06-30-2014 01:17 AM
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  1. badbrad17's Avatar
    So sorry for your loss cdmjlt369. My father had Pneumonia and while they were operating on him they found Cancer. My mother had Parkinson's and Alzheimer's. Since my father had already passed I was her only care taker until Hospice came in to help out a little in the final month. One of the hardest parts was hearing my mother beg me to please let her take her own life. She would cry and say that she just couldn't live like that anymore. She would plead with me to end her life. Of course I couldn't but just hearing your own mother begging you with those words is something that I'll never forget. I cannot believe that a god would create such suffering, or turn a blind eye to it. There are much better explanations for such suffering in the world.
    Thanks for sharing this really sad story. That is really a tough thing to go through. My grandmother had cancer as well and I watched her go from healthy and vibrant to a withered shell in a matter of months.

    If I can give you my opinion on this topic and how it relates to God.

    Death, sickness, disease etc. Are all part of sin. Not that the sickness comes specifically from being better or worse than someone who is more evil. Otherwise serial killers would be dying of cancer at a higher rate. But when sin entered the world death came with it. This is why God told Adam and Eve that is they ate from the tree of life they would surely die. They didn't drop dead on the spot yet they did die after many years just like all of us.

    You asked why does God do this or allow this to happen? We see horrible things. If he is merciful then why doesn't he intervene?

    Well I believe that if he did we would lose the free system and just become puppets. The wheel of time has been put in place and we are now all part of it. God hates suffering like all of us. But as soon as he becomes involved in changing the natural outcome of what we put in place we are then truly being controlled. I know it seems like the opposite but it's not.

    If we look at the big picture according to the Bible our physical death is only a stage that can actually free us from the horrible things this world pushes on us. God wanted an iron clad process that would allow us gain freedom so he actually took the same suffering upon himself and died in a horrible way unjustly. It is this act that is the crux of our existence. He took suffering now so that after we die we don't have to suffer.

    Not sure if that all made sense, but that is my take on it.

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    AngelArs likes this.
    07-07-2013 01:59 PM
  2. GadgetGator's Avatar
    Well I believe that if he did we would lose the free system and just become puppets. The wheel of time has been put in place and we are now all part of it. God hates suffering like all of us. But as soon as he becomes involved in changing the natural outcome of what we put in place we are then truly being controlled. I know it seems like the opposite but it's not.
    As soon as God made anything at all, he became involved in changing the natural outcome of things. I see no difference here. To stand by and to allow people to suffer, or babies to be born with two heads or whatever, is to say that no, in fact you really don't care. If I see you are suffering and I give you some food, lend you money, give you shelter or tend to your wounds I haven't taken away your free will. If anything, I am adding to it so you may continue on with your life and do what you want.
    msndrstood likes this.
    07-07-2013 02:39 PM
  3. badbrad17's Avatar
    As soon as God made anything at all, he became involved in changing the natural outcome of things. I see no difference here. To stand by and to allow people to suffer, or babies to be born with two heads or whatever, is to say that no, in fact you really don't care. If I see you are suffering and I give you some food, lend you money, give you shelter or tend to your wounds I haven't taken away your free will. If anything, I am adding to it so you may continue on with your life and do what you want.
    This is true but intervention doesn't always fix the problem. A bandaid doesn't fix the wound. God is looking to the end. Our life here is but a test to see if we are willing and able to accept what he is offering us. There is also a reward in the struggle itself.

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    07-07-2013 02:46 PM
  4. badbrad17's Avatar
    As soon as God made anything at all, he became involved in changing the natural outcome of things. I see no difference here. To stand by and to allow people to suffer, or babies to be born with two heads or whatever, is to say that no, in fact you really don't care. If I see you are suffering and I give you some food, lend you money, give you shelter or tend to your wounds I haven't taken away your free will. If anything, I am adding to it so you may continue on with your life and do what you want.
    I will also pose this question to you. Do you love life? Do you appreciate that you are alive? Would you rather wish you had never existed if you knew that in a number of years you would die a painful death? Or would you be willing to endure that pain to be able to have shared other great things that life offers even with death as the eventual outcome?

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    07-07-2013 02:52 PM
  5. Farish's Avatar
    I have stayed out of this thread because it derailed away from the civil liberties aspect of this.

