12-13-2015 01:42 PM
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  1. JHBThree's Avatar
    But if he was trained to specifically search for this information and to obtain this job, why disclose the information at all to anyone, other than who it was intended for? There was some good from this, I mean the NSA did release that massive list of all the people they have spied on, you can actually probably type in your name (as well as mine) and we will probably show up in their database. That sounds like an invasion of privacy to me.
    Because he got the job with the intention to make it public.
    07-09-2013 07:18 PM
  2. cdmjlt369's Avatar
    Knowing a secret such as this and what to do with it? As long as he doesn't give up secrets to another country, I have no problem with him. Someone has to speak out for the people, the government is out of control. More of our rights being trampled everyday.
    Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app
    07-09-2013 07:23 PM
  3. Aquila's Avatar
    Lol, you read my mind.
    That's exactly why i tried to word my post in a way that he would, lol.

    Do you think i even came close?

    Just read this lol ... You did a better job then I did!

    Transmitted through spacetime.
    msndrstood likes this.
    07-09-2013 07:23 PM
  4. JHBThree's Avatar
    Hmmmmm.......I guess this doesn't mean anything anymore.

    Fourth Amendment: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

    How is Snowden any different than our Founding Fathers actions against *The Evul British Overlords*? Oh well......off to see who gets voted off the island.
    Snowden shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as the founding fathers, let alone in the same sentence. He has no honor, he has no wisdom.

    Regardless of your point of view on the information that was revealed, the way he got it makes him deserving of the punishment that is coming his way.
    msndrstood, nolittdroid and Aquila like this.
    07-09-2013 07:24 PM
  5. JHBThree's Avatar
    Knowing a secret such as this and what to do with it? As long as he doesn't give up secrets to another country, I have no problem with him. Someone has to speak out for the people, the government is out of control. More of our rights being trampled everyday.
    Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app
    Considering he fled to Russia, his laptop has certainly been thoroughly examined by their intelligence agency.

    There's a difference between revealing something that you find while you're working, and going in with the intent to find something (anything) and reveal that, regardless of the aftermath.
    msndrstood likes this.
    07-09-2013 07:26 PM
  6. Aquila's Avatar
    Aren't all seekers of truth and justice but mere *scumbags* to a tyrant?
    Absolutely. We, the tyrants and I, agree he's a scumbag, but for different reasons.

    Transmitted through spacetime.
    Wiley_11 and msndrstood like this.
    07-09-2013 07:29 PM
  7. llamabreath's Avatar
    Just read this lol ... You did a better job then I did!

    Transmitted through spacetime.
    Ahhhh... a complimentary comment derived via the echelon most elevated.

    Aquila and msndrstood like this.
    07-09-2013 07:36 PM
  8. Fairclough's Avatar
    Traitor.

    I don't know about the US but our Government is allowed to tap our lines of communication for ages. On average there is 10 taps a day. Granted the court allows the tap to go a head. Generally the taps are mainly done for drug offences, e.g of you get caught doing a small drug deal guess who's phone is tapped for future investigations.

    To be fair I think this is reasonable. Seriously who was seriously thinking prior to this government didn't have access to our phone records?

    Posted via the mystical forest creatures that power this Nexus 4.
    msndrstood likes this.
    07-09-2013 07:39 PM
  9. Aquila's Avatar
    Hmmmmm.......I guess this doesn't mean anything anymore.

    Fourth Amendment: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

    How is Snowden any different than our Founding Fathers actions against *The Evul British Overlords*? Oh well......off to see who gets voted off the island.
    I'm a big fan of that amendment. For me the only real distinction is the methodology and the fact that they stood behind their choices with their lives, willing to sacrifice in order to preserve liberty for generations to come.
    Wiley_11 and msndrstood like this.
    07-09-2013 07:47 PM
  10. Farish's Avatar
    Let me add one more thing.

    I disagree with what the NSA is doing currently. I don't believe the NSA needs every single phone call or website or email. I do believe there are specific groups and members of those groups they need to target.

