06-30-2014 01:17 AM
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  1. GadgetGator's Avatar
    . If you feel something needs to be clarified as fact then I am more than willing to do so. I have stated over and over that these are just things I have read and believe personally so I'm not sure what else I can do.
    I outlined the issue and even showed you two different examples one done as a belief and one stated more as if it were a fact. I don't know what more I can do either.

    Which brings us to this contradiction now:

    My comment was not supposed to characterize anything or anyone.
    VS:

    So based on this real life experience I have decided to believe that our sexuality is a choice.
    Hmmm, sounds like you are in fact characterizing everyone, including yourself with that statement.

    So let's get into that flawed reasoning....

    He had felt like he wasn't accepted by his father which caused him to crave physical attention from men while females did nothing for him.
    This is so outlandish it is difficult to even know where to begin. Unless he has some unhealthy incestuous feelings towards his father, not getting attention should have nothing to do with SEXUAL attraction. If it did, I venture to say there would be a LOT more gay people in the world. How many straight men do not relate to their fathers? Quite a few I would imagine from what I have seen, heard and read.

    I spoke to him after and he had explained that he had completely overcome his homosexual feelings
    Utter denial. Not to be overtly crude, but people don't "overcome" what sexually arouses them. Which is why they often say a certain body part has a mind of it's own. There is no amount of counseling in the world that would make me sexually attracted to a women. None. Zero. No offense to the ladies out there reading this, but I just don't even really even notice women when I walk down the street. They are for the most part, rather invisible to me and definitely do not catch my eye. Something like that, so deeply rooted is just not something that can be "fixed". It is who I am.

    So based on this real life experience I have decided to believe that our sexuality is a choice.
    And you are just wrong. The proof of that is not only my life but your own life as well. Do you think you could be happy having sex with a man? Does the idea excite you? Does it appeal to you? Could you envision a time when you walk down the street and men start looking hot to you? Where women fade into the background, but a good-looking guy makes you turn your head? Could you see yourself dating a man? Holding his hand romantically on the beach? Giving him a long passionate kiss? Cuddling with him in bed? Marrying him and having a family and growing old with him? Does any of that sound good? Does any of it even sound remotely possible for you? To say someone else's sexuality is a choice, is to say that yours is as well. If you could see yourself with a man just as easily as a women, then perhaps your points have some merit. If on the other hand any of those things above seem absolutely disgusting and out of the question to you, well, there's your answer.

    ]You are entitled to believe something else and you may have different experiences However there is one thing I have observed as I meet people from the gay community and through the media. There are apparently many similar stories from outspoken gay and lesbian people that have a tale of abuse or other tragic experiences that have formed who they are sexually.
    Now you have crossed over the line into offensive territory. Given our situations, it's likely that I know FAR more gay people then you do. Hundreds upon hundreds. And very very few of them were ever abused. I certainly was not. My partner was not. Conversely there are lots of straight people who have been. Why aren't they gay?
    jtc276 likes this.
    07-10-2013 07:38 PM
  2. Aquila's Avatar
    I think that non-heterosexuality is resultant from a combination of genetic and environmental factors, established early on enough in life that by the time you realize there is such a thing as "heterosexual", you either are or are not in that category. By not a choice, they mean very few if any people are waking up and saying, "I'll be gay!" and having that actually transpire in their lives. It's as much a part of them as your heterosexuality is to you, or as your eye color, attraction or revulsion to certain aromas, etc.

    This seems to me to just be either a paradigm or verbiage issue. Religion tends to view homosexuality as a behavior, and not a trait, while the same word in the educational realm is referring to the genetic and environmental differences that govern the person's responses to stimuli, long before a conscious thought or decision is made.
    badbrad17 likes this.
    07-10-2013 07:49 PM
  3. anon5664829's Avatar
    Sikh's are allowed to wear turbans in school in Canada. Is this similar? I think we can wear crosses too for that matter. I'm gonna say no to swastikas, but pretty much everything else goes as far as I know as long as it's not hate related.

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    Why no swastikas? Swastikas area symbol of peace. I am not religious myself but my family is and we hang a swastika for peace(or hope for eternal peace) The bloody nazis ruined it but don't forget it's true meaning.
    return_0 likes this.
    07-10-2013 07:56 PM
  4. msndrstood's Avatar
    And then there is the issue of bisexuality.

