07-08-2013 11:52 PM
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  1. msndrstood's Avatar
    Hopefully we can be nice to each other on this one

    I will again preempt my post by saying this is just my opinion based on what I have learned.

    1. The process of creating man was formulated by God in such a way that it allowed freedom of choice as well as a controlled process that had a final purpose. The end goal of our creation has not been completed yet. God made us in order to have fellowship with us in a place where sin is not present. In order to not be a puppet master he must allow the natural order of things to place within his creation. As soon as this is removed we are now merely pawns without freewill.

    The reason Eve was created after was to show that we need a partner. Eve is called Adam's helper. This doesn't mean his subordinate. Both people need each other and work harmoniously together. God made Eve from Adam the same way that man was made in the likeness of God. Genetically man and women are not that different. The creation was modified with a specific purpose in mind. Whether Adam had nipples or not I don't know.

    As for incest. I believe this to be less complicated of an issue. First of all I'm not sure you could say that Adam and Eve were family, but let's say they are. The reason we have problems with birth defects etc due to incest is because we are now genetically flawed. Our physical bodies began to decay and die after sin was introduced into the world. Just as God said we would. Before this Adam and Eve were genetically and physically perfect so mutations and or birth defects would not have been present. It would take a long time before God said that people were no longer to marry or have relations with close relatives. So although we find it creepy there is a good chance that everyone was sleeping with everyone else for a good long while.

    I will answer questions 2 and 3 in separate posts as my time is limited.

    Thanks for the questions and the discussion.

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    Honestly, the idea of Adam and Eve copulating with their offspring being ok back then but not now (I am NOT saying we should be able to now!) is ridiculous. If it is a 'sin' now, it was a 'sin' back then. If God himself said it was a sin in the Bible, then he changed his mind? Because of new facts?

    Kinda like science.

    Sent via Note II
    Wiley_11 and GadgetGator like this.
    07-06-2013 11:44 AM
  2. badbrad17's Avatar
    Honestly, the idea of Adam and Eve copulating with their offspring being ok back then but not now (I am NOT saying we should be able to now!) is ridiculous. If it is a 'sin' now, it was a 'sin' back then. If God himself said it was a sin in the Bible, then he changed his mind? Because of new facts?

    Kinda like science.

    Sent via Note II
    You are entitled to believe that, but the reason it was made a sin was due to a specific physical reason that was not present before that time. Not necessarily a moral one. I believe that religious people have just made it one.

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    07-06-2013 11:49 AM
  3. AngelArs's Avatar
    A contradiction of genesis and reality
    Bottom line, most of the bible is filled with contradictions. There's simply not enough bandwidth to cover them all.
    Wiley_11 likes this.
    07-06-2013 12:00 PM
  4. AngelArs's Avatar
    the reason it was made a sin was due to a specific physical reason that was not present before that time.
    So genetics didn't exist before that time? Oh, OK.....
    Wiley_11 and GadgetGator like this.
    07-06-2013 12:03 PM
  5. badbrad17's Avatar
    How can anyone believe a statement made next to giant blue letters that state, "Nothing is True"?
    I think this is 100% true

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    07-06-2013 12:17 PM
  6. badbrad17's Avatar
    So genetics didn't exist before that time? Oh, OK.....
    I didn't say that. In fact I said that they were genetically perfect. They same things occur with resistance to penicillin. Our bodies change and/or mutate and become resistant to the drug because of modification or damage to the cell.

    Try looking at why the Bible also says drunkenness is bad yet doesn't say you can't drink. There is purpose behind the law. If there was no purpose then the law was not needed. A parent tells their child to wear a coat in the winter, yet in the summer the rules change.

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    TheLibertarian likes this.
    07-06-2013 12:22 PM
  7. AngelArs's Avatar
    I said that they were genetically perfect.
    Wow, lots of flaws with that statement. LOL...
    07-06-2013 12:32 PM
  8. msndrstood's Avatar
    Talking about theological ideology is circle talk. I'm exhausted with this thread.

    Sent via Note II
    palandri and Wiley_11 like this.
    07-06-2013 01:34 PM
  9. palandri's Avatar
    Talking about theological ideology is circle talk. I'm exhausted with this thread.

    Sent via Note II
    Fire and brimstone for you!
    Wiley_11 and msndrstood like this.
    07-06-2013 01:41 PM
  10. AngelArs's Avatar
    Honestly, the idea of Adam and Eve copulating with their offspring being ok back then but not now (I am NOT saying we should be able to now!) is ridiculous.
    No more ridiculous that where it says that cannibalism is OK, or that the cure for leprosy involves incantations and the blood of a bird, or that a donkey sees an angel, and then speaks in human language. There are so many, where does one start?
    Wiley_11 and msndrstood like this.
    07-06-2013 01:44 PM
  11. Wiley_11's Avatar
    Talking about theological ideology is circle talk. I'm exhausted with this thread.
    Your lucky!!.................. I think I got an aneurism.
    07-06-2013 01:47 PM
  12. msndrstood's Avatar
    Your lucky!!.................. I think I got an aneurism.
    Lol.

