06-30-2014 01:17 AM
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  1. Serial Fordicator's Avatar
    It's an inequality of argument position. The language is somewhat twisted, but the implication of it being a "sin" is that it's also a "choice". We've had a thread on that topic and probably all have a general place where we feel on that issue, but for some people the degree of "not sinning" it seems to be as simple as changing clothes and for others it'd be as complicated as changing your gender. If you believe it's a choice and that it's a sin, then of course there is nothing possibly offensive about saying, "hey, I think they should choose differently". If you're on the other side and think it's part and parcel with their identity, then it'd be the same thing as telling someone to stop being Asian or to stop being Christian, under penalty of eternal punishment, etc, etc.

    When we are allowed to treat choices of political party or religion exactly as important and respected as choice in what to eat for breakfast, then the conversation can move forward. Right now the argument is, "I don't like it" and the reason is, "because of religion" and that's somehow supposed to be an unassailable position and debate stopper. For some reason we feel an inability to point out flaws in religion and/or to accept criticism of religion without an argument going immediately to an 11. Yet, we all assume that the religion of the other 99% of the world that believes differently is wrong. I'd honestly have more respect for an argument of, "I think it's gross" than religion.

    He's not attacking the purchasing habits of someone who bought a different brand of car or voted for another candidate, he's attacking the sexual identity, which is psychologically deeply integrated with self perception, of a giant group of people. Most of his statements are not offensive in the least. He basically said, (paraphrase), "I'm not gay, it doesn't really make sense to me and I have a hard time relating to it". Then he said, "it's a sin, just like greed, terrorism, murder, etc" in which case, assuming it's a choice, sure I can see how that'd make sense to you. But as above, it's easy to see how someone could take that personally, just as if it were race, or creed or gender, etc. Then he closed with, "but hey, I love them anyways, even if I don't really get it". So to be clear, I have no issue at all with him believing any of that or saying any of that. I also think A&E is well within their rights to respond to criticism both for and against his stance.

    Officially in our society, there is no such thing as "a sin", but having grown up Catholic I'm fully aware of the other side of our culture, where it is a very real thing... and THAT is where the message that he closed with should have taken priority (in my opinion). An, "I sin, you sin, we all sin in different ways, lets try to move past that and find the things we do well together" approach makes far more sense and is more in line with Jesus' actual teachings, than one of segmentation and differentiation based on mortals judging the morality of mortals.

    When you describe homosexuality as a deviant act, you're ascribing properties that may not be real. For example, if a person was homosexual but celibate, is that okay? Most theists believe that adultery includes thinking about the act, so I am unaware of why this would would be different from that. Is the sin having homosexual coitus or thinking about it, or just being the type of person that has those thoughts? If things were reversed and it was frowned upon by religion to be straight, if the Bible had a passage that said, "Thou shall never have physical contact with the other gender"... would you feel differently? We get pretty outright angry at the thought of Islamic based theocracies. From a philosophical and moral standpoint, there are a whole lot of double-twists in the logic to make this work.

    Again, fully support his ability to believe and speak whatever he wants. But freedom of speech does not mean freedom without consequence and it never has. Once one person speaks their mind, another is entitled to respond, etc. We can't all agree and if we could it'd be boring. In my mind, if you remove theocratic leanings, the most conservative position possible on most social issues is, "do what you want, the government doesn't care until you're hurting someone or infringing upon the liberty of others". If someone is or is not homosexual, I cannot think of any reason in the world that I would ever want to know, in either direction, and certainly no reason why I would ever care. If it's a theology question, same answer. Let final judgement decide, it'll probably be wiser than my assumptions and there is no way that what two people do in their private bedroom can effect me anymore than what my wife and I do could ever possibly effect them.

    Jefferson said it best in 1781: The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say that there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

    That sentiment ought be at the foundation of our approach to speech. Let people say/do what they want, and if it's not harming anyone, who cares. This entire case would be in that category of, "who cares" if it weren't for viral media attention putting the spotlight and threat of the market on A&E. Their response may not be most ideal (and probably wasn't), but given the rumors of Mr Robertson considering a leave from the show a couple of months ago, I'm inclined to agree with those that feel this is a somewhat calculated market move with the obvious benefit of igniting further partisan separation.
    I agree with a lot of what you said. I spiritually agree with him, but that's not my problem with the whole thing. My problem is the condemnation that is being thrown his way because he doesn't agree with something. I would agree with him whether he was an atheist really. To me, he has just as much right to say he doesn't agree with it as someone saying they do agree with it.