    Yep that one should do it.

    Sent via Note II
    07-10-2013 09:14 PM
  5. llamabreath's Avatar
    oh, no...
    msndrstood likes this.
    07-10-2013 09:20 PM
  6. badbrad17's Avatar
    I outlined the issue and even showed you two different examples one done as a belief and one stated more as if it were a fact. I don't know what more I can do either.

    Which brings us to this contradiction now:

    VS:

    Hmmm, sounds like you are in fact characterizing everyone, including yourself with that statement.

    So let's get into that flawed reasoning....
    My original comment was not intended to make a point about this topic. I just made an assumption and honestly didn't really think about it until you pointed it out. Once I had time to think about it I thought about my friends situation and thought it had merit to the discussion. Not trying to offend anyone.

    This is so outlandish it is difficult to even know where to begin. Unless he has some unhealthy incestuous feelings towards his father, not getting attention should have nothing to do with SEXUAL attraction. If it did, I venture to say there would be a LOT more gay people in the world. How many straight men do not relate to their fathers? Quite a few I would imagine from what I have seen, heard and read.
    Okay well if what I randomly thought was outlandish and false then there should be no scientific data or research to even consider my comment correct? Well I did a quick Google search and not only did I find that the father figure and abuse issue is very much believed by professionals and people in the gay community, but it is as you mentioned a generalized problem for many people. But this does not allow you to use absolutism as a method of discrediting my analysis or the research confirming it by many professionals. I did say that there could be other reasons for other people who are gay. My point was that I believe there is a cause based on environmental impact and a choice by the person to act upon their lifestyle. This is common in many areas of psychology, not just sex.



    Utter denial. Not to be overtly crude, but people don't "overcome" what sexually arouses them. Which is why they often say a certain body part has a mind of it's own. There is no amount of counseling in the world that would make me sexually attracted to a women. None. Zero. No offense to the ladies out there reading this, but I just don't even really even notice women when I walk down the street. They are for the most part, rather invisible to me and definitely do not catch my eye. Something like that, so deeply rooted is just not something that can be "fixed". It is who I am.
    So then you are saying he is lying?

    And you are just wrong. The proof of that is not only my life but your own life as well. Do you think you could be happy having sex with a man? Does the idea excite you? Does it appeal to you? Could you envision a time when you walk down the street and men start looking hot to you? Where women fade into the background, but a good-looking guy makes you turn your head? Could you see yourself dating a man? Holding his hand romantically on the beach? Giving him a long passionate kiss? Cuddling with him in bed? Marrying him and having a family and growing old with him? Does any of that sound good? Does any of it even sound remotely possible for you? To say someone else's sexuality is a choice, is to say that yours is as well. If you could see yourself with a man just as easily as a women, then perhaps your points have some merit. If on the other hand any of those things above seem absolutely disgusting and out of the question to you, well, there's your answer.
    I wasn't making a point based on my issues. I was making it based on the opinion of my formerly gay friend. I think that everyone has thoughts of what a gay relationship would be like in order to assess our feelings. This is why I asked about bisexuals. What is their deal?

    Now you have crossed over the line into offensive territory. Given our situations, it's likely that I know FAR more gay people then you do. Hundreds upon hundreds. And very very few of them were ever abused. I certainly was not. My partner was not. Conversely there are lots of straight people who have been. Why aren't they gay?
    Well I don't want you to be upset. If you are getting mad then we should not communicate. I really value your views and the discussion.

    I am searching for clarity not only opinion. The articles I posted below are from 3 camps.
    1. a gay perspective
    2. a doctors perspective
    3. A sexually confused persons perspective

    I welcome your comments.

    http://gaylife.about.com/od/gaymenta...-Issues-Go.htm

    http://www.narth.com/docs/hom101.html

    http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...6190015AA1Q4mq

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    07-10-2013 09:33 PM
  7. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    I thought it was already determined that trying to convince anyone that their views on a subject were wrong was futile.

    Also, how do you argue against someone's personal experiences and how that may or may not have affected them in life?

