12-13-2015 01:42 PM
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  1. sooner7's Avatar
    My goodness.. if any of you think the NSA is doing this to protect us from 'terrorists', you deserve no liberty. It makes people sound juvenile when they are all like "but they're doing it to protect us, and he exposed those secrets that protect us" or "there are so many bad people that want to hurt Americans."

    Yes a small subset of people want to hurt us, I guess that means everyone needs to be monitored.
    I guess next time I get a cut, why put a band aid on the cut? When I can just cover my WHOLE body.

    "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
    GadgetGator, gabbott and retsaw like this.
    07-10-2013 11:23 AM
  2. GadgetGator's Avatar
    If he'd done this in the 50's and 60's, there would be no debate on this issue. I'm not clear on why anyone would think he's a hero. He plotted against the government, he stole intelligence, he stole US property and probably gave the info to other countries. What makes him different than a hacker?
    People think of him in somewhat heroic terms because he exposed what was going on. I always figured this stuff was going on, but it seems like the average person never considered it. So I think we are all better off for knowing. Do I like that he is in places like China and Russia with laptops? No. Absolutely not. But do I like that he exposed these efforts to begin with? Hell yes. The light of day should not only be shined on other governments and what they are up to, but in a free society, should be aimed at our own government as well. And it shouldn't require a prison sentence to do so either.

    I appreciate that. I think it's pretty funny that all the offers of asylum have been from left wing socialist countries. Considering he is quoted as saying in 2007 that anyone who leaks Intel 'should have his ***** shot off'. His words. I think he's looking for infamy.
    Maybe. But the reason he is getting offers from only socialist countries is because most of the other ones have extradition agreements with the U.S. So while being ironic, it's a logical outcome. If no country had extradition agreements, things would look much different and he wouldn't be holed up in a Moscow airport. He'd probably be in Canada or some country in Europe.

    Even when it damages our security? How about the fact that he ran? And did he give information to other countries? Where do you draw the line? When is a traitor a traitor? All of this stuff isn't new news, it's been done for a long time. It might not make it right, but why the outcry now? Why didn't Americans stand up and voice their outrage when the Patriot Act was passed?

    I'll admit, I don't like him or his tactics. I think he's out for something that is not so altruistic as he wants us to believe, but rather a self serving act for fame or fortune. I think there is a lot more to his story.
    So what would you have done? If you worked in classified programs, and saw all sorts of things that you thought the American people should be wise to, what would YOU have done? Would you just keep your mouth shut so you didn't go to jail and keep letting it happen and the public being oblivious to it? Would you have let yourself go to jail knowing that once you were in custody people would no longer have access to you or listen to you making your whistleblowing far far less effective? Or would you go on the run so you still had a voice out there? It's not so easy of a decision.

    As to our security...I'll have some thoughts on that later.
    07-10-2013 11:26 AM
  3. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    People think of him in somewhat heroic terms because he exposed what was going on. I always figured this stuff was going on, but it seems like the average person never considered it. So I think we are all better off for knowing. Do I like that he is in places like China and Russia with laptops? No. Absolutely not. But do I like that he exposed these efforts to begin with? Hell yes. The light of day should not only be shined on other governments and what they are up to, but in a free society, should be aimed at our own government as well. And it shouldn't require a prison sentence to do so either.



    Maybe. But the reason he is getting offers from only socialist countries is because most of the other ones have extradition agreements with the U.S. So while being ironic, it's a logical outcome. If no country had extradition agreements, things would look much different and he wouldn't be holed up in a Moscow airport. He'd probably be in Canada or some country in Europe.



    So what would you have done? If you worked in classified programs, and saw all sorts of things that you thought the American people should be wise to, what would YOU have done? Would you just keep your mouth shut so you didn't go to jail and keep letting it happen and the public being oblivious to it? Would you have let yourself go to jail knowing that once you were in custody people would no longer have access to you or listen to you making your whistleblowing far far less effective? Or would you go on the run so you still had a voice out there? It's not so easy of a decision.

    As to our security...I'll have some thoughts on that later.
    You HAVE to keep your mouth shut. Besides, the point is that he specifically went out to find this information. Which is much different than "OMG i can't believe this is happening". So, he went in with malice IMO.

