06-30-2014 01:17 AM
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  1. gollum18's Avatar
    I"m sorry if you think my choice of words is offensive. It is how I feel. I would assume you would feel the same way if you were making plans for a wedding (as I am) and there were other people out there trying to prevent you from doing so, even after courts have ruled on this. You know what's offensive to me? Voting on my rights is offensive. People thinking that I need their rubber stamp approval on a marriage partner is offensive. People calling me perverted is offensive. And yes, people still trying to stop people's big day even after wedding venues have been booked and licenses obtained, IS offensive.

    I'm really tired of the attitude out there that voting against my rights and treating me like a second class citizen is just another legitimate point of view...as if we were talking about something hypothetical..like a tax policy or how to handle social security. I see this so many times..in forums, in the media..everywhere. But it's not. It's a certain group of people standing in the way of another group of people's real world civil rights that we are talking about. As I said earlier, it affects my life, my family and my finances adversely. And in a free society, that should be unacceptable to everyone no matter what group we are talking about.
    Oh just wait until you hear wbc's opinion on this issue.

    Also good luck with your wedding, you shouldn't be demoralized or ostracized because of your sexual preferences.

    As well it should be acceptable. However, you'll always have those people, who aren't happy unless someone else is miserable. As long as your content with your lifestyle, that should be enough. Who cares what anyone else thinks? You should be looking towards your future, with hope and happiness. Don't let those people get you down.

    Sprint GS3 Running TN's Msg and Chubbs
    msndrstood, gnr_2 and GadgetGator like this.
    07-13-2013 01:24 AM
  2. Aquila's Avatar
    However, you'll always have those people, who aren't happy unless someone else is miserable.
    This should be a wizard's rule and it isn't. Calling Terry Goodkind.


    As know ad your content with your lifestyle, that should be enough.
    I think we should drop the term, "lifestyle" from this conversation. We don't talk about a marriage between a left handed and right handed person as a lifestyle, nor that of a 70 year old woman to a 25 year old man, nor that of an Asian woman and Hispanic man, etc. I might be nitpicking, but the more I think of this as a trait rather than behavioral conduct (obvious) and keep going down the logic path on that, the more the comparisons to ageism, sexism, racism, etc. seem to be more clearly correct.

    @GadgetGator - there is no way for me to talk/think about this than as hypothetical abstract because I'm not directly affected by the decisions today, however it is important to contemplate and defend your rights today because the precedents set could easily be used for or against the preservation of my rights tomorrow. I'm sorry if that is offensive (I think that might not be what you mean, but I don't want to put words in your mouth), but despite not being homosexual myself and/or against equality (or anything else) for religious reasons, I still feel like it is important for me to join the discussion, think through the implications of decisions and defend the position that I feel to be valid.

    I like to pretend that I'm fairly good at thinking stuff through, even if I'm not good at explaining what I mean. For me this isn't a pro gay or anti religion concept. It's a pro equality and pro logic concept. As in my first post, I couldn't care less who wants to marry who as long as they both consent and are both of an adult age to do so. It might be a good idea or bad idea, but it's not my business. As soon as we start singling people or groups of people out to deny the opportunity to them though, then we do have an issue and all American's should be lashing out at such discrimination that flies directly in the face of the ideals (maybe not the practices, but walking is harder than talking is harder than thinking) that we're founded to stand in defense of.
    msndrstood, gnr_2 and GadgetGator like this.
    07-13-2013 01:37 AM
  3. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    I"m sorry if you think my choice of words is offensive. It is how I feel. I would assume you would feel the same way if you were making plans for a wedding (as I am) and there were other people out there trying to prevent you from doing so, even after courts have ruled on this. You know what's offensive to me? Voting on my rights is offensive. People thinking that I need their rubber stamp approval on a marriage partner is offensive. People calling me perverted is offensive. And yes, people still trying to stop people's big day even after wedding venues have been booked and licenses obtained, IS offensive.

    I'm really tired of the attitude out there that voting against my rights and treating me like a second class citizen is just another legitimate point of view...as if we were talking about something hypothetical..like a tax policy or how to handle social security. I see this so many times..in forums, in the media..everywhere. But it's not. It's a certain group of people standing in the way of another group of people's real world civil rights that we are talking about. As I said earlier, it affects my life, my family and my finances adversely. And in a free society, that should be unacceptable to everyone no matter what group we are talking about.
    I wasn't offended at all. I agree completely with what you said.

    EDIT: Well, of course SwiftKey autocorrected me LOL. Let me explain a bit. First of all, I'm not personally offended by your use of the word sickening, as I understood the context in which you were using it. Others might not comprehend the context, or use of the word, in the same way. That was why I posted what I did.