    The convo is like the movie Groundhog Day, the same things repeated over and over again, with no resolution. I think the entire thread went nowhere, except posters now know, if they didn't before, who is sympatico with their ideas and who isn't.

    Now, can we move on to something less volatile? Like politics?

    Sent via Note II
    Wiley_11 likes this.
    07-06-2013 02:00 PM
  13. AngelArs's Avatar
    The convo is like the movie Groundhog Day
    What an incredible funny movie. A true classic.

    07-06-2013 02:24 PM
  14. badbrad17's Avatar
    Wow, lots of flaws with that statement. LOL...
    Why is that?

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    07-06-2013 02:59 PM
  15. AngelArs's Avatar
    Why is that?
    Because, as usual you are making wild assertions without even the slightest of proof or evidence. You're assuming that everyone accepts whatever is spoon fed to them as truth. Not so.
    Oofa likes this.
    07-06-2013 04:20 PM
  16. badbrad17's Avatar
    Because, as usual you are making wild assertions without even the slightest of proof or evidence. You're assuming that everyone accepts whatever is spoon fed to them as truth. Not so.
    Wow you have a hate on for me or something. I presented this as a theoretical idea based on what I had read. Man even when I try to clearly define this at the beginning of my posts you apparently don't acknowledge it.

    Someone asked a specific question and I gave what I believe is a possible answer. Before that I said:
    "I will again preempt my post by saying this is just my opinion based on what I have learned."

    You need to learn to have a civil discussion with different view points.

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    met.watts likes this.
    07-06-2013 05:17 PM
  17. GadgetGator's Avatar
    There's so many illogical things to me here, but I'll see if I can take them one by one...

    Hopefully we can be nice to each other on this one

    I will again preempt my post by saying this is just my opinion based on what I have learned.

    1. The process of creating man was formulated by God in such a way that it allowed freedom of choice as well as a controlled process that had a final purpose. The end goal of our creation has not been completed yet. God made us in order to have fellowship with us in a place where sin is not present.
    This makes no sense at all. If God created everything, then he created all the dark stuff too, including the concept of sin. So saying that God made us in order to be in a place where there wasn't sin, is to say God created us in order to have fellowship away from the very thing God created....since he created everything. It is illogical. Perhaps I just don't understand your comment. I must admit, despite seeing hundreds of people discuss this subject over the decades, I have never seen anyone phrase it quite that way before so I very well may be missing something. I don't see how making us = a fellowship WITHOUT sin, since man is referred to as a sinful creature.

    Edit: I would like to add that I believe the final end game is not over yet. God's original plan was to actually save his creation after the fall when they sinned.
    Original plan? Then this implies there is some sort of backup plan. Why would an all seeing being need a backup plan? They would be able to foresee the outcome ahead of time. If there's another plan, then either God isn't the all-seeing creature portrayed in religion, or is prone to changes of mind a lot.

    God's plan is to provide an iron clad way for us to be with him outside of Satan's control.
    Why would another creature such as Satan exist? Why would they have the power to control anything? To make that comment, is to suggest that rather their being one pilot at the helm, God has an evil co-pilot. Why? Why, if God were the one to create everything and therefore be the top dog, why would he share power like that??? This makes no sense to me. On a related note, if God created everything, then he also created evil and Satan too. Right???

    The only way this was feasible was for him to eventually die for us in the person of Jesus.
    So a powerful being that created all the plants, animals, man, and even the stars above had only one way feasible to handle a situation? That doesn't seem to jive with that all powerful part. A being of that power would have lots of options...or at least they should. Not just one.

    Satan chose to work against God. God wanted fellowship with his creation but knew how Satan would react. God can't allow evil and corruption to live in his presence so he created a perfect system that allows us to be able to be with God and be completely justified.
    Why does God allow Satan to exist, again???? And God can't allow evil to live in his presence, yet he created everything thereby created the evil he is now trying to avoid???? It sounds prefect alright....perfectly confusing.

    The reason Eve was created after was to show that we need a partner. Eve is called Adam's helper. This doesn't mean his subordinate. Both people need each other and work harmoniously together. God made Eve from Adam the same way that man was made in the likeness of God. Genetically man and women are not that different. The creation was modified with a specific purpose in mind. Whether Adam had nipples or not I don't know.
    Helper doesn't imply equal. And things in both the Bible as well as how religion has treated women over the centuries points to that. Eve came second so women are treated secondARY. And other then to support and reinforce Biblical belief that it's a man's world first and formost, I believe the stories have been written to reflect that attitude...hence Eve comes later...following behind the man like some religions still profess to this day.

