07-08-2013 11:52 PM
230 ... 23456 ...
tools
  1. cdmjlt369's Avatar
    I realize that it's impossible for me to have any type of reasonable religious discussion if it's based on someone believing that God did this or that or even that God exists. I am an Atheist and would have to start at a logical point to discuss religion. Not on a basis that God did this or God did that. I don't want to get simple minded or dramatic but John Lennon said it quite well....... "God is a concept by which we measure ourselves". To me there is no such thing as God.
    So because I believe in God I'm unreasonable? So I believe God exists and he is the architect of the world I see before me. You believe that a big ball of gas exploded and that is responsible for the world you see before you. I fail to see how this makes me unreasonable.

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app
    07-06-2013 07:15 PM
  2. AngelArs's Avatar
    I realize that it's impossible for me to have any type of reasonable religious discussion if it's based on someone believing that God did this or that or even that God exists. I am an Atheist and would have to start at a logical point to discuss religion. Not on a basis that God did this or God did that. I don't want to get simple minded or dramatic but John Lennon said it quite well....... "God is a concept by which we measure ourselves".
    Well said! This is a religious thread so of course they are going to get frustrated when the facts reveal what they do.

    Miss John Lennon. 'Imagine' is one of my favorite songs.
    07-06-2013 07:16 PM
  3. AngelArs's Avatar
    So because I believe in God I'm unreasonable?
    Not at all. Until very recently I used to believe in god too. Ironically it was Morgan Freeman that convinced me of the facts (see, told you I was open-minded, LOL). I think it all comes down to what each persons definition of 'god' is. I think everyones definition is slightly different, and that makes things hard, or at least harder, to discuss.
    07-06-2013 07:22 PM
  4. badbrad17's Avatar
    There's so many illogical things to me here, but I'll see if I can take them one by one...

    This makes no sense at all. If God created everything, then he created all the dark stuff too, including the concept of sin. So saying that God made us in order to be in a place where there wasn't sin, is to say God created us in order to have fellowship away from the very thing God created....since he created everything. It is illogical. Perhaps I just don't understand your comment. I must admit, despite seeing hundreds of people discuss this subject over the decades, I have never seen anyone phrase it quite that way before so I very well may be missing something. I don't see how making us = a fellowship WITHOUT sin, since man is referred to as a sinful creature.
    Well again I will say that I have an opinion on this but I don't claim it to be the same as all Christians. But here you go. Sorry it's gonna be long :what:

    Earlier I mentioned that God sometimes allows things to happen in order to maintain freewill. This is an important part to the puzzle and it is the difference between God being a puppet master and someone who allows us to choose him. There is one thing that hasn't been discussed but is also important. The knowledge of Good and Evil. Adam and Eve were ignorant of this before they chose to sin. So essentially God created them perfect but made sure that they could choose their own fate. Had Adam and Eve not sinned then we may all have lived in blissful harmony. But after that event we were essentially damned at birth.

    So the question is... How would we have freewill if we didn't have a choice? How could we choose or reject God on our own terms? Or what would be the choice without both good and evil being present? There wouldn't be one. So in my opinion God didn't create the darkness as there is no darkness in him, but he allows us and the angels to have free will. Satan rebelled and brought this rebellion into existence. This is no different than the parents of a serial killer. The parents created him but didn't intend for the outcome of their child's life. Satan was a angel with much power. He was created and became greedy and he let it corrupt him. He said he wanted to be like the most high. Pride standeth before the fall and all that.

    So then we are faced with why did God create Satan in the first place if he knew he would rebel? I will honestly say I am unsure about exactly where omnipotence and omnipresence start and end in all of it. I need to read more about it. But the Bible does say that God created us and we are like clay in a potters hand. The clay can't tell the potter what it wants. This may offend some people but maybe God created Satan for the purpose of creating our freedom of choice. This freedom is the key to the entire thing because God could see that there was no way that we could live perfectly good no matter what was created. God can't duplicate himself. So instead he offered up his own life to pay the price for our sin which is death. He is perfect and can't tolerate sin or evil. It's an interesting paradox to some degree. He devised a plan that allows us to be free beings and still exist with him eternally. The end game is written in the Book of Revelation. God gives everyone the choice to choose or reject him even when they know he exists. Some people believe that many people will reject God purely for selfish reasons and pride similar to Satan. After all there were other demons that fell with Satan, so they believe in God too.