    If people are going to keep saying things that are offensive or get offended by things (intentions don't matter) then the thread will be closed permanently.

    See the note at the top of the section.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2
    07-10-2013 09:53 PM
  8. GadgetGator's Avatar
    Okay well if what I randomly thought was outlandish and false then there should be no scientific data or research to even consider my comment correct? Well I did a quick Google search and not only did I find that the father figure and abuse issue is very much believed by professionals and people in the gay community,
    I'm actually IN the gay community, not on the outside looking in, so my perspective is a little different. And trust me when I say this, the gay community does NOT believe these things you are saying. If you see someone asking about their daddy issues, it's because these thoughts have been planted into that person's head by anti-gay people. I FIRMLY believe these attempts to link gay people up to other things like abuse, or overbearing mother, etc. are an attempt by the religious right to explain away and discredit gay people. Ignoring the fact that all those things that they can attribute to the "cause" of homosexuality can also be found in homes with only heterosexual kids. Rather then finding some great discovery, these people have only found what exist throughout all of humanity as a whole and then decided to apply it to only gay people as some fallacious root cause. These 1950's arguments weren't true in the 1950's and they certainly aren't true now. And I am getting really tired of these myths being spread around as if they were facts. They are not.

    I did say that there could be other reasons for other people who are gay.
    So far, I have seen abuse, a lack of attention from father, tragic events and just a random choice. None of which are true.

    So then you are saying he is lying?
    Well, since you are fond of referencing studies of psychology I am sure you can look up denial. I've known people like this. They have talked themselves into thinking they aren't really gay and gone down the heterosexual path only to realize later on that they were lying to themselves, to their families, to the person they were with...everyone. It's not a healthy thing to do, but some people go that route unfortunately and a lot of people end up getting hurt in the process. My own cousin almost fell into that trap too. And he thankfully avoided it and has happily been with his husband for many years now. But it could have been a train wreck had he kept lying to himself and pretending to be something that he was not.

    I wasn't making a point based on my issues. I was making it based on the opinion of my formerly gay friend. I think that everyone has thoughts of what a gay relationship would be like in order to assess our feelings. This is why I asked about bisexuals. What is their deal?
    Interesting how you didn't answer a single one of my questions regarding your own "choice". Again, if it's a choice for him and a choice for me, then it's a choice for you too and you should by that logic be able to be just as happy with a man. Making us all bisexual I guess. Now I do not believe that, but as long as we are mentioning them, why is so hard to understand that some people are equally drawn to both sexes? I've never been one of those people so I can't fully relate, but I still can listen to them and try to understand and not just think they are choosing to be sinful in some way!

    I am searching for clarity not only opinion. The articles I posted below are from 3 camps.
    1. a gay perspective
    2. a doctors perspective
    3. A sexually confused persons perspective

    I welcome your comments.

    Can You Really Let Your Daddy Issues Go?

    Homosexuality 101: What Every Therapist, Parent, And Homosexual Should Know

    Gay, or just want a father figure? - Yahoo! Answers
    I and others here have given you plenty of clarity on this issue. You just seem to want to ignore it and reference people and things who aren't even part of this discussion rather then listen to the ones that actually are. As for your links, the first basically says many of the things I have been saying, the last one isn't a study at all, and the middle one is a well known anti-gay group.
    07-10-2013 10:39 PM
  9. Aquila's Avatar
    I wonder if the issue is perhaps trying to analyze it as a personality disorder, rather than something like hair color, eye color, etc. We don't spend much time at all wondering "what happened" to make a left handed person, but we do spend a lot of time trying to figure out how someone became bipolar, etc. It's not something to try to "fix", just like you don't (or should not, ought not to) force children to write with their right hands, if they be clearly left dominant.
    07-10-2013 10:50 PM
  10. badbrad17's Avatar
    I'm officially going to bow out of the discussion. I don't want to get anyone any more offended. I wish you guys well in the discussion.

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    07-11-2013 12:34 AM
  11. GadgetGator's Avatar
    I'm officially going to bow out of the discussion. I don't want to get anyone any more offended. I wish you guys well in the discussion.
    (sigh) History repeats itself. Was hoping this time would be different. I have seen this before. When confronted with the question of choice on their own sexuality, people against gay equality never seem to be able to answer or address those points. So frustrating. I'd love for someone to tell me that they could be happy with the same sex the way they think I could be with the opposite. Then we'd be making progress at least and could explore that.