    It's not your job to judge whether or not what's specifically going on is legal or needs to be spelled out to the public. You can be a "whistleblower" and not give out specific information that could put operations, and those performing those operations, in jeopardy.

    Again, part of my mixed feelings about it here:

    We elect the people that make the decisions. Those people that are appointed are appointed by our elected officials. Part of the reason we elect them (at least it's SUPPOSED TO BE) is that they agree with what we agree with. Why would you vote for someone that doesn't share your views? By extension, then, we agree that things need to be done to assure our security. These programs have been approved by Congress more than once, so they were in agreement that this needed to happen. I'm not arguing about what was or wasn't said in those briefings, but it's not hard to believe that they knew the extent to which the monitoring was being done. It's naive to think that we would be secure without these sorts of things going on. Anybody that says we don't need these programs to have the level of security that we desire from our government is a little short sited I think.
    msndrstood likes this.
    07-10-2013 11:34 AM
  4. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    Besides, we're ok with giving information on just about EVERYTHING we do to Google just to use a phone....
    msndrstood likes this.
    07-10-2013 11:53 AM
  5. retsaw's Avatar
    Besides, we're ok with giving information on just about EVERYTHING we do to Google just to use a phone....
    Speak for yourself. The data I give to Google is quite limited. And the difference is I chose what I share with Google and when I share it and I can stop sharing my information with them at any time.
    GadgetGator likes this.
    07-10-2013 12:27 PM
  6. llamabreath's Avatar
    Speak for yourself. The data I give to Google is quite limited. And the difference is I chose what I share with Google and when I share it and I can stop sharing my information with them at any time.
    You seriously believe that?

    msndrstood likes this.
    07-10-2013 01:30 PM
  7. retsaw's Avatar
    You seriously believe that?

    Yes. At the moment I trust Google won't snoop on my phone use unless I give them permission to. Besides they would be in deep **** in the EU if they were found to be spying on their users.
    07-10-2013 01:50 PM
  8. llamabreath's Avatar
    Yes. At the moment I trust Google won't snoop on my phone use unless I give them permission to. Besides they would be in deep **** in the EU if they were found to be spying on their users.
    Ok :thumbup:

    07-10-2013 02:00 PM
  9. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    Yes. At the moment I trust Google won't snoop on my phone use unless I give them permission to. Besides they would be in deep **** in the EU if they were found to be spying on their users.
    Are you in the EU? Also, do you use Google Now, and does it give cards for tracking packages that you have shipped?
    msndrstood likes this.
    07-10-2013 03:12 PM
  10. retsaw's Avatar
    Yes I'm in the EU, and no I don't use Google Now. My point was not everybody is consenting to have every last detail of their life tracked by Google (or Facebook).
    07-10-2013 03:54 PM
  11. llamabreath's Avatar
    Yes I'm in the EU, and no I don't use Google Now. My point was not everybody is consenting to have every last detail of their life tracked by Google (or Facebook).
    You don't think they've thought of a workaround? There IS NO privacy anymore. Thinking otherwise will be detrimental to you. Privacy is a dinosaur. All you need to do is turn on your smartphone. That's it. Why do you think they're so easily affordable now?

    07-10-2013 04:08 PM
  12. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    Yes I'm in the EU, and no I don't use Google Now. My point was not everybody is consenting to have every last detail of their life tracked by Google (or Facebook).
    If you have location services on AT ALL you are being tracked everywhere you go. The only way to NOT be tracked at all (and then be "mostly" off the radar) would be to use a dumbphone with a prepaid number on it.

    Also, if you have the Facebook app installed on your device AT ALL it's tracking you.

    Having this discussion isn't really on-topic, but it also kind of is. You can't use a smartphone and also think you can retain any of your privacy. You can somewhat limit things, but you're not limiting as much as you think.

    They say that, in general, the most elite special forces group in our military is using gear that's roughly 10-12 more advanced than anything consumers can get a hold of. I've spoke to a couple of them before, and they absolutely agreed that's true. No, they didn't get any more specific than that. Do you really believe that the most advanced intelligence agencies in the world don't have capabilities far beyond what any of us know?

