be "hashed out".

    Also, choosing to be a Christian means that you have to accept all of it, or none of it. Even if you don't agree with some of it.
    06-28-2013 12:22 PM
  3. Live2ride883's Avatar
    Can't you qualify it and say in your opinion, or per Christian doctrine, or per the Bible or the teaching of Jesus? If you say outright that "it is a sin" your putting a stamp on a whole group of people as being "sinners." I see that as no different as saying such horrible things as "African Americans should be slaves."
    All homosexuals are guilty of that sin.

    Homosexuality has nothing to do with African Americans being slaves.
    06-28-2013 12:24 PM
  4. jdbii's Avatar
    What difference would that make, though, honestly? It wouldn't change the context of his statement at all. His beliefs are being expressed either way, and if that's how they come across to you (as you said they did) then qualifying them like you said also won't change that.

    You're both expressing opinions and beliefs that will never be on equal ground. They are fundamentally different. As long as you can both recognize that and not get personal there will be no issues. Having a civil discussion is awesome, but recognize that some things will never be "hashed out".

    Also, choosing to be a Christian means that you have to accept all of it, or none of it. Even if you don't agree with some of it.
    Qualifying them won't change his personal beliefs, but his personal beliefs don't universally apply, and by qualifying them you are at least showing some degree of respect, dignity and humanity for the other party. It is very harsh, I mean extremely hurtful and harsh, to be called a 'sinner' for something you have no control over.
    06-28-2013 12:31 PM
  5. return_0's Avatar
    Homosexuality is a sin plain and simple. I believe that I am supposed to hate sin, but care for the sinner.

    As for not being able to choose who you fall in love with, if that was true then we would all be with the person that first awakened feelings of love within us. We are designed to procreate, there is no way that 2 men or 2 women can create a life naturally the way it was intended.

    I take offense at being called a bigot, and being referred to as hate filled. This is simply not true.
    Dang. What religion makes a specific gene acquisition a sin?

    Sent from my pure Google Nexus 4 using Android Central Forums
    06-28-2013 12:34 PM
  6. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    Qualifying them won't change his personal beliefs, but his personal beliefs don't universally apply, and by qualifying them you are at least showing some degree of respect, dignity and humanity for the other party. It is very harsh, I mean extremely hurtful and harsh, to be called a 'sinner' for something you have no control over.
    I may be behind, but isn't the issue of having control over it also up in the air as it hasn't been scientifically proven either way? If it hasn't been proven, doesn't that also make it an opinion that should therefore also be qualified?

    I'm not stating personal beliefs, just merely trying to make sure all parties are represented (plus I like to think I'm pretty good at getting a point across without needing to state my beliefs).

    One could also argue that the issue as a whole is somewhat of a moot point since SCOTUS only resolved part of the argument? Nothing has been done to force states to do things one way or another. This only affects federal benefits, right?

    I will say one thing with regards to minorities as a whole...it doesn't matter what percentage of the population they make up, they are still entitled to representation and having their voices heard.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD
    06-28-2013 12:39 PM
  7. return_0's Avatar
    And, furthermore, while homosexuality may be a sin in your religion, you can't impose your religious beliefs on the rest of the country and its laws. If you want a religion-based and religion-dictated government, there are plenty of Middle Eastern dictatorial theocracies out there.

    Sent from my pure Google Nexus 4 using Android Central Forums
    06-28-2013 12:40 PM
  8. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    And, furthermore, while homosexuality may be a sin in your religion, you can't impose your religious beliefs on the rest of the country and its laws. If you want a religion-based and religion-dictated government, there are plenty of Middle Eastern dictatorial theocracies out there.

    Sent from my pure Google Nexus 4 using Android Central Forums
    Haven't we all learned that given the right circumstances anything can be voted in to law?

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD
    06-28-2013 12:48 PM
  9. jdbii's Avatar
    All homosexuals are guilty of that sin.
    I feel sorry for you. It is really sad that you choose to make that kind of statement outright. The world has changed right out from under you. You might be able to make that kind of statement without inviting heaps of scorn upon you today in 2013, but 5, 10, or 15 years from now that kind of statement standing on its own spoken anywhere will be regarded at extremely bigoted and reflect poorly on the speaker.