    Honestly, I'm hoping that this thread will just kind of whither away. Every point that could possibly be made has been made, and most of them more than once. I don't want to close it, but the back and forth will honestly never stop unless those involved in the discussion choose to let it.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD
    msndrstood likes this.
    07-13-2013 08:04 AM
  4. msndrstood's Avatar
    Wizard's Second Rule.
    Maybe we should post all of the Wizards Rules.

    Sent via Note II
    badbrad17 likes this.
    07-13-2013 10:09 AM
  5. GadgetGator's Avatar
    I wasn't offended at all. I agree completely with what you said.

    EDIT: Well, of course SwiftKey autocorrected me LOL. Let me explain a bit. First of all, I'm not personally offended by your use of the word sickening, as I understood the context in which you were using it. Others might not comprehend the context, or use of the word, in the same way. That was why I posted what I did.

    Honestly, I'm hoping that this thread will just kind of whither away. Every point that could possibly be made has been made, and most of them more than once. I don't want to close it, but the back and forth will honestly never stop unless those involved in the discussion choose to let it.
    Ah okay. Well, I think it would be premature to close it as litigation is still happening on the issue as recently as yesterday! So thank you for keeping it open.
    msndrstood likes this.
    07-13-2013 02:55 PM
  6. gnr_2's Avatar
    Ah okay. Well, I think it would be premature to close it as litigation is still happening on the issue as recently as yesterday! So thank you for keeping it open.
    As a federal worker, I was so happy to see an email telling those with legally married same-sex spouses that they have 60 days to add them to their benefits (same as any life change or you have to wait until the open period) now that DOMA has been struck down. This is why many that have been together for years are trying to get married quickly to finally have the same benefits as everyone else.

    Sent from the Superuser account on my newly flashed Sprint Galaxy Nexus with XenonHD
    07-18-2013 09:30 AM
  7. Fairclough's Avatar
    It turns out you shouldn't judge people based on the sexual orientation. The Pope announced homosexuals shouldn't be marginalised but rather integrated into society.


    Before the abuse comes FYI I am a Catholic too believe it or not. As for mods this is new news as of this morning (5AM +8 GMT time) thus I believe it requires a new topic.

    Thoughts anyone?

    Posted via Android Central App
    07-29-2013 05:58 PM
  8. jdbii's Avatar
    I was happy to see the Pope make those remarks.
    07-29-2013 06:05 PM
  9. Fairclough's Avatar
    Many don't know they actually have reforms for these policies a bit but historically it would take a hundred years to be fully implemented - I wonder how long it takes with technology in this day and age.

    Posted via Android Central App
    07-29-2013 06:19 PM
  10. msndrstood's Avatar
    I was pretty surprised that he said it. There is still a long way to go for the Catholic Church and many issues including birth control and women clergy. But this is definitely a hopeful sign that they are moving into reality and the 21st century.

    Sent via Note II
    07-29-2013 06:28 PM
  11. palandri's Avatar
    I was pretty surprised that he said it. There is still a long way to go for the Catholic Church and many issues including birth control and women clergy. But this is definitely a hopeful sign that they are moving into reality and the 21st century.

    Sent via Note II
    +1 Well said!
    msndrstood and nolittdroid like this.
    07-31-2013 12:21 AM
  12. JHBThree's Avatar
    Its a step forward, to be sure, but it means nothing until his words are followed with actions.

    Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk 2
    07-31-2013 12:30 AM
  13. GadgetGator's Avatar
    Considering a Catholic school just fired a gay teacher because he married his long-time partner, I'd say it might take awhile before things change in the field. But it's a step in the right direction and acknowledges the reality that this issue is not going to go away. So you either reject gay people and have other people reject your church in return and watch it get smaller and smaller over decades going forward OR you can take a more reasonable approach.

    However, there is a lot of hypocrisy that the Pope needs to deal with. Like this teacher firing. It's really ridiculous that this teacher was there for 17 years and that they knew of his sexuality and his partner for TEN YEARS. But all of a sudden now that he makes it all legal, he gets fired? So the church prefers he live single and in sin instead of being married? Interesting message that they are sending out to everyone. The Catholic church does not believe in divorce. So how many people have they fired for being divorced? I venture to say that number is probably zero.

    Gay teacher at Glendora Catholic school fired after marrying partner - latimes.com
    08-03-2013 07:33 PM
  14. Fairclough's Avatar
    Gadget I know your heated but the Pope isn't involved in school dealings. The state catholic education department administrates school issues and the person should take them up on the matter. I have only known the Pope to be involved in schooling twice. 1 for my school to be the first place in the southern hemisphere to have a round church so all students can see the alter. 2 Mary Mckillop when she was excommunicated by a bishop, she established multiple catholic schools.


    The bit about marriage, you are not entirely true - look up anullments (spelt wrong).

    But thank you for your post and concern.

    Posted via Android Central App
    08-05-2013 05:00 AM
  15. gollum18's Avatar
    In the eyes of the law an anullment is not a divorce. Basically all an anullment does is make it so the church acts like your marriage never existed. In the eyes of the law you are still legally married and will remain so until you receive a divorce or rip up your marriage papers and flush the rings. Then your not married anymore.