    So far in all this discussion about the religious implications nobody has discuss where the Bible says it is ok to discriminate against homosexuals or anybody for any reason(No it doesn't anywhere).
    And in the end that is what Doma was about.
    07-07-2013 03:00 PM
  6. AngelArs's Avatar
    Thanks for sharing this really sad story. That is really a tough thing to go through. My grandmother had cancer as well and I watched her go from healthy and vibrant to a withered shell in a matter of months.
    Sorry to hear about your grandmother Brad. I can only imagine how you must feel watching her get sicker each day like that. My father was one of the healthiest people that I knew (everyone thought that he'd live to 100) then, literally in a matter of a few days, he became a shell of a man. After his surgery I walked into his room and literally didn't recognize him. He went from someone who was robust and heathy, to someone that looked like they were from a concentration camp. He was suddenly just skin and bones.

    He knew how sick he'd become. He was bed ridden. When I brought him home I would give him his medication on a timely schedule and then go downstairs to cook
    something for him. What I didn't know was that he was throwing his medication away. Long story short several months after he passed I was cleaning his room and moved his bed so I could vacuum under it. That's when I found a pile of pills that he refused to take. I found others in his nightstand. He was always a very religious man, read the bible often and went to church like clockwork, but toward the end he saw too much, realized the real truth, and stopped believing. I don't believe in a traditional god but I do believe in a universal life force of sorts. I believe in kindness. I believe in love. I believe in integrity, I believe in facts and I believe in generosity. I don't need a mythological being to give my life meaning. What I do with my life, defending those without a voice, eradicating discrimination in the world, and the love that I share with friends and society, all give my life meaning.
    07-07-2013 03:31 PM
  7. AngelArs's Avatar
    So far in all this discussion about the religious implications nobody has discuss where the Bible says it is ok to discriminate against homosexuals or anybody for any reason(No it doesn't anywhere). And in the end that is what Doma was about.
    Correct. In-fact it's just the opposite, it talks about NOT being discriminatory. Many just cherry pick and don't follow it. Here are some examples;


    Galatians 5:14 :
    For the whole law is fulfilled in one word. You shall love your neighbor as yourself.


    Matthew 7:12 :
    So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets

    Acts 10:34 :
    "So Peter opened his mouth and said: Truly I understand that God shows no partiality."

    Proverbs 6:16-19 :
    "There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers."

    Mark 12:31 :
    "The second is this: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than this.
    07-07-2013 03:51 PM
  8. AngelArs's Avatar
    Do you love life?
    Define your meaning of that kind of love.

    Do you appreciate that you are alive?
    When I can help someone else, yes.

    Would you rather wish you had never existed if you knew that in a number of years you would die a painful death?
    I don't believe that a person suffering like that (for example; terminally ill) is living life. I believe that is cruel and unjust punishment to them.
    07-07-2013 04:02 PM
  9. badbrad17's Avatar
    Sorry to hear about your grandmother Brad. I can only imagine how you must feel watching her get sicker each day like that. My father was one of the healthiest people that I knew (everyone thought that he'd live to 100) then, literally in a matter of a few days, he became a shell of a man. After his surgery I walked into his room and literally didn't recognize him. He went from someone who was robust and heathy, to someone that looked like they were from a concentration camp. He was suddenly just skin and bones.

    He knew how sick he'd become. He was bed ridden. When I brought him home I would give him his medication on a timely schedule and then go downstairs to cook
    something for him. What I didn't know was that he was throwing his medication away. Long story short several months after he passed I was cleaning his room and moved his bed so I could vacuum under it. That's when I found a pile of pills that he refused to take. I found others in his nightstand. He was always a very religious man, read the bible often and went to church like clockwork, but toward the end he saw too much, realized the real truth, and stopped believing. I don't believe in a traditional god but I do believe in a universal life force of sorts. I believe in kindness. I believe in love. I believe in integrity, I believe in facts and I believe in generosity. I don't need a mythological being to give my life meaning. What I do with my life, defending those without a voice, eradicating discrimination in the world, and the love that I share with friends and society, all give my life meaning.
    Ya death in this form is certainly hard to deal with. My Grandma was 86 and looked 70 or less. Very healthy too.

    It's a shame your dad decided to just let things go. I have seen how some couples don't want to live after they lose their spouse. They become like one person after so many years. They can't handle the emptiness I suppose.