    As for incest. I believe this to be less complicated of an issue. First of all I'm not sure you could say that Adam and Eve were family, but let's say they are. The reason we have problems with birth defects etc due to incest is because we are now genetically flawed. Our physical bodies began to decay and die after sin was introduced into the world, just as God said we would. Before this Adam and Eve were genetically and physically perfect so mutations and or birth defects would not have been present. It would take a long time before God said that people were no longer to marry or have relations with close relatives. So although we find it creepy now, there is a good chance that everyone was sleeping with everyone else for a good long while.
    So your premise is that we used to live forever??? This flies in the face of every single thing in the universe. Even the stars themselves die. It also runs counter to the finite amount of space we are living on. If there were just two people forever, they wouldn't need such a big planet. If on the other hand those people produced children, and everyone lived forever and didn't decay or die, we would have ran out of room a long time ago. Either way, it doesn't work. And I am just not buying that people wouldn't have found the idea of sleeping with a parent or sibling and producing children with them just as creepy then as now. Ewwww.
    07-06-2013 05:44 PM
  18. AngelArs's Avatar
    I presented this as a theoretical idea based on what I had read. Man even when I try to clearly define this at the beginning of my posts you apparently don't acknowledge it.

    Someone asked a specific question and I gave what I believe is a possible answer. Before that I said:
    "I will again preempt my post by saying this is just my opinion based on what I have learned."

    You need to learn to have a civil discussion with different view points.
    Funny, post #56 doesn't say any of what you just mentioned.

    Try back-peddling less and sticking to what your assertions are more. If you can't prove them then don't wildly make them. Pretty simple.
    07-06-2013 06:08 PM
  19. cdmjlt369's Avatar
    Here is my opinion. Both sides are arguing on things based on faith. Its just a matter of what you put your faith in. Evolutionists excercise faith that science has not led them wrong. Christians take on faith that the Bible is the word of God and it tells specifically how the earth was created. After all none of us were there when the earth was created.

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app
    07-06-2013 06:10 PM
  20. gollum18's Avatar
    Hold on I'm back, and I will voice my opinion only once. It shall be on religion as a whole not aimed towards any specific religion. If my opinions offend anyone please feel free to tell me, but again that is the nature of this thread.

    However I won't be posting until 1am. I don't want just anyone to pop up in here and offer their opinion.

    Sprint GS3 Running TN's Msg and Chubbs
    07-06-2013 06:16 PM
  21. llamabreath's Avatar
    Funny, post #56 doesn't say any of what you just mentioned.

    Try back-peddling less and sticking to what your assertions are more. If you can't prove them then don't wildly make them. Pretty simple.
    Hey AngelArs, think you can tone it down a little and show some mutual respect? I know it's easy to be aggressive in anonymity, but see if you can let off the gas some. Thanks.

    Sent from Hotlanta via New Yawk
    07-06-2013 06:28 PM
  22. Oofa's Avatar
    I realize that it's impossible for me to have any type of reasonable religious discussion if it's based on someone believing that God did this or that or even that God exists. I am an Atheist and would have to start at a logical point to discuss religion. Not on a basis that God did this or God did that. I don't want to get simple minded or dramatic but John Lennon said it quite well....... "God is a concept by which we measure ourselves". To me there is no such thing as God.
    msndrstood and gollum18 like this.
    07-06-2013 07:03 PM
  23. gollum18's Avatar
    I realize that it's impossible for me to have any type of reasonable religious discussion if it's based on someone believing that God did this or that or even that God exists. I am an Atheist and would have to start at a logical point to discuss religion. Not on a basis that God did this or God did that. I don't want to get simple minded or dramatic but John Lennon said it quite well....... "God is a concept by which we measure ourselves". To me there is no such thing as God.
    Well said. That's why I've kept myself out of here as well.

    Sprint GS3 Running TN's Msg and Chubbs
    msndrstood likes this.
    07-06-2013 07:09 PM
  24. AngelArs's Avatar
    Hey AngelArs, think you can tone it down a little and show some mutual respect? I know it's easy to be aggressive in anonymity, but see if you can let off the gas some.
    llamabreath, I find your post offensive, but I'm not going to make a big deal about it. Life is too short. First of all, just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they aren't showing respect. That's your assumption. I posted facts, and no where in post#56 was any of what they said mentioned, so they were back-peddling. They could have just as easily have said something like "I think you misunderstand my comment" or "I'm referring to what I said 10 posts ago" but then didn't. Maybe they assumed that I was replying to something else, but that would be their assumption. I was only replying directly to the previous comment that they made. If the obvious seemed aggressive then I'm sorry. It's very easy, if someone says that the sun is an ice cube and they state it as a fact, then they'd better be able to prove there assertion with facts. If they can't then don't cry foul. That's not mature, or fair. I know it's hard to interpret someones intentions in the printed word but I assure I was just sticking to the facts, and I'd appreciate it if you'd do the same. Glad we could clear this up. Looking forward to your posting of factual information. Thank you.
    07-06-2013 07:12 PM
  25. llamabreath's Avatar
    I realize that it's impossible for me to have any type of reasonable religious discussion if it's based on someone believing that God did this or that or even that God exists. I am an Atheist and would have to start at a logical point to discuss religion. Not on a basis that God did this or God did that. I don't want to get simple minded or dramatic but John Lennon said it quite well....... "God is a concept by which we measure ourselves". To me there is no such thing as God.
    Believe me, there was no bigger Atheist than me. But over the last ten years, my wife has slowly (and i mean SLOWLY) gotten me to reconsider. Maybe it's just to keep from arguing, i don't know.

    Sent from Hotlanta via New Yawk
    msndrstood likes this.
    07-06-2013 07:15 PM
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