    Original plan? Then this implies there is some sort of backup plan. Why would an all seeing being need a backup plan? They would be able to foresee the outcome ahead of time. If there's another plan, then either God isn't the all-seeing creature portrayed in religion, or is prone to changes of mind a lot.
    Sorry I may not have worded that properly. There was only one plan. I should have said opportunity to do good and not disobey God. Adam and Eve had an opportunity to not disobey but they didn't so God created a perfect plan that allowed the outcome to occur. It takes us back to the puppet master scenario. He allowed the outcome to happen in order for us to gain forgiveness and freedom.

    Why would another creature such as Satan exist? Why would they have the power to control anything? To make that comment, is to suggest that rather their being one pilot at the helm, God has an evil co-pilot. Why? Why, if God were the one to create everything and therefore be the top dog, why would he share power like that??? This makes no sense to me. On a related note, if God created everything, then he also created evil and Satan too. Right???
    Yes God created Lucifer. An angel ironically in charge of music. He was supposed to be the most beautiful as well.

    Without repeating myself. Lucifer was created with the freewill to serve and worship God and live in bliss. He wanted more so God expelled him. Yet God then took opportunity to use Satan for his interests which was to create us in order to have beings that are completely dedicated to him and to worship him. He is perfect and we are not. We can choose to live in God's will and presence or not. He forces no one. Angels had a different purpose.

    So a powerful being that created all the plants, animals, man, and even the stars above had only one way feasible to handle a situation? That doesn't seem to jive with that all powerful part. A being of that power would have lots of options...or at least they should. Not just one.
    Puppet master scenario again. In fact the angels were originally created to be subservient beings that basically stood around and worshipped God. People are different. It's a complex subject.

    Why does God allow Satan to exist, again???? And God can't allow evil to live in his presence, yet he created everything thereby created the evil he is now trying to avoid???? It sounds prefect alright....perfectly confusing.
    I think I covered this. If not I can elaborate.

    doesn't imply equal. And things in both the Bible as well as how religion has treated women over the centuries points to that. Eve came second so women are treated secondARY. And other then to support and reinforce Biblical belief that it's a man's world first and formost, I believe the stories have been written to reflect that attitude...hence Eve comes later...following behind the man like some religions still profess to this day.
    This is certainly a tough subject because it implies that if we come second then we are less important to God. This is not the case. You could even say that Adam tried it on his own and needed a woman to help get the job done. I will say that leadership is different than dictatorship. Love comes first and men are commanded to love their wives. I have studied this a lot with my wife and it is a big topic that has clear answers. We could discuss it in more detail if you like.

    So your premise is that we used to live forever??? This flies in the face of every single thing in the universe. Even the stars themselves die. It also runs counter to the finite amount of space we are living on. If there were just two people forever, they wouldn't need such a big planet. If on the other hand those people produced children, and everyone lived forever and didn't decay or die, we would have ran out of room a long time ago. Either way, it doesn't work. And I am just not buying that people wouldn't have found the idea of sleeping with a parent or sibling and producing children with them just as creepy then as now. Ewwww.
    I believe that Adam and Eve were created as perfectly beings that would not die. God created them to have friends and company. He gave them everything with the one regarding the tree of life. Eat from all others but that one or you will surely die. Many scholars believes that up until Eve ate from that tree that there was no death or decay at all anywhere. Universally. Once sin was executed the second law of thermodynamics began and entropy occurred. After this God commanded Adam and Eve to go out and multiply the Earth.

    I think it was all part of the bigger plan which unfortunately for Jesus meant he would have to die for the rest of our mistakes.

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    07-06-2013 07:27 PM
  5. AngelArs's Avatar
    Yes God created Lucifer.
    If someone could prove to you through historical factual data that satan was a man made concept, how would that effect your beliefs in your religion?
    07-06-2013 07:44 PM
  6. Fairclough's Avatar
    Oh my! Family drama is the worst kind. Hopefully you can sort it out. May want to council your boyfriend that parents are always right no matter what lol.

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    Its a quote from fmylife.com not me, however I find them gold.

    Posted via the mystical forest creatures that power this Nexus 4.
    badbrad17 likes this.
    07-06-2013 07:50 PM
  7. Fairclough's Avatar
    I think we're missing the real question.


    Who made God?