    Obviously what they are doing is much much more far reaching than that.
    07-09-2013 07:52 PM
  11. Wiley_11's Avatar
    I agree with you. I don't like the thought that everything we do or say is recorded.
    I don't know how old you are, but for the millennials, this is SOP. For those of us who are older, it is a completely different world from when we grew up and you could run the streets until dark because you knew the neighbors are watching out for you.

    People stepped in to help if they saw someone lost or in trouble. Those days are long gone, obviously. The world has changed, it's meaner and a lot more self centered than ever. My point is, the genie is out of the bottle. We might be able to rein it in, but I don't think we can ever go back to the days of just the neighbors watching out for us.

    Sent via Note II
    It's quite a "Revolting Development" to say the least!
    msndrstood and Aquila like this.
    07-09-2013 08:38 PM
  12. Wiley_11's Avatar
    To be fair I think this is reasonable. Seriously who was seriously thinking prior to this government didn't have access to our phone records.
    Up until last week our European Allies embassies for one.
    msndrstood likes this.
    07-09-2013 08:52 PM
  13. JHBThree's Avatar
    Let me add one more thing.

    I disagree with what the NSA is doing currently. I don't believe the NSA needs every single phone call or website or email. I do believe there are specific groups and members of those groups they need to target.

    Obviously what they are doing is much much more far reaching than that.
    Yes. I think people need to separate disapproval of what Snowden did with the NSA's actions. Just because I find Snowden to be a detestable smarmy sack of crap doesn't mean I approve of what the NSA is doing.
    msndrstood and Aquila like this.
    07-09-2013 08:54 PM
  14. pappy53's Avatar
    He is a traitor on the run.
    07-09-2013 11:23 PM
  15. Dugisme's Avatar
    He didn't even try to go through the whistle blower system. Should have met with a Senator or congressperson, gone through the hoops, and acted the brave American. Instead, he broke his word about top secret matters, and ran away. Basicly, now he is just a criminal, even though he meant well. As for that, he only confirmed what everybody knew or suspected anyway. And niw he can never go home. Not ecen to be buried. Unlss a deal is reached.

    [edited by moderator]

    Sent from my GT-N8013 using AC Forums mobile app
    msndrstood likes this.
    07-10-2013 12:03 AM
  16. palandri's Avatar
    I think it's deeper than is he a hero or is he a traitor.

    We teach our kids not to fight, but then we go to war.

    We tell our kids to always be open and honest and to always to the truth, but then we have secrets. How can you you be totally open and honest, but have secrets?

    Why do we have secrets? Is there any other reason than I am one up on you? Or to hide the truth? Is that the type of society that we really want? Everyone trying to be one up on the other.

    It's much deeper than is he a hero or traitor.
    07-10-2013 12:50 AM
  17. JHBThree's Avatar
    I think it's deeper than is he a hero or is he a traitor.

    We teach our kids not to fight, but then we go to war.

    We tell our kids to always be open and honest and to always to the truth, but then we have secrets. How can you you be totally open and honest, but have secrets?

    Why do we have secrets? Is there any other reason than I am one up on you? Is that the type of society that we really want? Everyone trying to be one up on the other.

    It's much deeper than is he a hero or traitor.

    I am going back to Proxima Centauri tonight.
    Uh, no. We have secrets because there are bad people in the world that want to harm us, and the methods for catching them/stopping their violence can't be broadcasted all over.

    It would be nice to live in a world where secrets like this aren't necessary, but we don't. It's not really even worth discussing.
    palandri and msndrstood like this.
    07-10-2013 12:54 AM
  18. palandri's Avatar
    Uh, no. We have secrets because there are bad people in the world that want to harm us, and the methods for catching them/stopping their violence can't be broadcasted all over.