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    Aquila likes this.
    12-26-2013 10:03 AM
  2. Timelessblur's Avatar
    ... of this site? I like the treocentral mobile format for the blog and the forums and hope that something similar is available or in the works for this site.
    Any one screaming freedom and f speech on this as a defense is well an ***** and clearly does not understand freedom of speech.

    This is not a freedom of speech issue. He is not be charged with breaking any law.
    Freedom speech does not mean freedom from consequences. This is a consequence of his speech. Freedom of speech means you accept the consequences of your actions. Just like Phil is free to say what he said. A&E is free to fire him for saying it.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
    12-26-2013 03:59 PM
  3. Aquila's Avatar
    Any one screaming freedom and f speech on this as a defense is well an ***** and clearly does not understand freedom of speech.

    This is not a freedom of speech issue. He is not be charged with breaking any law.
    Freedom speech does not mean freedom from consequences. This is a consequence of his speech. Freedom of speech means you accept the consequences of your actions. Just like Phil is free to say what he said. A&E is free to fire him for saying it.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
    I think we all agree that neither Mr. Robertson nor A&E did anything illegal. At this point we seem to be trying to figure out whether or not it makes sense that people are offended by his comments. Is he stating an opinion as benign as, "I like chocolate more than vanilla ice cream?" or is it as offensive as, "back of the bus". Personally, I think it's closer ice cream than the bus, but it doesn't take much empathy to see how one can be hurt by having their (sexual) identity described as deviant. Having it described that way doesn't make it so, but if half of society thought that people with red hair were witches, we'd probably start seeing a lot more brunettes with freckles.
    12-26-2013 04:37 PM
  4. jdbii's Avatar
    If you just substituted “homosexual” where he used it with any other word describing a person or a group of people it would be highly offensive to the person or people described and the controversy likely would have been the same, especially when such an opinion is expressed by someone in the public spotlight.

    The opinion he expressed in the same GQ interview regarding Pre-Civil-Rights-Era Louisiana were pretty shocking, and following NIT’s analogy in the prior post #93, in my opinion fall more in line with “back of the bus.”
    msndrstood and palandri like this.
    12-26-2013 05:32 PM
  5. cdmjlt369's Avatar
    People need to realize there's a difference in judging someone versus having an opinion. Not the same. And I hate to tell everybody this, but everybody religious and non religious people alike use the Bible and cherry pick what verses they want to use according to their intent. Can anyone show me any quote where this man said he hated/ wanted to do physical harm 2 anyone because they were different? Remember, disagreement or non approval with what you're doing doesn't count as hate or racism, or have we forgotten that in this country too?

    Sent from my XT1060 using AC Forums mobile app
    mrsmumbles likes this.
    12-27-2013 05:54 AM
  6. JW4VZW's Avatar
    Lol believe it or not, I'm an independent. The way liberals act just really annoys me sometimes.

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    I agree with you. I consider myself more of an Independent than a Republican.
    Posted on my Samsung Galaxy Note 3 on Verizon Wireless, America's largest 4G LTE Network. Please excuse any errors.
    12-27-2013 11:21 AM
  7. JW4VZW's Avatar
    People need to realize there's a difference in judging someone versus having an opinion. Not the same. And I hate to tell everybody this, but everybody religious and non religious people alike use the Bible and cherry pick what verses they want to use according to their intent. Can anyone show me any quote where this man said he hated/ wanted to do physical harm 2 anyone because they were different? Remember, disagreement or non approval with what you're doing doesn't count as hate or racism, or have we forgotten that in this country too?

    Sent from my XT1060 using AC Forums mobile app
    Doesn't the Koran say to kill all non-Muslims?
    Posted on my Samsung Galaxy Note 3 on Verizon Wireless, America's largest 4G LTE Network. Please excuse any errors.
    12-27-2013 11:33 AM
  8. palandri's Avatar
    Doesn't the Koran say to kill all non-Muslims?
    I am curious, did you hear that on the 700 Club?
    12-27-2013 11:56 AM
  9. Aquila's Avatar
    Doesn't the Koran say to kill all non-Muslims?
    Posted on my Samsung Galaxy Note 3 on Verizon Wireless, America's largest 4G LTE Network. Please excuse any errors.
    I had to look this up because I know next to nothing about the Koran.

    One site said, "There is not such a meaning in the Quran, ordering or even permitting the Muslims to ever attack innocent people whether they are Christians, Jews, or any other faith for that matter.

    Combat is only ordered against those who are attacking or killing the innocent Muslims or fighting against the established Muslim state."

    However there are many passages that can be easily interpreted to kill idolators, especially without someone knowledgeable of the context who is also motivated to guide a peaceful understanding of the teachings.