    When I was in the Navy in the 80's-90's, one of the things I am most proud of his I defended homosexuality in front of 20, 30 shipmates of mine. They were fighting words then. People hated my guts afterwards and they wanted to harm and physical hurt me. Yet I wasn't going to let a group of bigots dehumanize a whole group of people, especially when there were homosexuals among our ranks. In fact, a shipmate of mine was murdered while in the Navy and on his ship for being gay. I am just grateful that the world has come so far since the 90's and we live in a more equal society.
    06-28-2013 01:03 PM
  10. Live2ride883's Avatar
    I am not trying to force my religious beliefs on anyone, society and the homosexual community are trying to force me into accepting that their activity is "normal' well that won't happen.

    I also spent some time in the Navy, back then if you were homosexual you shouldn't have been in the military at all. It was a punishable offense under the UCMJ, as well as it being a crime to lie on your enlistment form.

    I was a BT2, and was working out in the space above the boiler room and I walked in on 2 individuals engaged in that type of behavior. I called the master at arms and reported both of them and they were kicked out.
    06-28-2013 01:13 PM
  11. GadgetGator's Avatar
    Yes, crystal clear.
    To be part of a movement and/or with the "in crowd" (well actually "out", in this case).

    Side note -
    Do you think politicians are suddenly favoring gay "marriage" because they really believe in it? Or isn't it more realistic that they're just fishing for votes. Remember Obama suddenly favored gay "marriage" just before the last election?
    That's just one, out of dozens of possible political examples.
    You usage of quotation marks around the word marriage is highly offensive. You might not agree with same sex marriages, but they are just as legal as a straight marriage. I won't put up with people demeaning other people's marriages in that way. But as to your questions, no doubt some politicians are just seeing the way the wind is blowing, but I think most people really do understand that in a country that brags about it's freedoms, that maybe it was about time we actually put our money where our mouth is. We've claimed that people have been equal throughout U.S. history, but we have never actually put that in practice. Instead we have targeted various groups for discrimination and treated them as unequal. It's very hypocritical.

    As for Obama, he always favored equal rights for gay people. You can tell by his actions. He just masked that with all the evolving B.S. in order to make sure that he won the first Presidential election. I fully expected him to do more of the same for the second one as well, but perhaps he thought the risk of alienating gay voters was greater then the risk of alienating other people who might not vote for him based on that. Or perhaps he just couldn't live with himself lying over his true beliefs anymore. But no matter the reason, he will go down in the history books as the first President to ever publicly support gay people. And that is both amazing and historic. He's done more for the gay community then all other Presidents who have come before him, COMBINED.

    I don't understand how someone can be deeply religious and gay at the same time.
    Have you even tried? For example, have you talked to any gay Christians or straight Christians that support gay people???

    Homosexuality is a sin plain and simple. I believe that I am supposed to hate sin, but care for the sinner.
    Not so plain and simple. Your belief does not make things factual. Nor do you have the right to impose your religious beliefs onto others. If you want a theocracy, then you would need to move to another country that has such a thing. But the United States certainly is not one of those countries. But even if your views were true, I haven't seen any of that caring part from you. Only claims that gay people should be hidden away. You also haven't answered anyone's questions on when you chose to be straight, or any of my "ignorant" points which you failed to explain what was wrong with any of them.

    As for not being able to choose who you fall in love with, if that was true then we would all be with the person that first awakened feelings of love within us. We are designed to procreate, there is no way that 2 men or 2 women can create a life naturally the way it was intended.
    Nope. Is is true that you don't choose. You don't look at a person and think..."hey, I think I will fall in love with that person over there", it just happens to you. You don't chose what to be attracted to either. That also just happens. As for the notion that we are designed to procreate, okay, if that is what you are basing your marriage claims off of, why do we let older people get married to one another? Why do we let infertile couples get married to one another? Why is there no requirement that said marriage produce a certain number of children???