    Even Snowden didn't get to the point where he knows everything that's going on.
    07-10-2013 04:31 PM
  13. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    Keep this in mind...you're connecting to the internet through some type of service provider right? I bet they are keeping very close track of where you go. Actually, I KNOW they are. You're browsing history is not safe. Neither are the packets of data that you send.
    07-10-2013 04:33 PM
  14. cdmjlt369's Avatar
    Yet you hear no one worrying about RFID chips and what's been done and being proposed to be done further. Some debit cards and credit cards already contain them.

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app
    07-10-2013 04:55 PM
  15. Aquila's Avatar
    There's also the obvious add on point to the data connection... it's either hitting a router or a cell tower, and in either case, even with a VPN, the origination of the signal is a known location. You might be able to make it take a little while to figure that location out with rerouting, masking, etc. but it is never difficult.
    07-10-2013 05:17 PM
  16. retsaw's Avatar
    I only have location services on when I need it, it is off the rest of the time. My point was that am not consenting to share most of my private information. It is wrong for my government to spy on me without reasonable cause to suspect me of being involved in a crime. To say it is okay because I give this information to Google anyway is a fallacious argument because I don't.

    I think this information needed to come out so we could have a public debate on this, without this being public how do you know your elected politicians really are representing your views? And you don't really have a choice in who's elected, you can only choose who the parties tell you you can choose (sadly independents rarely have a chance at the polls), but with this being public you can let your representative know your views, and if enough people share your views your representative might actually listen, but if how they represent you isn't open to scrutiny then they don't need to listen to you and they can do what they want rather than what is best for you. A democracy cannot function if the people you vote for can't be held accountable for their actions because their actions are kept secret.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using AC Forums mobile app
    GadgetGator likes this.
    07-10-2013 05:19 PM
  17. AustinTech's Avatar
    He is a huge hero. What he did and is doing is absolutely awesome. I admire his courage and thank him as a fellow American.

    Sent from my SCH-I605 using AC Forums mobile app
    07-10-2013 05:22 PM
  18. llamabreath's Avatar
    I only have location services on when I need it, it is off the rest of the time. My point was that am not consenting to share most of my private information. It is wrong for my government to spy on me without reasonable cause to suspect me of being involved in a crime. To say it is okay because I give this information to Google anyway is a fallacious argument because I don't.

    I think this information needed to come out so we could have a public debate on this, without this being public how do you know your elected politicians really are representing your views? And you don't really have a choice in who's elected, you can only choose who the parties tell you you can choose (sadly independents rarely have a chance at the polls), but with this being public you can let your representative know your views, and if enough people share your views your representative might actually listen, but if how they represent you isn't open to scrutiny then they don't need to listen to you and they can do what they want rather than what is best for you. A democracy cannot function if the people you vote for can't be held accountable for their actions because their actions are kept secret.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using AC Forums mobile app
    When's the last time you saw integrity in politics?

    07-10-2013 05:25 PM
  19. Aquila's Avatar
    Let us clarify: If you're in the US it's only probable that the NSA is collecting your information. In the US they ARE aggregating metadata, running speech analytics, etc. on flagged addresses/numbers/etc and keeping data for regression at a later time. If you're in any other country, it's guaranteed that the NSA is eyeball deep in it, and the extent of the data collection and analysis conducted on that data is much more in depth and intrusive. Participation in data aggregation and behavioral pattern analysis is not optional, there is no opt-in.

    I'm not saying I like this, but we should be aware of what reality is. Every company, every government, every service you use is collecting as much information as it can and storing it in the most beneficial way possible to them, hopefully within applicable local laws.
    msndrstood likes this.
    07-10-2013 05:28 PM
  20. Wiley_11's Avatar
    The original NSA whistle-blower interview.

    07-10-2013 07:27 PM
  21. GadgetGator's Avatar
    You HAVE to keep your mouth shut. Besides, the point is that he specifically went out to find this information. Which is much different than "OMG i can't believe this is happening". So, he went in with malice IMO.
    He couldn't possibly have went in to a specific job without suspecting there was good reason to. In other words, he already knew there was a problem and that spying was being done on people above and beyond the terrorist classification. I guess you would have just sat there and said nothing letting things go because you trust the nanny state and everyone in it to have nothing but good intentions. I do not share that view. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

    It's not your job to judge whether or not what's specifically going on is legal or needs to be spelled out to the public. You can be a "whistleblower" and not give out specific information that could put operations, and those performing those operations, in jeopardy.
    Ya know what "jeopardy" comes out of this I bet? Not a damn thing.