    My opinion: If you seek peace, any holy book can show it to you. If you seek war, any holy book will give you room to interpret permission.

    XT1060. Through spacetime.
    12-27-2013 11:56 AM
  10. JW4VZW's Avatar
    I am curious, did you hear that on the 700 Club?
    Is that some sort of jab at me? And no, I was told it prior to my first deployment to Afghanistan.
    Posted on my Samsung Galaxy Note 3 on Verizon Wireless, America's largest 4G LTE Network. Please excuse any errors.
    12-27-2013 12:07 PM
  11. JW4VZW's Avatar
    I had to look this up because I know next to nothing about the Koran.

    One site said, "There is not such a meaning in the Quran, ordering or even permitting the Muslims to ever attack innocent people whether they are Christians, Jews, or any other faith for that matter.

    Combat is only ordered against those who are attacking or killing the innocent Muslims or fighting against the established Muslim state."

    However there are many passages that can be easily interpreted to kill idolators, especially without someone knowledgeable of the context who is also motivated to guide a peaceful understanding of the teachings.

    My opinion: If you seek peace, any holy book can show it to you. If you seek war, any holy book will give you room to interpret permission.

    XT1060. Through spacetime.
    I don't know that's what it says, I was just taught that in a cultural learning class prior to my first deployment to Afghanistan. However, if what you post is true then why do Muslims kill people in the name of allah?
    Posted on my Samsung Galaxy Note 3 on Verizon Wireless, America's largest 4G LTE Network. Please excuse any errors.
    12-27-2013 12:17 PM
  12. pappy53's Avatar
    Because back in the day people used religion (the bible) to justify their stance. And, to wit, the reason I have difficulty when I talk to conservatives on the issue, they cherry pick what they want to out of the bible. Do you work on the Sabbath?

    Exodus 35:2
    Six days work shall be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death.
    Laws like this were Hebrew laws, not God's law. None of the "put to death" laws were God's laws. But God did consider homosexuality an abomination. But sin is sin, and doesn't come on different levels.
    12-27-2013 12:26 PM
  13. palandri's Avatar
    Is that some sort of jab at me?....
    No, I have a neighbor that watches the 700 Club on TV, and now she's extremely paranoid towards any Muslim. Whatever they are preaching on the 700 Club is creating paranoia about Islam.


    And no, I was told it prior to my first deployment to Afghanistan..
    Did they also tell the Muslim soldiers that? What was your MOS?
    12-27-2013 12:29 PM
  14. llamabreath's Avatar
    No, I have a neighbor that watches the 700 Club on TV, and now she's extremely paranoid towards any Muslim. Whatever they are preaching on the 700 Club is creating paranoia about Islam.
    My paranoia manifested itself when i watched some of my coworkers and thousands of other innocent people that had been sipping their morning coffee get slaughtered with passenger jets flying into their office towers purposefully, leaving them to take the suddenly horrifying choice of whether to jump 110 stories from the top of a skyscraper or to just burn alive.



    I think signatures are stupid.
    mrsmumbles likes this.
    12-27-2013 12:36 PM
  15. cdmjlt369's Avatar
    There are several passages in the Koran that speak of killing an "infidel". An infidel is an unbeliever.

    Sent from my XT1060 using AC Forums mobile app
    mrsmumbles likes this.
    12-27-2013 12:43 PM
  16. palandri's Avatar
    My paranoia manifested itself when i watched some of my coworkers and thousands of other innocent people that had been sipping their morning coffee get slaughtered with passenger jets flying into their office towers purposefully, leaving them to take the suddenly horrifying choice of whether to jump 110 stories from the top of a skyscraper or to just burn alive.
    Did the same paranoia manifest itself against Christians when Timothy McVeigh blew up the federal building in Oklahoma?
    jdbii likes this.
    12-27-2013 12:46 PM
  17. llamabreath's Avatar
    Did the same paranoia manifest itself against Christians when Timothy McVeigh blew up the federal building in Oklahoma?
    Still picking at the one and only terrorist act on Americans by Americans compared to the numerous acts of terror perpetrated on a near-daily basis around the world by others, huh?



    I think signatures are stupid.
    mrsmumbles likes this.
    12-27-2013 12:50 PM
  18. jdbii's Avatar
    Still picking at the one and only terrorist act on Americans by Americans compared to the numerous acts of terror perpetrated on a near-daily basis around the world by others, huh?
    A lot may depend on how the word terrorism is defined and used, but if there are a lot of Americans on this wikipedia site:
    Terrorism in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    palandri likes this.
    12-27-2013 01:09 PM
  19. palandri's Avatar
    Still picking at the one and only terrorist act on Americans by Americans compared to the numerous acts of terror perpetrated on a near-daily basis around the world by others, huh?
    It's not the one and only, you better Google that. Didn't you say you're in Georgia now? Haven't you heard of the Atlanta Olympic Game Bombings? I think about 200 people were injured.