    Oh well. If you ever read this, Badbrad17 I am sorry that you felt the need to leave. I'm not upset with you at all and I am not offended as you might think I am. I do however hope that you come to understand someday that all us gay people aren't the product of some horrible traumatic event in our lives or poor parenting. Despite what you might think, I'm not broken and it's not a choice. I'm just me. I did enjoy our conversation though. It was interesting. You've given me some things to think about and hopefully I have given you some things to think about as well. As all good debates should!
    msndrstood, Aquila and badbrad17 like this.
    07-11-2013 02:47 AM
  12. JHBThree's Avatar
    Sorry. You sound upset and this was not my intention. Like I said I am just relaying a true story. But I have to comment in order to gain some clarification on your post.

    First of all you nor I know nothing about this support group. We are in Canada. And to blame a specific group for the suicides of people is so generalized it makes no sense. There may be groups with ill intent out there but in Canada we are very liberal. If the group was dragging people in and degrading them then this would be wrong. This was not the case, so I don't agree with your assessment.
    If they 'helped' him 'realize' he wasn't gay, then the group is one that is not a support group or whatever at all. They don't drag or degrade; their sole mission is to convince you you aren't gay and blame those feelings on something else. (Like, say, scapegoating a father) Given the upbringing you described, he fits perfectly the mold of those that are susceptible to their voodoo.

    Also, ex-gay groups ARE responsible for the suicides of dozens of individuals. Google it. They are incredibly harmful.

    You have also stated that it is an empirical fact that being gay is not a choice. I have been criticized for saying things in my posts that have been perceived as fact yet I have only stated my opinion. Yet you are actually making a claim without any proof at all. Where are the people who want to stand up and ask for the burden of proof on this one? Apparently it's too touchy a subject or not politically correct? I don't know. I on the other hand have told a true story without malice that for all intents and purposes is a scientific study that clearly proves your comment to be false. This has nothing to do with my opinion. It is just data based on the lives of 2 people. And to also extrapolate on this topic I also know 2 other people that have similar stories. 1 is my neighbors daughter who has been out of the closet for many years. Very proud and yet just last week her mom posted on Facebook that she is also now getting married to a man. I do not know why or even have details as to why she made this choice, but it has to be a choice. What other option is there? Maybe she was also subjected to one of these suicidal groups and is delusional to her real existence. It's really strange. For me I can't help but be wallowed down in the scientific data that is in front of me in my small Canadian city. If we are born into this and are who we are then why the flip flopping? I have another one. My niece is a lesbian. Strong willed. She and her girl friend were (I believe) the first couple in Vancouver to go to high school prom together. This was many years ago and did light up some of the local news. She also is very strong willed and was a strong advocate of the gay community. Yet after a number of years she still dated boys once in a while. She didn't care in the least what anyone thought. She had loving supportive parents around her. Then after a number of years she ended up marrying a female and I assume she is still a lesbian. I say assume because I really don't know. It appears that all the people I know are making choices to either be gay or not be gay at different times. Or are the rules different for bisexuals? I honestly don't know. Are they just working it out biologically?

    A better question would be how should the opinions and lifestyle of these 2 people who are now happily married be judged? They were both gay people who would have been according to you born gay without choice. Yet here they are now married at almost 50 years old I might add and in love and the exact opposite of suicidal. They have said to me that they feel free of the thing that had held them captive for their entire lives.
    Being gay is not a choice. You want proof? I'm the living, breathing proof of that. So is every other gay person out there. I didn't wake up one day and say 'I'm going to be gay today'. For as long as I can remember, I have not been attracted to women. (First memories of that are second grade) My parents did nothing to cause it. Society did nothing to cause it. Its the way I was born and it was not a choice. Any insinuation by anyone anywhere to the contrary is offensive and disrespectful to me.

    So what should I say to them? They are brainwashed or lying to me? Or is this just an anomaly in my small city?

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    Watch it fall apart. Because it will. Sooner or later his shame about being gay won't be able to fight who he actually is.

    Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk 2
    return_0 and GadgetGator like this.
    07-11-2013 04:25 AM
  13. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    (sigh) History repeats itself. Was hoping this time would be different. I have seen this before. When confronted with the question of choice on their own sexuality, people against gay equality never seem to be able to answer or address those points. So frustrating. I'd love for someone to tell me that they could be happy with the same sex the way they think I could be with the opposite. Then we'd be making progress at least and could explore that.

    Oh well. If you ever read this, Badbrad17 I am sorry that you felt the need to leave. I'm not upset with you at all and I am not offended as you might think I am. I do however hope that you come to understand someday that all us gay people aren't the product of some horrible traumatic event in our lives or poor parenting. Despite what you might think, I'm not broken and it's not a choice. I'm just me. I did enjoy our conversation though. It was interesting. You've given me some things to think about and hopefully I have given you some things to think about as well. As all good debates should!
    You said you were offended earlier, I posted a warning, he chose to not continue the discussion. Not because he didn't want to, but because he wanted to heed my warning.

    If you truly wanted to continue the discussion then someone expressing their beliefs or opinions wouldn't so easily offend you.




    Everyone has at one point stated a belief or an opinion as fact, because to you it is, but to others it may not be. That's something to keep in mind when having a discussion like this.

    Nobody is ever going to prove anyone else right or wrong, but you'll keep going in the same circles like the argument is going to somehow change.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4 Beta
    badbrad17 likes this.
    07-11-2013 08:53 AM
  14. badbrad17's Avatar
    (sigh) History repeats itself. Was hoping this time would be different. I have seen this before. When confronted with the question of choice on their own sexuality, people against gay equality never seem to be able to answer or address those points. So frustrating. I'd love for someone to tell me that they could be happy with the same sex the way they think I could be with the opposite. Then we'd be making progress at least and could explore that.

    Oh well. If you ever read this, Badbrad17 I am sorry that you felt the need to leave. I'm not upset with you at all and I am not offended as you might think I am. I do however hope that you come to understand someday that all us gay people aren't the product of some horrible traumatic event in our lives or poor parenting. Despite what you might think, I'm not broken and it's not a choice. I'm just me. I did enjoy our conversation though. It was interesting. You've given me some things to think about and hopefully I have given you some things to think about as well. As all good debates should!
    I sent you a PM and am more than willing to continue chatting there if you care too. Cheers.

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    07-11-2013 01:18 PM
  15. GadgetGator's Avatar
    Being gay is not a choice. You want proof? I'm the living, breathing proof of that. So is every other gay person out there. I didn't wake up one day and say 'I'm going to be gay today'. For as long as I can remember, I have not been attracted to women. (First memories of that are second grade) My parents did nothing to cause it. Society did nothing to cause it. Its the way I was born and it was not a choice. Any insinuation by anyone anywhere to the contrary is offensive and disrespectful to me.
    I guess I am left scratching my head at how the experiences of friends or family are somehow "for all intents and purposes is a scientific study" while the experiences of both yourself and I are continuously completely tossed out and ignored. Because we don't fit into the desired narrative???

    It's quite likely that the people mentioned in those examples are either in denial or in the case of the most recent examples probably just bisexual.

    Watch it fall apart. Because it will. Sooner or later his shame about being gay won't be able to fight who he actually is.
    Exactly. I have seen examples of that before. A number of times. The thing that always gets me, is sometimes these men are very very gay. Like even a straight person would think they were gay. I am always left wondering why the women in these relationships don't get a clue and why they want to be in such a relationship. I have a friend of a friend in that situation. She even asked her friends if they thought her guy was gay. When they all told her yes, she got mad at them! Well, if you don't want to know the real answer, don't ask the question! Very very strange what denial will do, not to just the gay people, but to the spouses as well. I'm so glad that I avoided all that BS and always knew who I was. As a child I thought maybe it was just a phase. In fact, I thought that all boys felt that way...which is why girls were "icky". To give it a fair shot, later in life I tried dating a few (since bringing a dude to a school dance was frowned upon in those days!). Nope....still icky! LOL
    07-11-2013 02:15 PM
  16. GadgetGator's Avatar
    Well, it looks like they STILL aren't giving up yet!!!