    I take offense at being called a bigot, and being referred to as hate filled. This is simply not true.
    While I agree with that, I take offense at being called a sinner, being told my feelings are a choice, or that I should remain in my house hidden away and only be let out when I conform to what you think is acceptable.

    All homosexuals are guilty of that sin.
    More inaccurate offensiveness from you. People are gay long long before they become sexually active or are even aware that sex exist. Additionally, a person can be celibate and still be gay the same way a heterosexual person can be celebrate but still straight.

    Haven't we all learned that given the right circumstances anything can be voted in to law?
    Maybe, but by the same token, that thing can still be unconstitutional or illegal later down the road. Such as Prop 8. A majority voting on the rights of minority goes against Constitutional protections.
    jdbii and msndrstood like this.
    06-28-2013 01:28 PM
  12. jdbii's Avatar
    I may be behind, but isn't the issue of having control over it also up in the air as it hasn't been scientifically proven either way? If it hasn't been proven, doesn't that also make it an opinion that should therefore also be qualified?

    I'm not stating personal beliefs, just merely trying to make sure all parties are represented (plus I like to think I'm pretty good at getting a point across without needing to state my beliefs).

    One could also argue that the issue as a whole is somewhat of a moot point since SCOTUS only resolved part of the argument? Nothing has been done to force states to do things one way or another. This only affects federal benefits, right?

    I will say one thing with regards to minorities as a whole...it doesn't matter what percentage of the population they make up, they are still entitled to representation and having their voices heard.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD
    A philosophy major once explained to me the problem of trying to prove a negative. I couldn't quite follow, but it was within the context of people asking the President to prove his birth certificate wasn't a forgery. Even if you produce all the evidence in the world that it is not a forgery, somebody can turn around and then say prove to me that that evidence isn't false.

    I don't know if scientist will ever be able to prove homosexuality isn't a choice, but even with all the evidence in the world detractors will still believe its a choice. It is very easy to turn the argument on its head and ask it from the other angle (as many in this thread has already done so) and ask, "scientifically prove to me that being hetero was choice." It is so silly. It is like saying you are three years old and decided to take your firetruck or elmo doll with you when departing the house for grandmas, and after you decide to take Elmo you then ask yourself if you want to be gay or straight and then decide as Mom straps you in and her bosom is in your face, heck Mom's prettier I think I'll be straight.

    I am not exactly sure what you meant when you said the whole argument is "somewhat moot," but the work has only just begun and now there is going to be a very long road ahead with a lot of obstacles to overcome. There is workplace discrimination, parental rights, equality under tax laws, only 12 states gays can legally marry and the list goes on and on. In many place in the world it is illegal to be a homosexual and homosexuals can be be legally executed in some countries. Many Americans might feel like that is not our fight to impose our standards overseas, but for many of us it is a human rights issue, but it will pertain to those who apply for refugee status based on facing death for being a homosexual.

    I understand that you weren't expressing your personal views but just trying to make sure all parties were fairly represented and I applaud you for that.
    06-28-2013 01:29 PM
  13. Jennifer Stough's Avatar
    I am not trying to force my religious beliefs on anyone, society and the homosexual community are trying to force me into accepting that their activity is "normal' well that won't happen.

    I also spent some time in the Navy, back then if you were homosexual you shouldn't have been in the military at all. It was a punishable offense under the UCMJ, as well as it being a crime to lie on your enlistment form.

    I was a BT2, and was working out in the space above the boiler room and I walked in on 2 individuals engaged in that type of behavior. I called the master at arms and reported both of them and they were kicked out.
    Since I won't be the one moderating this thread anymore, I feel it is safe to express my belief, then. Kevin, if im out of line, just let me know and I'll step out.

    The DADT was repealled because it was unconstitutional. For some one who adamantly supports the 2nd amendment, I would like to believe you would support the whole bill of rights, not just the ones that apply to you, which from this statement, it does not seem so.