    It would be nice to live in a world where secrets like this aren't necessary, but we don't. It's not really even worth discussing.
    I hear ya, but I still think it's much deeper. Are these bad people bad because they're evil by birth? or because of something else?
    07-10-2013 01:01 AM
  19. JHBThree's Avatar
    I hear ya, but I still think it's much deeper. Are these bad people bad because they're evil by birth? or because of something else?
    Not really relevant to what this thread is about.
    palandri likes this.
    07-10-2013 01:05 AM
  20. palandri's Avatar
    Not really relevant to what this thread is about.
    I respect your opinion, but I still think it's deeper than that. I think we need to look at the whole subject of "secrets". Bradley Manning exposed secrets, that made us look bad, but they were facts, correct? Snowden exposed secrets, but they were facts, correct? So we're are prosecuting people for exposing facts? Oh wait, they're secrets. Like I said, it's deeper than is he a hero or traitor. Just my 2 cents
    07-10-2013 01:12 AM
  21. JHBThree's Avatar
    I respect your opinion, but I still think it's deeper than that. I think we need to look at the whole subject of "secrets". Bradley Manning exposed secrets, that made us look bad, but they were facts, correct? Snowden exposed secrets, but they were facts, correct? So we're are prosecuting people for exposing facts? Oh wait, they're secrets. Like I said, it's deeper than is he a hero or traitor. Just my 2 cents
    They're being prosecuted for leaking information that aided and abetted terrorists, not just because they exposed facts. It is irrelevant that they are facts because they were classified for a reason. Now entire avenues of intelligence gathering (whether you agree with them or not) are closed off and can no longer be used.

    Manning stole information indiscriminately without any regard to what he was taking and the damage it may cause. (And it certainly caused damage, both in diplomatic relations and in the unmasking of informants and undercover agents in dangerous territories)

    Snowden got a job with an intelligence contractor specifically with the intent to steal information and leak it. That's called espionage.

    I understand where you're coming from, but when you're talking about classified information, the questions you're asking aren't really applicable.

    Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk 2
    Fairclough and msndrstood like this.
    07-10-2013 02:13 AM
  22. Live2ride883's Avatar
    Let me add one more thing.

    I disagree with what the NSA is doing currently. I don't believe the NSA needs every single phone call or website or email. I do believe there are specific groups and members of those groups they need to target.

    Obviously what they are doing is much much more far reaching than that.
    Maybe you should go to work for the IRS, but what I want to know is who determines which groups deserve to be targeted, who chooses those groups, and what actions of those groups land them on that list???
    07-10-2013 09:10 AM
  23. palandri's Avatar
    They're being prosecuted for leaking information that aided and abetted terrorists, not just because they exposed facts. It is irrelevant that they are facts because they were classified for a reason. Now entire avenues of intelligence gathering (whether you agree with them or not) are closed off and can no longer be used.

    Manning stole information indiscriminately without any regard to what he was taking and the damage it may cause. (And it certainly caused damage, both in diplomatic relations and in the unmasking of informants and undercover agents in dangerous territories)

    Snowden got a job with an intelligence contractor specifically with the intent to steal information and leak it. That's called espionage.

    I understand where you're coming from, but when you're talking about classified information, the questions you're asking aren't really applicable.

    Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk 2
    Don't get me wrong. I don't want anybody hurt due to, "factual secrets" being exposed.

    I don't have a list of everything Manning exposed, nor do I have a desire to look it up. I remember there was a video of a mistake some helicopters made firing on journalist. Why hide it? If you hide stuff you look really bad if it gets exposed. Lets be open and honest, and then things (secrets) won't come back to haunt us. I remember some diplomatic memos, like we would let Karzai fall if there was a popular uprising against him. Why hide it? Tell Karzai that to his face. Lets be open and honest.

    Was Manning putting out information like we are hitting Fallujah tomorrow with a left flank maneuver? If he was, I have a problem with that, it puts peoples lives at risk.

    I don't think Manning will every see the light of day again. Snowden might as well give himself up. If he goes and hides in a South American country, Seal Team 6 will pick him up and bring him back.
    07-10-2013 09:27 AM
  24. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    Maybe you should go to work for the IRS, but what I want to know is who determines which groups deserve to be targeted, who chooses those groups, and what actions of those groups land them on that list???
    My guess is that it's some "top-level" intelligence officer, and that the reasons are very ambiguous.