    We have to find our own paths. I have gone against the grain on many of my beliefs. I am really not the normal Christian. I am not what most people would call religious although that may not look that way based on our discussion. I have very clear beliefs and they do line up with what the Bible says. But so much of organized religion doesn't jive with the Bible. I'm not just talking about hypocrisy etc. But a lot of churches and religious organizations are more like the Pharisees than Christ. If we look purely at the life of Jesus I think it is pretty easy to see how accepting and caring he was. He hung out with the fisherman, prostitutes and tax collectors. He wasn't religious yet had incredible wisdom that even at an early age baffled the church leaders.

    Those things that you hold as valuable in your life are all the same things Jesus taught us to do and live by. Unfortunately I do believe that there are other forces at work that want us to fail. After I became a Christian I never realized how hard it was to do the right thing until I actively tried to do it. I asked myself for a long time "why am I fighting against myself"? It always baffled me. It's not the big things it's the small things. It's easy to not be a murderer but it's harder to be compassionate all the time. Or to just be selfless in general. We are inherently selfish. The paradox is love. Where does it come from? Where is the source of compassion? It doesn't with with self preservation or survival of the fittest.

    The bible says that as Christians we are at war with ourselves. We do the very thing we hate. Our flesh actively tries to work against us.

    So how would you explain this experience?

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    07-07-2013 06:36 PM
  10. badbrad17's Avatar
    Define your meaning of that kind of love.


    When I can help someone else, yes.


    I don't believe that a person suffering like that (for example; terminally ill) is living life. I believe that is cruel and unjust punishment to them.
    I sense you may feel I'm trying to trap you into saying something. That wasn't my intention. What I was trying to define is that sometimes even in the face of difficulty we still value the life we have warts and all.

    I had some close friends who lost their child early in life. The child suffered, but even afterwards they said they cherished the time they had with their son so much that they wouldn't change anything. They thanked God for this gift of a short life.

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    07-07-2013 06:53 PM
  11. GadgetGator's Avatar
    I will also pose this question to you. Do you love life? Do you appreciate that you are alive? Would you rather wish you had never existed if you knew that in a number of years you would die a painful death? Or would you be willing to endure that pain to be able to have shared other great things that life offers even with death as the eventual outcome?
    Why does one have to go with the other? Why cannot we have a happy life without the pain and suffering part? I don't think it's necessary and do not understand why a higher power would inflict it on people he supposedly cares about. If I intentionally gave you some horrible disease, would you think I cared about you? OR, if I could do something about it, but chose to stand by and watch you suffer doing nothing, would you think I cared about you? If we were in the desert and you were dying of thirst in the heat, and I had water but did not offer it to you and just let you die, would you think I cared about you???

    Under your religious beliefs you state we have freewill, but really that isn't entirely true. We don't get to hop in a time machine and say "Eve, don't do it"!! We don't get to avoid death. We don't get to decide what day we die (unless you take your own life of course), there's so many things we do not get to decide. So I wish people would stop saying we have free will. I will say if your version of religion is true, then we only have free will up to a point.
    07-07-2013 08:46 PM
  12. badbrad17's Avatar
    Just when I thought we'd reached a well-off-ish place with the resolution to be nice to people, not hate people and keep religion out of politics... all of the sudden a bunch of links to pseudo science articles detailing the societal risks of same sex marriages, including health risks, blah blah started showing up in my Google + feed. I had a connection form that I've been kicking around for a long time but I might be able to articulate now:

    I can't say I don't understand the irrational fear of things that you think might disagree with your holy book... but why the obsession with it? Why the tearing your hair out, "its evil therefore we must convince everyone its evil!" on this issue, but not on wholesale robbery of the poor the book says to exalt, or the straight up murder of "the wretched" for profit... where is the war cry against the oppression of the weak by the powerful.. you certainly scream out loud enough when the weak attempt to fight oppression.. but always on the side of the boot, never on the face being stomped on, never question the stronger status-quo position, because despite their every action being the most "in Jesus' face" kind of duplicity and abuse, they say that they're "a Christian". That hypocrisy is why you get such a visceral reaction.. that and the cowardice.