    Do we remember the separation of church and state? the idea is to not infringe on another's rights because they may not have the same beliefs as us. Bringing your religion into a war of equal rights is inappropriate.

    Your guns make people uncomfortable, but you are within your constitutional rights to bear them.

    Sent from my HTC6435LVW using AC Forums mobile app
    jdbii, Ry, msndrstood and 3 others like this.
    06-28-2013 01:31 PM
  14. GadgetGator's Avatar
    I am not trying to force my religious beliefs on anyone
    You said gay people shouldn't be themselves outside their home...that is definitely an attempt to force your religious beliefs on someone. So would be voting against their marriage at a ballot box.

    society and the homosexual community are trying to force me into accepting that their activity is "normal' well that won't happen.
    How so? You can continue to shake your fist at gay people all you want. It won't get you any further then, say how the KKK feels about black civil rights, but you are still entitled to your opinions all you want. However, like I said before, you should at least try to educate yourself on some things and not be spouting off 1950's era propaganda that wasn't even true back then.
    jdbii likes this.
    06-28-2013 01:35 PM
  15. GadgetGator's Avatar
    Thought I would inject a bit of levity into the discussion with this cover. I found it pretty funny. Although it does put things into perspective. There are real life couples siting on couches across the United States whose futures hang in the balance based on what Supreme Courts do. Including some friends of mine who are a bi-national couple and as such have had problems with immigration in ways that no straight couple would. The ways discrimination impacts real people out there like that, should never be forgotten.

    jdbii, msndrstood and JHBThree like this.
    06-28-2013 01:43 PM
  16. jdbii's Avatar
    I am not trying to force my religious beliefs on anyone, society and the homosexual community are trying to force me into accepting that their activity is "normal' well that won't happen.

    I also spent some time in the Navy, back then if you were homosexual you shouldn't have been in the military at all. It was a punishable offense under the UCMJ, as well as it being a crime to lie on your enlistment form.

    I was a BT2, and was working out in the space above the boiler room and I walked in on 2 individuals engaged in that type of behavior. I called the master at arms and reported both of them and they were kicked out.
    True, homosexuality was illegal under the UCMJ back then but you surely knew many others gay shipmates. At least I did. The thing is it is hard to ask a 17 or 18 year old to be honest about their sexuality when they've lived in fear their whole life and have been conditioned to hide it and be ashamed of it.

    I don't think anyone is asking you to accept anything as "normal" per your personal belief system. You are free to have your own morals and standards.
    06-28-2013 01:47 PM
  17. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    @gadgetgator For sure not all laws that are passed will pass the test of the courts, but they need to get there first, and if they can't get there it doesn't matter. Look how long it took for DOMA to get there. Getting a law passed is far easier than getting it repealed, or struck down, but the courts. It's probably easier (I would need to do some research, so this is a guess), to have a new Congress repeal the law than try to get it struck down by SCOTUS (or a lesser court).

    @jdbii My statement about scientific proof is based on the assumption (yeah, I know) that the proof itself has been vetted by more than once lab and/or source, hasn't been refuted by any other major studies, etc. Generally, that it has been accepted by the scientific community as true and accurate. At that point, someone can choose not to believe it, but that doesn't make it NOT a scientific fact.

    As for the "moot point" it's like this....we don't directly vote for Justices on the court, so really, we're kind of at their mercy when it comes to things like this, and rely on them to exercise sound judgement when it comes to constitutionality of law. Since we have no choice but to accept that, the assumption can be made that if it were to ever directly come to them in a case, they would uphold gay marriage. I'm not sure why they chose not to tackle that this time around...oh wait...i do have one idea. They want SOME things to remain the power of individual states to decide. I'm ok with that, honestly, since I don't want the Federal government sticking their nose in everything (wasn't the idea to have a somewhat limited Federal government?). Eventually they will have to tackle the issue, or somehow force all states to recognize any marriage done in any other state, so I'm sure we'll get there eventually.