    I was quite serious about the last part btw.

    Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
    08-05-2013 10:08 AM
  16. Fairclough's Avatar
    Yes that maybe be so but the church will than allow you to re marry. Anullmemt basically has to prove the marriage was void. E.g no real intentions to be committed etc. It would be fair to say you shouldn't remarry till your legally divorced. Anyway let's not stray of topic too much.

    Posted via Android Central App
    08-05-2013 04:17 PM
  17. GadgetGator's Avatar
    Gadget I know your heated but the Pope isn't involved in school dealings. The state catholic education department administrates school issues and the person should take them up on the matter. I have only known the Pope to be involved in schooling twice. 1 for my school to be the first place in the southern hemisphere to have a round church so all students can see the alter. 2 Mary Mckillop when she was excommunicated by a bishop, she established multiple catholic schools.
    So you're saying the Pope's actions and words do not filter down and have no bearing on Catholic schools and other organizations? I disagree. He's an influential figure. THAT is what I was making reference to. Not that the Pope has any direct dealings with this school.

    The bit about marriage, you are not entirely true - look up anullments (spelt wrong).
    What part am I right on then? Am I correct in saying that not all divorces within the church are annulled? Therefore their could be divorced people teaching or working at that school?
    08-05-2013 07:52 PM
  18. Fairclough's Avatar
    I might of read your previous post incorrectly but it sounded as you were saying that no one in the church can ever re marry which is incorrect if they follow the churches procedures. Its tedious but I guess that's some things you have to tolerate when you join a group of common beliefs.

    Posted via Android Central App
    08-05-2013 09:44 PM
  19. nolittdroid's Avatar
    As a former Catholic I love it! He's right, too. Who are we to judge?

    ✌SG3/iPad2
    08-07-2013 02:39 PM
  20. Live2ride883's Avatar
    08-14-2013 10:22 PM
  21. Aquila's Avatar
    While relatively articulate, I found the premise of the article somewhat laughable. It gives to the reader an underlying presupposition that there is moral equality in the freedom to speak out in favor of discrimination and the defense of minorities. The argument here is not whether or not you have to be happy about the freedoms enjoyed by others, but that you respect the principles of equality they're predicated upon. I'd like to assume that, given our own desire for liberty, that we project that liberty upon as many citizens of the world as possible, creating freedom not only from persecution, but also from the chains of ignorance, intolerance and obedience to silly relics of logic that will shame us in history books of the near future.

    Of course it should be painful and absurd to try to justify discrimination. Regardless of how the arguments are couched, in religion, in "family values", in whatever, the point still stands that they are attempting to assert that the law should treat two sets of citizens differently based solely on a status. Whether that status is race, party, creed, gender, age, orientation, nationality, marital status, employment status, etc, etc. at some point the only pertinent question is, "is it okay to discriminate?" If the answer is yes, then that does require immense justification and to date I'm not aware of anyone attempting to make that claim based on any rational other than, "I (or my teacher, my priest, my congressman, my newsman) think it's wrong". If the answer is no, then attempting to do so after that admission is weak, displaying a lack of character that is astounding in its duplicity.

    The most applicable analogy would be a school teacher or other public official/employee speaking aloud, without prompting or provocation (ie. not in a Civics course detailing racism and the history thereof) , their unequivocal support of Jim Crow laws. Of course they have the right to support that ideology and the right to speak about their support. They do not have the right to press their "moral" beliefs upon unsuspecting students against the wishes of the parents, the school district, etc.
    primevyl, jdbii, JHBThree and 1 others like this.
    08-14-2013 11:17 PM
  22. Serial Fordicator's Avatar
    I guess my deal with it is why does anyone care? I don't care what 2 people do but why would anyone care what I believe. I believe its wrong and no matter how much they tell people they have to agree that its OK, I'm not.

    Just because people doesn't agree with it doesn't mean they are going to cause harm to anyone.



    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    Live2ride883 likes this.
    08-16-2013 09:26 PM
  23. badbrad17's Avatar



    Sent from my Nexus 4
    08-17-2013 12:40 PM
  24. GadgetGator's Avatar
    I guess my deal with it is why does anyone care? I don't care what 2 people do but why would anyone care what I believe. I believe its wrong and no matter how much they tell people they have to agree that its OK, I'm not.

    Just because people doesn't agree with it doesn't mean they are going to cause harm to anyone.



    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    You'd be surprised at the amount of harm a lifetime of hearing "you're bad", "you're sinful", "you're evil", "it's wrong" can do to your self-esteem.
    08-18-2013 05:08 PM
  25. Serial Fordicator's Avatar
    And hearing "you're a homophobe, you have to accept it, you have to tell your children its OK." Is different?

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    08-18-2013 08:08 PM
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