    What is it about homosexuals, or minorities, or the poor, or women, or whatever, that makes Christians willing to hate lie and kill to suppress them? Where is that kind of zeal when it comes to defending things that Jesus is quoted for, like honesty, tolerance, humility and forgiveness?
    I believe that people are being deceived. If there really is a force of good (God) and evil (Satan) then they very well could be at war. And we are the participants. If there is truth to the God of the Bible and Satan really was a fallen angel then who do you think the would his time on? Anyone outside of the truth is already lost, so he would spend his time trying to deceive and corrupt those that do believe in God and Christ.

    This of course is just an opinion. Insert disclaimer text for those who find offense in opinion that isn't clearly noted.

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    07-07-2013 09:38 PM
  13. badbrad17's Avatar
    I agree. Those are questions that I can never seem to get a good answer to from any of my more religious friends, besides 'everything happens for a reason', which is a rather trite response to someone in pain.

    In my case it was my grandmother. Fell in her apartment and had to go into a nursing home. While there, the staff didn't make sure she moved frequently enough, and my grandma suffered multiple strokes. She then went into a hospital where things were looking up, only for her to suffer even more strokes that damaged her brain beyond repair. The only choice we had, because it was the only thing she would have wanted, was to pull the feeding tube and let her go. In a span of two weeks she went from perfectly healthy to being on her deathbed.

    I still cannot reconcile the fact that God would allow someone that did genuine good while she was alive, and served her family and community without complaint, to die in such an unceremonious and painful way. She certainly didn't deserve it. Myself and the rest of my family didn't either.

    Then, couple the unbridled hate I have to endure because I am gay, something that I did not choose, and you can see why I have a hard time believing there's an omniscient being up there with a plan for me.

    Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk 2
    First of all, sorry for the pain you've had to endure. Anyone who experiences it doesn't wish it on anyone.

    As for the everything happens for a reason thing. I did try to address this. But it could have been in another thread. I would argue that everything doesn't necessary happen because God is trying to hurt or punish us. We are nearly byproducts of something that has to continue until the right time. There is an end.

    I also wouldn't try to measure how we should be treated by God based on our actions on this planet because no matter how good we are perfection is the bar. It is an unattainable standard. We were flawed when Adam and Eve disobeyed. Perfection is the standard that God adheres to. He is perfectly righteous and perfectly just. Anything else would destroy who he is. If that is even possible. Your family members may have been amazingly loving generous people 99% of the time but the 1% where they weren't is what breaks the cycle and causes a division between us and God. There has to be retribution for our failure in order to either justify or eliminate what sin does. God won't live in that environment. We are in a wheel that moves based on laws that can't be changed without cause. God is the final judge of this. We can disagree all day but we really end up being like argumentative children trying to tell our parents what we think is right. And if you think I haven't been in the same place as you then you would be wrong. We all question why this happens or why a tornado or hurricane killed all those people but we have to understand that our world and existence are part of a bigger process that we can't stop.

    The solution is what happens after our bodies die. We have the option to accept God and work towards building a relationship with him now or deal with it after we die. There is hope in the final solution if we choose to accept it. Gay or not, God loves you and does have a plan for you.

    I have a story to tell you. I will PM you when I have time. Cheers.

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    07-07-2013 10:05 PM
  14. badbrad17's Avatar
    Why does one have to go with the other? Why cannot we have a happy life without the pain and suffering part? I don't think it's necessary and do not understand why a higher power would inflict it on people he supposedly cares about. If I intentionally gave you some horrible disease, would you think I cared about you? OR, if I could do something about it, but chose to stand by and watch you suffer doing nothing, would you think I cared about you? If we were in the desert and you were dying of thirst in the heat, and I had water but did not offer it to you and just let you die, would you think I cared about you???
    This is an excellent point... And one that I think I have a answer for. At least what I believe to be a solution.

    If we go through the story as it is told, God really had an option to not create us or to look at how he could create us with the necessary ability to have freewill and still be able to exist in his presence without sin. We can't have the option of choice without both good and evil being present. So Satan is a important part in getting us to where we need to be. The crazy part is that God also saw that he could not justify our failures without his willful sacrifice of his own life.

    The Bible says that through one man (Adam) sin entered the world and through one man (Jesus) it was destroyed.

    The cycle has to be in place for us to get to the end. Any pain and suffering we have to endure on this earth is worth our reward at the end.