    Even if homosexuality is proven TO BE A CHOICE, doesn't everybody have the freedom to choose? Take religion and politics out of the argument completely, and then tell me that it's right or fair to take away the basic right to choose. No matter what side of the aisle you're in with regards to gay marriage, look at is as a choice. SImple. Choice. When has it ever been ok to take away the right to choose? (don't bring up abortion, that topic WILL NOT be in this thread. it's been discussed before in other threads)
    jdbii likes this.
    06-28-2013 01:52 PM
  18. GadgetGator's Avatar
    I honestly do not know why this issue of choice keeps coming up in every single debate about this subject. Anti-gay people grasping at straws? It's real red herring and entirely irrelevant to the subject of marriage or rights. You just don't chose whom you are attracted to or whom you love. The mere suggestion that someone does runs counter to logic and common sense. The real irony here is that most anti-gay people are anti-gay out of some sort of religious belief which is definitely something that is a choice. Yet, that choice is still protected under the law. So right there that shoots down any argument that gay people should not have the same legal rights because they might "choose" a different path.
    06-28-2013 02:05 PM
  19. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    All homosexuals are guilty of that sin.

    Homosexuality has nothing to do with African Americans being slaves.
    I am not trying to force my religious beliefs on anyone, society and the homosexual community are trying to force me into accepting that their activity is "normal' well that won't happen.

    I also spent some time in the Navy, back then if you were homosexual you shouldn't have been in the military at all. It was a punishable offense under the UCMJ, as well as it being a crime to lie on your enlistment form.

    I was a BT2, and was working out in the space above the boiler room and I walked in on 2 individuals engaged in that type of behavior. I called the master at arms and reported both of them and they were kicked out.
    Those two statements are contradicting. The bolded ones. One is stated as a fact, one which is rooted in Christianity. That, in and of itself, makes it an opinion, since not everyone believes in Christianity. But, you do have the CHOICE to use that as a basis for your beliefs. Great country we live in, right? You don't have to accept anything as "normal", you just have to accept that everyone should have the same rights as everyone else. Honestly, if you can't accept that, then how can you defend any other right granted to any other individual by the Constitution?
    06-28-2013 02:32 PM
  20. palandri's Avatar
    It takes religion a long time to change or alter their beliefs. Wasn't there an astronomer in like the 1500's that was imprisoned by the Vatican for saying the earth orbited the sun?
    06-28-2013 02:40 PM
  21. jdbii's Avatar
    It takes religion a long time to change or alter their beliefs. Wasn't there an astronomer in like the 1500's that was imprisoned by the Vatican for saying the earth orbited the sun?
    1600's. It was Galileo. The church finally pardoned him in 1992.
    palandri and GadgetGator like this.
    06-28-2013 02:52 PM
  22. Jennifer Stough's Avatar
    We could always go back to the Animal Farm days and say all people are created equal, some just more so than others.

    But that's a false statement. Again with the church and state, EVERYONE should have the same rights, regardless of their or your beliefs.

    Sent from my HTC6435LVW using AC Forums mobile app
    GadgetGator and return_0 like this.
    06-28-2013 02:52 PM
  23. palandri's Avatar
    1600's. It was Galileo. The church finally pardoned him in 1992.
    LOL! Ya that took a while.
    06-28-2013 02:58 PM
  24. pappy53's Avatar
    According to the Bible, homosexuality is an abomination to God. God does not hate the sinner, just the sin. What I do as a Christian is pray for these people, but never judge them, as we are directed not to judge by the Lord.
    Live2ride883 likes this.
    06-28-2013 03:14 PM
  25. return_0's Avatar
    I am not trying to force my religious beliefs on anyone, society and the homosexual community are trying to force me into accepting that their activity is "normal' well that won't happen.
    No one's trying to force anything on you. You, however, are imposing your beliefs in the way that you (and your prejudiced friends) are trying to strip a group of people of their constitutional rights.

    Sent from my pure Google Nexus 4 using Android Central Forums
    GadgetGator likes this.
    06-28-2013 03:39 PM
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