    Posted via the mystical forest creatures that power this Nexus 4.
    Wiley_11 likes this.
    07-06-2013 07:53 PM
  8. palandri's Avatar
    I have a couple of questions for the Christians. You do realize that the majority of the people in world are non-Christians (like around 66% are non-Christians)? What happens to non-Christians when they die? What makes Christianity the correct path, compared to the all the non-Christians path?
    GadgetGator likes this.
    07-06-2013 07:59 PM
  9. AngelArs's Avatar
    I think we're missing the real question.


    Who made God?.
    You're assuming that there is a god. If god exist then "he" /it must have been created. So who created him?

    07-06-2013 08:23 PM
  10. AngelArs's Avatar
    What happens to non-Christians when they die?
    You can even take that one step further. What happened to all the millions of humans that came before christianity was started? Guess they all went to "hell" for no reason. Wait, that's not fair....
    GadgetGator likes this.
    07-06-2013 08:27 PM
  11. badbrad17's Avatar
    If someone could prove to you through historical factual data that satan was a man made concept, how would that effect your beliefs in your religion?
    Hit me with your best shot.

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    07-06-2013 08:31 PM
  12. AngelArs's Avatar
    Hit me with your best shot.
    Good song, but that doesn't answer my question.
    badbrad17 likes this.
    07-06-2013 08:44 PM
  13. Wiley_11's Avatar
    I think we're missing the real question.
    Who made God?
    That's been my favorite question for ~40 years. My second favorite, for the last ~10 years, is: Does the almighty have a male reproductive part (man made is his image thingy) and if so what the heck does he do with it?!?!

    My *belief* is time/space/life are infinite.
    07-06-2013 09:10 PM
  14. badbrad17's Avatar
    I have a couple of questions for the Christians. You do realize that the majority of the people in world are non-Christians (like around 66% are non-Christians)? What happens to non-Christians when they die? What makes Christianity the correct path, compared to the all the non-Christians path?
    The key difference between Christianity and all other religions is that Jesus is a savior from sin and claimed to be God in the flesh. All other religions do not claim this. Most claim to be prophets or messengers of God.

    I believe everyone will have the opportunity to accept or reject Jesus regardless of religious orientation. God will make himself know to all. If they choose to reject him then they will enter a place where God does not exist for eternity. You can call it hell but that term has been exaggerated. Regardless a place devoid of anything good will not be pleasant.

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    07-06-2013 09:26 PM
  15. badbrad17's Avatar
    You can even take that one step further. What happened to all the millions of humans that came before christianity was started? Guess they all went to "hell" for no reason. Wait, that's not fair....
    Actually the bible discusses this and it is a topic of debate. Many believe that when Jesus died he descended to Hell or outer darkness to minister to those who were dead. The Bible says that Jesus will come to take his believers to heaven. You may have heard of the Rapture.

    1 Thessalonians 4:14-17

    For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.[a]

    15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    07-06-2013 09:33 PM
  16. badbrad17's Avatar
    I think we're missing the real question.


    Who made God?

    Posted via the mystical forest creatures that power this Nexus 4.
    Why do you assume he was created?

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    07-06-2013 09:37 PM
  17. badbrad17's Avatar
    Good song, but that doesn't answer my question.
    Oh you mean hypothetically? Well it would be hard to sway my beliefs based on something that is defined by men. My belief system goes beyond what is told to me. God has changed me. I can't deny that experience no matter what someone says to me.

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    07-06-2013 09:41 PM
  18. AngelArs's Avatar
    Does the almighty have a male reproductive part (man made is his image thingy) and if so what the heck does he do with it?!?!
    Apparently that's why the new testament has a different tone....
    07-06-2013 09:43 PM
  19. AngelArs's Avatar
    If they choose to reject him then they will enter a place where God does not exist for eternity.
    So in other words heaven, because if you don't believe in him to begin with, and you're sent to a place where he doesn't exist, then they would be pretty happy with that huh?
    07-06-2013 09:47 PM
  20. AngelArs's Avatar
    My belief system goes beyond what is told to me.
    So you don't believe in faith? You either believe in faith or facts, which is it?
    07-06-2013 09:50 PM
  21. Serial Fordicator's Avatar
    Question, no offense, but what is the purpose of this thread? No one will change anyone's mind about what they believe. All I see are hard feelings. If someone believes in god or don't, why do any of us care? Is someone going to try to talk someone out of their religion? If they don't agree with you, are you going to think less of them? Public ridicule?


    Sent from my DROID RAZR using Android Central Forums
    badbrad17 likes this.
    07-06-2013 09:50 PM
  22. llamabreath's Avatar
    Question, no offense, but what is the purpose of this thread? No one will change anyone's mind about what they believe. All I see are hard feelings. If someone believes in god or don't, why do any of us care? Is someone going to try to talk someone out of their religion? If they don't agree with you, are you going to think less of them? Public ridicule?