    Do you know that almost every disciple of Jesus was martyred? They were stoned, burned, boiled in oil, crucified and other atrocities. Peter was actually crucified upside down because hey didn't think he was worthy of being crucified like Jesus. Pretty dedicated people who walked and talked to him. They knew that it was worth it to allow evil and death to defeat them for the short time. God would take care of them in the end.

    Under your religious beliefs you state we have freewill, but really that isn't entirely true. We don't get to hop in a time machine and say "Eve, don't do it"!! We don't get to avoid death. We don't get to decide what day we die (unless you take your own life of course), there's so many things we do not get to decide. So I wish people would stop saying we have free will. I will say if your version of religion is true, then we only have free will up to a point.
    I wasn't saying we have power to bend our destiny in every way. What I meant was that we have the choice to choose if we do good or evil. We also have the freewill to choose or reject God and Jesus' sacrifice. The option of choosing good or evil lives in us. If we willingly decide to disobey what we know is right then we are guilty. The Bible says our own heart condemns us. There is a point where innocence and accountability occur. It is this moment when we hang in the balance between righteous perfection and death. We all fail in this moment yet have a way out. It doesn't mean we have to become religious freaks. I swear I feel like I am some kind of religious zealot lately and truly I am not. I rarely even go to church.

    But this I believe. What Jesus did is a gift that is free. Accept that Jesus died on the cross to save you from your sins and believe that God raised him from the dead and you will be saved. Seems pretty easy. Sorry if I sound like a preaching *****.

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    07-07-2013 10:37 PM
  15. AngelArs's Avatar
    It's a shame your dad decided to just let things go.
    I am not sure what you meant by this. If you're referring to his not taking his medicine, then I agree. I have studied nutrition and medicine for many decades and no doubt I would have been able to help him regain his health. My mother had cancer and I was able to help her regain her health by removing toxins in her life and changing her nutrition. If you are referring to his no longer believing in religion, then I would say it was good that he was no longer wasting what little life he had left on it, and turned his focus on more important things. I think one of his few regrets was that he didn't do this sooner.

    I have seen how some couples don't want to live after they lose their spouse.
    I'm not sure what it is but I have heard so many stores about one spouse dying, and then soon afterward the other dies. I'd be willing to bet that this happens quite regularly.

    If we look purely at the life of Jesus I think it is pretty easy to see how accepting and caring he was.
    if you're talking about how he supposedly lived then why would anyone need to look at his life, when his life was copied from other religions (I don't believe in coincidence). Why wouldn't someone just go to the source, for example; The Buddha. You might be surprised at just how much the Christian religion stole from other religions, and the Buddhist religion was one of their favorite victims, so if anyone would want to look at the life of anyone figure, and follow it as a path, they wouldn't need to look at a figure who copied nearly everything from other religions, they would go to the source, and in this case at least one example would be The Buddha. Gautama Buddha actually existed, and reading about his life you cant help but to be inspired. There is such wisdom in everything that he says.

    Two of my favorite quotes are; Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth. and Thousands of candles can be lighted from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by being shared.

    The bible says that as Christians we are at war with ourselves.
    Funny you should mention this. It's another teaching from the Buddha. It was taught like around 500 years before christianity ever begun. If you are ever interested in learning more about this amazing man, then this PBS video is a good place to start (click button on lower right corner to make it full screen).

    http://www.pbs.org/thebuddha/
    07-07-2013 10:54 PM
  16. AngelArs's Avatar
    I sense you may feel I'm trying to trap you into saying something.
    You caught that huh? LOL specific answers require specific questions. Just wanted to make sure we were on the same page so there'd be no misunderstanding.

    What I was trying to define is that sometimes even in the face of difficulty we still value the life we have warts and all.
    There cannot be joy without suffering, just like there cannot be life without death. Only in the darkness can you see the stars.
    badbrad17 likes this.
    07-07-2013 11:02 PM
  17. badbrad17's Avatar
    [FONT=verdana]I am not sure what you meant by this. If you're referring to his not taking his medicine, then I agree. I have studied nutrition and medicine for many decades and no doubt I would have been able to help him regain his health. My mother had cancer and I was able to help her regain her health by removing toxins in her life and changing her nutrition. If you are referring to his no longer believing in religion, then I would say it was good that he was no longer wasting what little life he had left on it, and turned his focus on more important things. I think one of his few regrets was that he didn't do this sooner.
    Ya I was only referring to him not taking the medicine.

