12-13-2015 01:42 PM
196 ... 34567 ...
tools
  1. ejmm22's Avatar
    hopefully he will accept the offer from Venezuela and he will be worst off in venezuela than in hell. Crime is so high, corruption is even worse than what he has uncovered.
    msndrstood likes this.
    07-11-2013 11:13 PM
  2. JHBThree's Avatar
    hopefully he will accept the offer from Venezuela and he will be worst off in venezuela than in hell. Crime is so high, corruption is even worse than what he has uncovered.
    If he goes to Venezuela his laptop will become their property and he will just disappear.

    Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk 2
    msndrstood and Aquila like this.
    07-11-2013 11:22 PM
  3. retsaw's Avatar
    So you're ok with profiling, but based on what criteria?
    That's really a different discussion. But I'll say I'm against wholesale spying on the public. I'm not qualified to say what the exact criteria should be, but there should be reasons to suspect them before spying on them.

    He could have went to the EFF, for example.
    Perhaps, but I'm not sure a well respected newspaper was a bad choice.
    07-12-2013 10:44 AM
  4. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    That's really a different discussion. But I'll say I'm against wholesale spying on the public. I'm not qualified to say what the exact criteria should be, but there should be reasons to suspect them before spying on them.

    Perhaps, but I'm not sure a well respected newspaper was a bad choice.
    He didn't do that either, though. Well, ok, he did, but he should have been more selective with what he released I think. Isn't the Guardian not even a US paper?

    By going to the EFF or similar organization proper proceedings could have been started in court. That's the point I'm trying to make.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD
    07-12-2013 10:47 AM
  5. retsaw's Avatar
    I liked everything about this post except for the last paragraph. What Snowden exposed is not surprising at all. He's just out to make a name for himself.

    Most of it may have been suspected, but unconfirmed. Although I didn't suspect that GCHQ was keeping all of the UK's internet traffic for three days, that information certainly wasn't known before Snowden leaked it.
    07-12-2013 10:54 AM
  6. retsaw's Avatar
    He didn't do that either, though. Well, ok, he did, but he should have been more selective with what he released I think. Isn't the Guardian not even a US paper?
    They recently launched US and Australian versions.

    By going to the EFF or similar organization proper proceedings could have been started in court. That's the point I'm trying to make.
    I expect if he did that it would have ended up in a secret court, and who knows what goes on in those and if it would have got a fair hearing.
    07-12-2013 11:04 AM
  7. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    They recently launched US and Australian versions.

    I expect if he did that it would have ended up in a secret court, and who knows what goes on in those and if it would have got a fair hearing.
    At that point he could've then done something different. I feel he skipped what would have been useful steps in this process.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD
    07-12-2013 11:07 AM
  8. GadgetGator's Avatar
    Again, you proved nothing with regards to airspace. Let's say Turkey denied us use of their airspace (it wouldn't be the first time). What does that really say about us other than they don't agree with what we're doing? If you agree with the Turkish government, then move there.
    What the hell? Move there? What does that have to do with ANYTHING I have raised?

    Nobody ever said that other countries are always going to agree with what we're doing. Would I want to know why they're going to search the plane? Yes. Of course I would. Why wouldn't I care? The bigger question is, why would our President go to a country that is that hostile towards what we're doing?
    What are you even talking about? I feel that you are missing the point completely. We had countries that believe in freedom deny and search another leaders plane. You would absolutely be up in arms if you were either:

    A) A citizen of Bolivia who just had their leader treated like a common criminal
    B) If our President has just been given the same treatment.

    You have yet to explain why this treatment of a foreign leader is okay. I suspect you think it is passable because it is not your leader. But if it were, again, I don't think you would be so nonchalant about it. But here, don't just take my word for it. See what is being talked about in the UN: IPS Denial of Airspace to Bolivian Leader Resonates at U.N. | Inter Press Service

    Here's some tidbits from that link:

    The Heads of State and their airplanes enjoy full immunity in accordance with international law,

    or this one The United States has again exposed itself as the worlds bully, as did the UK, when it threatened to extract Julian Assange (Wikileaks founder) from the Ecuador Embassy in London.

    So it's not just me thinking this. So the question to you (again), is why is this treatment of a foreign leader acceptable to you? It's certainly not the actions of a free society no matter what you think the definition of a Police State mentality is. Although your links did mention restriction of mobility being one of the indicators. Pretty sure that making a plane deviate off it's course is a restriction on freedom of movement.

    This part does deserve its own response. Does it matter how we did it in the old days? No. Here's why. If our enemies have more advanced ways of communicating than we do intercepting those communications then we lose. It's a simple truth. That's like saying "why do we need rifles when muskets worked just fine in the old days?" You have to stay AHEAD of the enemy, not on par, and not behind. There are many facets to intelligence gathering, one of which is cyber, and that can't be replaced with anything else. What can be done, though, is replacing some of the "boots on the ground" intelligence with some cyber stuff, satellites, and drones. It's a multi-faceted approach and thinking that we only need to do things one way, or can just exclude one of those techniques and still be as effective, is kind of missing the idea.
    More advanced ways of communicating? Are you serious? Let me know when Al-Qaeda gets it's own satellites launched into space. What we have here is a runaway military machine that will use any excuse it can to justify it's actions. When has the military EVER wanted to cut back on things? We already have the biggest military machine in the world. How big do you want to make it? You are being sold a bill of goods. You are being told to trade some security in one way for perceived security of a different kind. You're accepting a "trust us, we know what's best for you" mindset. That blind faith has never worked out too well throughout all of human history. And now you are apparently even accepting the forced deviation and searching of foreign leaders planes. I'll say it yet again for you....these are not the actions of a free country. Instead they are troubling signs. Why does this not disturb you more (or at all)??