    Any act of terrorism is terrible and no major religious group that I know of preach terrorism, only splinter groups.
    12-27-2013 01:10 PM
  20. palandri's Avatar
    There are several passages in the Koran that speak of killing an "infidel". An infidel is an unbeliever.

    Sent from my XT1060 using AC Forums mobile app
    So are you saying that all Muslims that follow the Quran are out to kill non-Muslims?
    12-27-2013 01:13 PM
  21. cdmjlt369's Avatar
    So are you saying that all Muslims that follow the Quran are out to kill non-Muslims?
    I'm saying that their holy book says to kill infidels, which are non believers.

    Sent from my XT1060 using AC Forums mobile app
    mrsmumbles likes this.
    12-27-2013 01:23 PM
  22. palandri's Avatar
    I'm saying that their holy book says to kill infidels, which are non believers.

    Sent from my XT1060 using AC Forums mobile app
    So that's your interpretation correct? or are you saying it says that in black & white, Muslims are to kill infidels, no provocation is needed?
    cdmjlt369 and mrsmumbles like this.
    12-27-2013 01:33 PM
  23. JW4VZW's Avatar
    No, I have a neighbor that watches the 700 Club on TV, and now she's extremely paranoid towards any Muslim. Whatever they are preaching on the 700 Club is creating paranoia about Islam.
    Okay, just curious.
    Did they also tell the Muslim soldiers that? What was your MOS?
    I would not know what they do or don’t teach Muslims. My AFSC was Radio Frequency Transmission Systems, which now falls under the Three Delta field. I later changed over to airborne communications.

    My paranoia manifested itself when i watched some of my coworkers and thousands of other innocent people that had been sipping their morning coffee get slaughtered with passenger jets flying into their office towers purposefully, leaving them to take the suddenly horrifying choice of whether to jump 110 stories from the top of a skyscraper or to just burn alive.



    I think signatures are stupid.
    Well said. Did you live in NYC when that happened?
    There are several passages in the Koran that speak of killing an "infidel". An infidel is an unbeliever.

    Sent from my XT1060 using AC Forums mobile app
    I thought so!
    Did the same paranoia manifest itself against Christians when Timothy McVeigh blew up the federal building in Oklahoma?
    That was one act committed by one Christian. I don’t recall, but did he do it in the name of God? I have friends and classmates who were killed or wounded in the name of allah.
    Still picking at the one and only terrorist act on Americans by Americans compared to the numerous acts of terror perpetrated on a near-daily basis around the world by others, huh?



    I think signatures are stupid.
    You are just now noticing that, my friend?
    mrsmumbles likes this.
    12-27-2013 01:37 PM
  24. anon8126715's Avatar
    Laws like this were Hebrew laws, not God's law. None of the "put to death" laws were God's laws. But God did consider homosexuality an abomination. But sin is sin, and doesn't come on different levels.
    So I'm guessing all the laws that are "God's laws", Phil abides by? What about all the verses about "Earthly Possessions"? As I've mentioned before, I don't consider myself religious by any stretch of the imagination, so I am not taking it upon myself to judge anyone from a religious point of view. Having said that, I'd say I've only met a few religious people (I can probably count them all on one hand) that were actually humble enough to understand the phrase, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

    This goes back to what I stated earlier about having a hard time talking to Christian Conservatives in general. When someone makes a concerted effort to go after a specific form of sin in the name of their religion, you have to ask yourself why? To me it's quite obvious. You don't see nor hear about the Christian Conservative groups going after greedy corporations with such fervor. If you look at the 2 groups that Phil spoke about, black people and homosexuals, those are probably 2 of the biggest groups that are targets of bigotry. I can understand why so many people are ready to stand at his corner and defend him. What better way to express the hate and bigotry in your heart than by expressing it via proxy? You gain none of the ill effects, but have a way to express those feelings that you have inside you disguised as "free speech" (even though it has nothing to do with Freedom of Speech). Which in my opinion, coming from someone that has no religious affiliation, doesn't seem very Godly.
    msndrstood likes this.
    12-27-2013 01:42 PM
  25. llamabreath's Avatar
    Well said. Did you live in NYC when that happened?
    Yes I did.



    I think signatures are stupid.
    12-27-2013 01:45 PM
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