    I'm not sure what it is but I have heard so many stores about one spouse dying, and then soon afterward the other dies. I'd be willing to bet that this happens quite regularly.
    Me too. Many of my friends parents have had this happen.

    if you're talking about how he supposedly lived then why would anyone need to look at his life, when his life was copied from other religions (I don't believe in coincidence). Why wouldn't someone just go to the source, for example; The Buddha. You might be surprised at just how much the Christian religion stole from other religions, and the Buddhist religion was one of their favorite victims, so if anyone would want to look at the life of anyone figure, and follow it as a path, they wouldn't need to look at a figure who copied nearly everything from other religions, they would go to the source, and in this case at least one example would be The Buddha. Gautama Buddha actually existed, and reading about his life you cant help but to be inspired. There is such wisdom in everything that he says. Two of my favorite quotes are; Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth. and Thousands of candles can be lighted from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by being shared.

    Funny you should mention this. It's another teaching from the Buddha. It was taught like around 500 years before christianity ever begun. If you are ever interested in learning more about this amazing man, then this PBS video is a good place to start (click button on lower right corner to make it full screen).

    [video]http://www.pbs.org/thebuddha/[/url]
    I agree that Buddha was very wise. But as far as copying goes I would have to disagree. Christianity is founded on Judaism which came far before Buddhism. And is the oldest religion next to Hinduism which I am not sure can be classified the same. There are similarities in many religions and if we look at the old testament prophecies they hold true in concept to so many others. Good philosophical ideas are just that and can be adapted to fit for many things, but I believe the source came from biblical teaching and Judaism.

    This of course is just my opinion. I have some knowledge of Buddhism but I will try to check out that video when I have time.

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    07-08-2013 12:50 AM
  18. badbrad17's Avatar
    You caught that huh? LOL specific answers require specific questions. Just wanted to make sure we were on the same page so there'd be no misunderstanding.

    There cannot be joy without suffering, just like there cannot be life without death. Only in the darkness can you see the stars.
    Wow its the second time we've agreed today. We're making progress. :thumbup:

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    07-08-2013 12:52 AM
  19. AngelArs's Avatar
    Ya I was only referring to him not taking the medicine.
    Yeah I know but I learn quick. My mother tried pulling the same stunt on me too and I caught her. Then she tried hiding the pills under her tongue and she'd spit them out after I'd walk out of the room. I caught her doing that too. I got upset and told her how important the medicine was, but she didn't seem to care. So I just started to hide her medicine in her applesauce (one of her favorites) and pudding. She never knew, and we never fought about it anymore.

    I agree that Buddha was very wise. But as far as copying goes I would have to disagree.
    Then you're disagreeing with history. Just to be up front I'm a long time member of the Joseph Campbell Foundation associate program and I have researched this very thoroughly. The list is long of the practices and rituals that the christians stole from other sources. Of course in those days it was common practice to plagiarize and it was one way they taught (spread) lessons. It is also well known that Rome was trading with India at that time and that's probably how they (the christians) learned about all this stuff. I'm sure there's a video about it. Would be much easier to post than to itemize all the things they stole from other sources. Have you ever heard of the Epic of Gilgamesh in tablet 11? I don't have the time right now to post more about it but here is something to get you started. Not sure where you live but in the States there used to be a well known Theologian named Peter Jennings. He conducted a expose on this topic and here is part of the conversation that he had with Professor Marvin Meyer who is a scholar of religion:

    Professor Marvin Meyer: "The conviction was in the mysteries that there is death and resurrection, just as crops go into the ground and die and come back again for a new season in a wonderful kind of way. So also in human life we go through a kind of death and resurrection."

    Peter Jennings: "Now hold it. Youre saying that the mystery cults had an influence on the Jesus story because people who wrote the Jesus story took an earlier story and passed it on via Jesus?"

    Professor Marvin Meyer: "I believe so. One of the greatest difficulties that early Christians had if they were going to cope with the reality of the crucifixion of Jesus is what do you do with that? I mean, how do you keep the movement going? How do you have some hope in the face of this kind of shameful and horrible death? And one of the things I believe that early Christians did is they took the model of the mystery religions; they took that story and retold that story as the story of Jesus."