    Sent from my DROID RAZR using Android Central Forums
    The thread is not to change anybody's mind, no, it's just to see what people are thinking, get their experiences, etc.

    There shouldn't be anything wrong with it if it can stay (somewhat) civil.

    Sent from Hotlanta via New Yawk
    badbrad17, Aquila and msndrstood like this.
    07-06-2013 10:02 PM
  23. badbrad17's Avatar
    So in other words heaven, because if you don't believe in him to begin with, and you're sent to a place where he doesn't exist, then they would be pretty happy with that huh?
    You can try it out and see how you like it

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    07-06-2013 10:06 PM
  24. GadgetGator's Avatar
    Earlier I mentioned that God sometimes allows things to happen in order to maintain freewill. This is an important part to the puzzle and it is the difference between God being a puppet master and someone who allows us to choose him. There is one thing that hasn't been discussed but is also important. The knowledge of Good and Evil. Adam and Eve were ignorant of this before they chose to sin. So essentially God created them perfect but made sure that they could choose their own fate.
    How could they be determining their own fate if they were ignorant to the choices? If you have no concept of evil, then they can't even know what they are deciding. It's like sitting a four year old in front of two contracts and telling him to sign one and live his whole life based on what decision he makes right then and there. Ignoring the fact that he cannot read and doesn't even know what he is choosing...which yet again is (here's that word again....) illogical.

    Had Adam and Eve not sinned then we may all have lived in blissful harmony. But after that event we were essentially damned at birth.
    So basically you are contradicting the freewill stuff saying that in fact, we aren't being given a choice....we're just damned at birth. So much for freewill. The cards are stacked against you from the start!!! That's not freewill, or free choice. That's called rigging the table in a certain favor. Another illogical part to this is the idea that everyone that ever would live, must pay the price for someone else's "sinful" deed. That makes zero sense. If you commit a crime, do you think that every child and grandchild into infinity that will ever stem from you, should be punished for it???

    So the question is... How would we have freewill if we didn't have a choice? How could we choose or reject God on our own terms? Or what would be the choice without both good and evil being present? There wouldn't be one. So in my opinion God didn't create the darkness as there is no darkness in him, but he allows us and the angels to have free will. Satan rebelled and brought this rebellion into existence. This is no different than the parents of a serial killer. The parents created him but didn't intend for the outcome of their child's life. Satan was a angel with much power. He was created and became greedy and he let it corrupt him. He said he wanted to be like the most high. Pride standeth before the fall and all that.
    Actually, it is different, because the parents of the serial killer only created the killer. They didn't also create the planet he lives on, the air he breathes, the universe he lives in or make any of the rules that all of humanity is subjected to. Nor did they give him the power to control other people's lives or power to play some co-staring role in an epic battle of good vs. evil.

    So then we are faced with why did God create Satan in the first place if he knew he would rebel? I will honestly say I am unsure about exactly where omnipotence and omnipresence start and end in all of it. I need to read more about it. But the Bible does say that God created us and we are like clay in a potters hand. The clay can't tell the potter what it wants. This may offend some people but maybe God created Satan for the purpose of creating our freedom of choice. This freedom is the key to the entire thing because God could see that there was no way that we could live perfectly good no matter what was created. God can't duplicate himself.
    So there's something God cannot do??? Then there's a problem with that whole omnipotent thing.

    Without repeating myself. Lucifer was created with the freewill to serve and worship God and live in bliss. He wanted more so God expelled him. Yet God then took opportunity to use Satan for his interests which was to create us in order to have beings that are completely dedicated to him and to worship him. He is perfect and we are not. We can choose to live in God's will and presence or not. He forces no one. Angels had a different purpose.
    I don't know...when I hear the words "serving" and "worshiping" it sounds more like bondage to me then freedom. I am sure we never will agree, but those terms just rub be the wrong way. I think to myself, why would a being that has everything need people idolizing him in some way?? I just don't like those terms. At all.

    Puppet master scenario again. In fact the angels were originally created to be subservient beings that basically stood around and worshipped God.
    And that basically reinforces my problem with that whole worship term. God needed beings to flutter around him and make him feel good and do what....bring him apples?? That definitely does NOT sound like free will at all.