    Prop. 8 backers make long-shot bid to stop same-sex marriage in California - U.S. News

    Equality On Trial Prop 8 proponents file California Supreme Court challenge to stop same-sex weddings

    It's just amazing to me how far some people will go to ruin other people's happiness. And how far they will go to try and keep people unequal. It's sickening quite frankly.
    msndrstood, gnr_2, Aquila and 1 others like this.
    07-12-2013 08:17 PM
  17. llamabreath's Avatar
    Well, it looks like they STILL aren't giving up yet!!!

    Prop. 8 backers make long-shot bid to stop same-sex marriage in California - U.S. News

    Equality On Trial Prop 8 proponents file California Supreme Court challenge to stop same-sex weddings

    It's just amazing to me how far some people will go to ruin other people's happiness. And how far they will go to try and keep people unequal. It's sickening quite frankly.
    In your opinion.
    There are things that are sickening to other people that are not sickening to you.

    07-12-2013 08:41 PM
  18. msndrstood's Avatar
    In your opinion.
    There are things that are sickening to other people that are not sickening to you.

    The (un)equality issue is the issue.

    Sent via Note II
    07-12-2013 08:59 PM
  19. JHBThree's Avatar
    In your opinion.
    There are things that are sickening to other people that are not sickening to you.

    No, its sickening. They got their butts handed to them by the US supreme court twice, and they still haven't gotten the message that the law is not on their side.

    Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk 2
    Aquila likes this.
    07-12-2013 11:01 PM
  20. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    Tread very lightly...sickening is awfully close to offensive.
    07-12-2013 11:25 PM
  21. JHBThree's Avatar
    Tread very lightly...sickening is awfully close to offensive.
    Ehhh. It isn't sickening because its offensive. Its sickening because its a waste of their money and taxpayers money for an issue that has already been decided.

    The group can believe what they want, but to keep going after they've already been slapped around several times by the courts IS sickening. Normal people would realize its a fruitless endeavor and stop already.

    Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk 2
    07-12-2013 11:36 PM
  22. primevyl's Avatar
    The scariest people on the planet are not those who think they are doing wrong but those who believe they are right.

    <<<Sent from my Rooted (soon to be) 64+ gig Rezound!>>>
    jtc276, msndrstood, gnr_2 and 1 others like this.
    07-12-2013 11:44 PM
  23. Aquila's Avatar
    The scariest people on the planet are not those who think they are doing wrong but those who believe they are right.

    <<<Sent from my Rooted (soon to be) 64+ gig Rezound!>>>
    Wizard's Second Rule.
    jtc276 and badbrad17 like this.
    07-12-2013 11:46 PM
  24. jtc276's Avatar
    I've seen a lot of discussions about gay rights, especially in the last few weeks. This thread has by far been the most thought-provoking of them all with legitimate conversation about the subject. I won't state my opinion on the issue because I'm honestly worn out on the topic. I do, however, want to say that I'm happy to see there are people here on both sides who have composed some fantastic and genuinely intelligent thoughts. In my opinion, this is a great thread.

    Posted via Android Central App
    07-13-2013 12:30 AM
  25. GadgetGator's Avatar
    Tread very lightly...sickening is awfully close to offensive.
    I"m sorry if you think my choice of words is offensive. It is how I feel. I would assume you would feel the same way if you were making plans for a wedding (as I am) and there were other people out there trying to prevent you from doing so, even after courts have ruled on this. You know what's offensive to me? Voting on my rights is offensive. People thinking that I need their rubber stamp approval on a marriage partner is offensive. People calling me perverted is offensive. And yes, people still trying to stop people's big day even after wedding venues have been booked and licenses obtained, IS offensive.

    I'm really tired of the attitude out there that voting against my rights and treating me like a second class citizen is just another legitimate point of view...as if we were talking about something hypothetical..like a tax policy or how to handle social security. I see this so many times..in forums, in the media..everywhere. But it's not. It's a certain group of people standing in the way of another group of people's real world civil rights that we are talking about. As I said earlier, it affects my life, my family and my finances adversely. And in a free society, that should be unacceptable to everyone no matter what group we are talking about.
    07-13-2013 01:10 AM
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