    I have mixed feelings about the whole situation. For those that are saying "he didn't give information to any other country" he made the information public right? That makes it accessible to EVERYONE, EVERYWHERE, which is far different than selectively releasing it to other third parties. Could he not have accomplished the exact same thing without giving out specifics about the program?

    We live in an era where we need to know things about what people are doing, and no, I don't like it either, but it's the hard truth that we have to accept some level of invasion for the security that we expect.

    I don't want to know every little thing that they collect, because if I know, then the people they are tracking for legitimate reasons will also know, and can then find ways to circumvent the system. That renders it ineffective, and is a huge waste of money at that point.

    I don't like what the NSA (or other intelligence agencies) are doing, but I also don't like the way Snowden went about doing what he did. He specifically engaged in activities that undermined numerous levels of security clearances that he had access to, employment agreements that he signed, he's damaged our reputation with key allies, hurt our ability to effectively gather intelligence on the people that we NEED to be gathering it on, and wasted tax payer money because of it.

    Until the "war" is over we will have to be ok with the level of intelligence they are gathering. It was the same with Lincoln during the Civil War (it's well documented that they set up an office to intercept all telegraph communication), I'm sure these things happened during all the other wars too. Our allies are definitely doing the same sorts of things, they just haven't been caught yet.

    It's just the way it is, and it will honestly probably never stop. Information is how you stay ahead. The better the information, the better you are at "the game".
    msndrstood and Aquila like this.
    07-10-2013 09:48 AM
  25. Aquila's Avatar
    My guess is that it's some "top-level" intelligence officer, and that the reasons are very ambiguous.


    I have mixed feelings about the whole situation. For those that are saying "he didn't give information to any other country" he made the information public right? That makes it accessible to EVERYONE, EVERYWHERE, which is far different than selectively releasing it to other third parties. Could he not have accomplished the exact same thing without giving out specifics about the program?

    We live in an era where we need to know things about what people are doing, and no, I don't like it either, but it's the hard truth that we have to accept some level of invasion for the security that we expect.

    I don't want to know every little thing that they collect, because if I know, then the people they are tracking for legitimate reasons will also know, and can then find ways to circumvent the system. That renders it ineffective, and is a huge waste of money at that point.

    I don't like what the NSA (or other intelligence agencies) are doing, but I also don't like the way Snowden went about doing what he did. He specifically engaged in activities that undermined numerous levels of security clearances that he had access to, employment agreements that he signed, he's damaged our reputation with key allies, hurt our ability to effectively gather intelligence on the people that we NEED to be gathering it on, and wasted tax payer money because of it.

    Until the "war" is over we will have to be ok with the level of intelligence they are gathering. It was the same with Lincoln during the Civil War (it's well documented that they set up an office to intercept all telegraph communication), I'm sure these things happened during all the other wars too. Our allies are definitely doing the same sorts of things, they just haven't been caught yet.

    It's just the way it is, and it will honestly probably never stop. Information is how you stay ahead. The better the information, the better you are at "the game".
    Very good points, another one: For those of us that need security clearances for our jobs... how much more in depth are those investigations about to become? For example, the media made a big deal out of Snowden's comments on tech blog forums... currently clearances are personal, credit, educatoin, employment and criminal histories + character references. It's a real possibility that my comments here could be taken into account the next time I need to resubmit for a transfer, etc. I stand by my comments, but it might take a LOT of explaining to provide the context to someone investigating applicants. I'm not saying that's a logical next step for them, but if it becomes one, how will we argue? Oh yeah... clearances are a formality and should be lax... until someone goes in and kicks mud in their face. I like whistle blowers being protected and there is a right way to do it, but this wasn't it. We just don't live in a country where they're not going to overreact to this, so unless he's willing to either stand up or to fight back, this was a relatively useless gesture. It's not like they're shutting down the programs. The public pretty much yawned.
    07-10-2013 09:56 AM
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