    I believe that Adam and Eve were created as perfectly beings that would not die. God created them to have friends and company. He gave them everything with the one regarding the tree of life. Eat from all others but that one or you will surely die. Many scholars believes that up until Eve ate from that tree that there was no death or decay at all anywhere. Universally. Once sin was executed the second law of thermodynamics began and entropy occurred.
    So because a person ate from a certain tree, the entire UNIVERSE (and everything in it) were subject to a different rule at that point?? This may make the least sense of all. And sounds about as arrogant as a position as thinking the sun revolved around earth because surely we are so important we must be the center of the universe!!

    So if we discover aliens on other planets someday, they are subjected to the second law of thermodynamics because of something one of us did here once upon a time? I just don't buy that at all. In the grand scheme of the universe, I just don't think we are that important. We are in fact, a speck of dust with a collective lifespan of one second on the clock.
    palandri and msndrstood like this.
    07-06-2013 10:07 PM
  25. Aquila's Avatar
    It seems really simple... the common understanding of the bible, that is a laymen picking it up and reading the first layer of text aloud and believing it, is simply not true. Is it possible the deeper layers hold truth? Sure. Likely? Depends on what part and in what context. It is just not meant to be a textbook of universal mechanics or a "how to" guide for anything. Why, if it's not 6 literal 24 hour periods, does that invalidate anything in and by itself? Obviously that's not true. At that point, 24 hours was a meaningless time and even once we had an earth, it took less time to rotate than 24 hours.

    Nowhere does it say, "God created gravitational fields, carbon and helium, allowed stars to grow and die, explode and collapse, and of these events the Earth was formed, under the preexistent laws of Physics that God created. After billions of years, organic chemistry was formed in the milky way and a series of reactions and interactions over the next several hundred million years ultimately resulted in humans, of which nearly 20% believe all of this was created directly for them in it's current form."

    If the Bible said that, or had other similar statements explaining the actual mechanics of the universe, rather than fairy tales to explain what they couldn't understand in the bronze age, ... we'd have an interesting debate to begin about accuracy, meaning, etc. The simple fact is that the Bible is not infallible, or if it is, it requires an incredibly complex deconstruction and explanation, none of which is found in modern fundamentalist arguments. If you want to make the argument, "it says this, so that's what I believe, period", I'm sorry, but that's just incorrect information, and there's no point in trying to learn or discuss anything unless you want to study the relationship to the real universe.

    This does not address the issues of Faith in God or belief in the possibility of Physics being the tool of God, but when assumptions contradict reality in any other subject, people can amend or disregard bad assumptions. Is the assertion that the common people of the bronze age knew more about existence than we do now? Or is the assertion, "I just never thought it through and will always choose this one interpretation of this one book over any personal responsibility to honest thought"?

    The Bible cannot be used as evidence for it's own claims. To put it in meme terms, that's like checking your own math test based on your own notes... actually it's worse, it's like checking your math test based on the notes of a 2nd grader who speaks a different language than you and also believes the answer to any question she can't explain is, "because unicorns!". So if you want to have a rational debate about existence and morality, etc. it might be a good place to study not only your source, but the texts about it and it's context, as well as, you know... actual studies of existence and philosophy.

    There are two honest ways to go about this: 1. Start with astrophysics and work towards human psychology. 2. Start with quantum theory and work towards perception. Neither of these progressions requires anything supernatural to function logically. In an honest studious journey, "I don't know" should never be answered without asking a question. The mechanism of logic failure on one side of this seems to be, "I don't know, so God" - called 'God of the Gaps'. The other side of that perspective seems to say, "I don't know, lets do research".
    07-06-2013 10:16 PM
230 ... 23456 ...

Similar Threads

  1. List of all prepaid plans and providers
    By petergoogle in forum General News & Discussion
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 07-18-2013, 09:34 AM
  2. Neptoon's Net [All Ages] The Oceanic Cleanup Adventure!!
    By Neptoons Net in forum Android Games
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 07-10-2013, 12:41 PM
  3. Happy 4th of July
    By nickgalaxys4 in forum New to the Forums? Introduce Yourself Here!
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 07-05-2013, 11:20 PM
  4. Wi-Fi connected banner at bottom of screen
    By Jfazyankees13 in forum Samsung Galaxy S4
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-04-2013, 10:25 PM
  5. White background instead of black (solved)
    By Con Georgiadis in forum Samsung Galaxy S4
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-04-2013, 02:06 PM
LINK TO POST COPIED TO CLIPBOARD