    We elect the people that make the decisions. Those people that are appointed are appointed by our elected officials. Part of the reason we elect them (at least it's SUPPOSED TO BE) is that they agree with what we agree with. Why would you vote for someone that doesn't share your views?
    But it's not always the person with your views that gets elected! In fact, with all the gerrymandering going on, it often is rigged against you depending on where you live.

    By extension, then, we agree that things need to be done to assure our security. These programs have been approved by Congress more than once, so they were in agreement that this needed to happen. I'm not arguing about what was or wasn't said in those briefings, but it's not hard to believe that they knew the extent to which the monitoring was being done.
    Are you kidding? There were congress people coming out and saying they did not know this was going on when Snowden gave his story. There were a select group of congress people who understood what was going on, but that certainly was not everyone and possibly not the person you voted for either.

    It's naive to think that we would be secure without these sorts of things going on. Anybody that says we don't need these programs to have the level of security that we desire from our government is a little short sited I think.
    And at what point does the country turn into a police state? Giving up all your freedom and all your information doesn't make you safer, it just creates another entity to be wary of. You always always ALWAYS have to remember that there are people in government and in the military who get drunk on power. I don't mean Presidents...I mean the people that stay around decade after decade. The ones that are really pulling the strings. The more power and tools you give them, the less freedom you will ultimately have. And at some point, all those bleak movie futures become real. Anything can be misused, no matter the good intentions that started it. It isn't an issue now, but it could very well become one. We are at that crossroads now. We could very well be the generation that people in the future look back on and say, why didn't you guys do anything to stop this? That huge data center being built in Utah should worry anyone. Governments denying a President of another country airspace clearance should be worrisome. Making his plane land and searching it should be worrisome. These are not the actions of a "free" country. They are the actions of something much more sinister. Can you really not see that? Can you really not see where this all leads? It's no place good.
    retsaw and sooner7 like this.
    07-11-2013 02:16 AM
  22. JHBThree's Avatar
    He couldn't possibly have went in to a specific job without suspecting there was good reason to. In other words, he already knew there was a problem and that spying was being done on people above and beyond the terrorist classification. I guess you would have just sat there and said nothing letting things go because you trust the nanny state and everyone in it to have nothing but good intentions. I do not share that view. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.
    Please do not conflate not supporting Snowden with supporting the NSA. They are two different issues.

    Also, you're supporting what kevin is saying. Sbowden isn't a whistleblower, he's an opportunist that took this job specifically to steal this information.


    Are you kidding? There were congress people coming out and saying they did not know this was going on when Snowden gave his story. There were a select group of congress people who understood what was going on, but that certainly was not everyone and possibly not the person you voted for either.
    That's actually not true. That 'select group' was the entire congress. They knew what it was. They voted for it. If any of them didn't know, its because they chose to skip out on the multiple briefings per year that were offered to them so they could be told what was occurring. As a matter of fact, after all of this broke the NSA offered a session to the entire senate to discuss this. Less than half of them showed up to it.


    And at what point does the country turn into a police state? Giving up all your freedom and all your information doesn't make you safer, it just creates another entity to be wary of. You always always ALWAYS have to remember that there are people in government and in the military who get drunk on power. I don't mean Presidents...I mean the people that stay around decade after decade. The ones that are really pulling the strings. The more power and tools you give them, the less freedom you will ultimately have. And at some point, all those bleak movie futures become real. Anything can be misused, no matter the good intentions that started it. It isn't an issue now, but it could very well become one. We are at that crossroads now. We could very well be the generation that people in the future look back on and say, why didn't you guys do anything to stop this? That huge data center being built in Utah should worry anyone. Governments denying a President of another country airspace clearance should be worrisome. Making his plane land and searching it should be worrisome. These are not the actions of a "free" country. They are the actions of something much more sinister. Can you really not see that? Can you really not see where this all leads? It's no place good.
    Puh-leaze. This type of rhetoric doesn't do anything helpful. All it does is whip up the FUD. We are still a free country. But when you violate the law and flee, you don't exactly have the luxury of some of those freedoms any more. Snowden is a fugitive.

    Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk 2
    msndrstood likes this.
    07-11-2013 04:16 AM
  23. sooner7's Avatar
    If you think our country is free, you must have a very different definition of the word. Nothing Gator said was even remotely sensationalized, we are just passionate. The little things that keep nicking away at our everyday freedoms and PRIVACY will eventually bring us a place very few of us would have imagined. I guarantee half of our readers flicked on their television, to be told that Snowden is a criminal and a huge spy.

    That's the problem. Any branch of government, especially one like the Agency is a breeding ground for power hungry people. Yet, a lot of folks act like the Government always act in our best interest. Well here's the proof to get ya'll from under that rock. Look around, and let the notion that thousands of people have access to know nearly everything about you.
    07-11-2013 07:48 AM
  24. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    He couldn't possibly have went in to a specific job without suspecting there was good reason to. In other words, he already knew there was a problem and that spying was being done on people above and beyond the terrorist classification. I guess you would have just sat there and said nothing letting things go because you trust the nanny state and everyone in it to have nothing but good intentions. I do not share that view. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.



    Ya know what "jeopardy" comes out of this I bet? Not a damn thing.



    But it's not always the person with your views that gets elected! In fact, with all the gerrymandering going on, it often is rigged against you depending on where you live.



    Are you kidding? There were congress people coming out and saying they did not know this was going on when Snowden gave his story. There were a select group of congress people who understood what was going on, but that certainly was not everyone and possibly not the person you voted for either.



    And at what point does the country turn into a police state? Giving up all your freedom and all your information doesn't make you safer, it just creates another entity to be wary of. You always always ALWAYS have to remember that there are people in government and in the military who get drunk on power. I don't mean Presidents...I mean the people that stay around decade after decade. The ones that are really pulling the strings. The more power and tools you give them, the less freedom you will ultimately have. And at some point, all those bleak movie futures become real. Anything can be misused, no matter the good intentions that started it. It isn't an issue now, but it could very well become one. We are at that crossroads now. We could very well be the generation that people in the future look back on and say, why didn't you guys do anything to stop this? That huge data center being built in Utah should worry anyone. Governments denying a President of another country airspace clearance should be worrisome. Making his plane land and searching it should be worrisome. These are not the actions of a "free" country. They are the actions of something much more sinister. Can you really not see that? Can you really not see where this all leads? It's no place good.
    How do you determine who may or may not be a terrorist (or doing terrorist type things) without information? How else would we gather that information? Would you like us to guess?

    I also like how you completely dismiss the fact that letting the enemy know some of our intelligence gathering tactics doesn't put operatives in danger.

    You're splitting hairs when talking about who's elected. The idea is that the person with the most votes wins, and should therefore be representative of the majorities viewpoint. If that ceases to be the case then someone else should be elected. If you want to get into the specifics of gerrymandering then start a new thread please (I don't disagree, but that's the system we currently live in).

    So I guess we also need to choose whether or not to believe a politician or an intelligence gathering service about who was briefed about what. Regardless of who you believe, it had to be voted for over and over.

    We're nowhere near a police state. Go back in time to Soviet Russia, or China now, or even Syria. Then come back and talk to me about police states. What does denial of airspace by another country, or his plane getting searched have to do with us being free at all? It's almost like you're saying that because we're free we don't have to abide by the laws of other countries, it respect their airspace. Is that the case?

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4 Beta
    msndrstood likes this.
    07-11-2013 08:07 AM
  25. retsaw's Avatar
    That's actually not true. That 'select group' was the entire congress. They knew what it was. They voted for it. If any of them didn't know, its because they chose to skip out on the multiple briefings per year that were offered to them so they could be told what was occurring. As a matter of fact, after all of this broke the NSA offered a session to the entire senate to discuss this. Less than half of them showed up to it.
    Does it matter if Congress had these intelligence briefings if the Director of National Intelligence just outright lies about what the NSA is doing?
    07-11-2013 10:23 AM
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