    Will post more for you later if you need it.
    07-08-2013 01:46 AM
  20. badbrad17's Avatar
    Yeah I know but I learn quick. My mother tried pulling the same stunt on me too and I caught her. Then she tried hiding the pills under her tongue and she'd spit them out after I'd walk out of the room. I caught her doing that too. I got upset and told her how important the medicine was, but she didn't seem to care. So I just started to hide her medicine in her applesauce (one of her favorites) and pudding. She never knew, and we never fought about it anymore.


    Then you're disagreeing with history. Just to be up front I'm a long time member of the Joseph Campbell Foundation associate program and I have researched this very thoroughly. The list is long of the practices and rituals that the christians stole from other sources. Of course in those days it was common practice to plagiarize and it was one way they taught (spread) lessons. It is also well known that Rome was trading with India at that time and that's probably how they (the christians) learned about all this stuff. I'm sure there's a video about it. Would be much easier to post than to itemize all the things they stole from other sources. Have you ever heard of the Epic of Gilgamesh in tablet 11? I don't have the time right now to post more about it but here is something to get you started. Not sure where you live but in the States there used to be a well known Theologian named Peter Jennings. He conducted a expose on this topic and here is part of the conversation that he had with Professor Marvin Meyer who is a scholar of religion:

    Professor Marvin Meyer: "The conviction was in the mysteries that there is death and resurrection, just as crops go into the ground and die and come back again for a new season in a wonderful kind of way. So also in human life we go through a kind of death and resurrection."

    Peter Jennings: "Now hold it. Youre saying that the mystery cults had an influence on the Jesus story because people who wrote the Jesus story took an earlier story and passed it on via Jesus?"

    Professor Marvin Meyer: "I believe so. One of the greatest difficulties that early Christians had if they were going to cope with the reality of the crucifixion of Jesus is what do you do with that? I mean, how do you keep the movement going? How do you have some hope in the face of this kind of shameful and horrible death? And one of the things I believe that early Christians did is they took the model of the mystery religions; they took that story and retold that story as the story of Jesus."

    Will post more for you later if you need it.
    Again, really sorry about your mom. Tough to deal with that. You sound like you were a great son to them so they obviously raised you well.

    Thank you also for the info. I have heard a bit about Gilgamesh but after reading your link I did a bit of reading on it and on other Sumerian writings. Although this is all debatable my feeling is that the Gilgamesh story was a distortion of the original.

    The use of polytheism isn't accurate for what is believed for that time period. But also because his story doesn't line up with the consistent story that we find globally from nearly every culture it shows that it was probably a fabrication based on the original. Either way it does add to the validity of a epic flood.

    And although this is a Biblical example of 2 stories it is one based on Judaism and not Christianity. Not sure if you have others on that or not but I really love this stuff. I find it fascinating even if we may not agree.

    I did read from this website http://creation.mobi/noahs-flood-and-the-gilgamesh-epic

    Feel free to let me know if there is anything that stands out that you feel may be misrepresented as I would like your opinion on what is stated.

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    07-08-2013 03:25 AM
  21. pappy53's Avatar
    realized the real truth
    In your opinion. Don't state as fact.
    07-08-2013 11:23 AM
  22. badbrad17's Avatar
    In your opinion. Don't state as fact.
    I knew that's what he meant. We're trying to avoid the eye poking. :what:

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    07-08-2013 11:53 AM
  23. AngelArs's Avatar
    In your opinion.
    Sorry, not my opinion. I DID state it as fact because it is one. From his point of view he had wasted his time with religion. Many other people have come to this same realization too.
    07-08-2013 01:49 PM
  24. badbrad17's Avatar
    Sorry, not my opinion. I DID state it as fact because it is one. From his point of view he had wasted his time with religion. Many other people have come to this same realization too.
    ? Frown, sad face. :thumbdown:

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    07-08-2013 02:15 PM
  25. AngelArs's Avatar
    ? Frown, sad face. :thumbdown:
    Here, read it for yourself. IMO I think the guys sign about sheep sums it up quite well. "Meanwhile, the proportion of Americans who say they are religious has fallen from 73% in 2005 to 60% in 2011." Link.
    07-08-2013 02:42 PM
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