    So we need members of government agencies who don't care to keep secrets of the state safe? That's ultimately committing treason. It'd be a whole different argument in this room if he was leaking information to terrorist affiliates. Everyone would be shouting for his head, then.
    But that's not what he has done, so why are we talking about that?
    07-12-2013 02:53 PM
  9. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    But that's not what he has done, so why are we talking about that?
    We won't be able to move forward until you accept that fact that what he did was against the law. I'm guessing you'll be unwilling to accept that, since ultimately that's the point of this thread.

    My point above moving to another country is this: If you like the way another country does it, then go there. Nobody is stopping you.

    The fact that people are in denial about is that these sorts of intelligence gathering operations are not going to stop. Cool, let's get rid of PRISM, or ECHELON. How many others are there? We'll NEVER KNOW THE ANSWER. The only real difference between present time and any time in the past is that information moves faster, and is disseminated in a much more efficient matter. We as a public have more access to knowledge than ever before. That's the difference between now and "back in the day".
    07-12-2013 03:05 PM
  10. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    @gadgetgator: Do you also feel that everything the UN does, tries to do, and wants us to do is in the best interest of the US at all times? Or should we selectively choose when/how/what to participate in as far as that goes? I'm just curious as to your views there. I feel the UN has it's good and bad, and sometimes it's not in our best interest to become in specific things. Overall, though, I think us belonging and participating in the UN is a positive thing. So we have to take the good with the bad, so to speak.
    07-12-2013 03:10 PM
  11. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    @gadgetgator: I don't see where the US had anything to with denial of airspace. Saying that we could somehow force a sovereign country to violate international law without proof is a huge accusation to assert. An excerpt from your link:

    The Bolivian presidential jet was denied airspace by several European countries, including Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, while it was returning from Moscow where Morales had attended a meeting in early July.
    07-12-2013 03:27 PM
  12. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    Sorry I keep making these all separate posts. I keep walking away to get work done, then having more thoughts on things, and I don't want to edit anything, in case it gets missed or someone things I'm editing my previous comments.

    My above excerpt did make me think about one thing. Most of the countries, I think, would have similar capabilities as us, and could theoretically have some type of program that does the same thing active as we speak. Maybe it was their way of showing people that they will take leaks of those programs very seriously, and will go to extraordinary measures to protect the secret existence of them.
    07-12-2013 03:35 PM
  13. nolittdroid's Avatar
    He got himself into quite a mess.

    โœŒ๐ŸŽ€๐Ÿ‘‘๐Ÿญ๐ŸŒž
    07-12-2013 04:03 PM
  14. cdmjlt369's Avatar
    The thing is we are talking about this guys ethics (while exposing unethical behavior)and what he did was to make everyone aware of what was going on. I think most of us knew about these programs but never really thought much about it much less discussed it.

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app
    kchannel9 likes this.
    07-12-2013 04:20 PM
  15. msndrstood's Avatar
    This has been a very exciting and thoughtful debate. I really have nothing much to add, I'm just enjoying the debate. Great job everyone!

    Carry on.

    Sent via Note II
    07-13-2013 11:32 AM
  16. GadgetGator's Avatar
    I didn't see a whole lot of answers to the questions I asked in my last post...just more questions to me. Which while I am happy to respond to, it would be nice to have the issues I brought up answered too. Anyways, to answer your questions...

    We won't be able to move forward until you accept that fact that what he did was against the law. I'm guessing you'll be unwilling to accept that, since ultimately that's the point of this thread.
    Not sure why this is even an issue or question asked to me. Of course what he did violated law. What is there to accept? Our human history and even this country itself has had examples of people who broke the law in order to make a difference. Surely you don't think that us declaring our Independence from Britain fell under the laws of Britain do you? No doubt there were people spying on the British army against the laws of the time. They were probably even labeled traitors. And yet here we are 237 years later, our own country.

    My point above moving to another country is this: If you like the way another country does it, then go there. Nobody is stopping you.
    That's a little disingenuous when you know that the country in question (that would be us) extends it's reach and it's spying into all those other countries as well. So should I build a rocket and live on another planet? How about changing the country's policies and procedures from within and not just let it run amok? There's an idea.

    @gadgetgator: Do you also feel that everything the UN does, tries to do, and wants us to do is in the best interest of the US at all times? Or should we selectively choose when/how/what to participate in as far as that goes? I'm just curious as to your views there. I feel the UN has it's good and bad, and sometimes it's not in our best interest to become in specific things. Overall, though, I think us belonging and participating in the UN is a positive thing. So we have to take the good with the bad, so to speak.
    No, in fact you and I are in exact agreement on that. Although I mostly consider the U.N. to be a rather anemic organization. It doesn't accomplish much. But any dialog is better then no dialog I suppose.

    @gadgetgator: I don't see where the US had anything to with denial of airspace. Saying that we could somehow force a sovereign country to violate international law without proof is a huge accusation to assert.
    So FOUR countries just randomly decide to deny airspace to a leader, and a FIFTH one searches his plane? Yeah, that doesn't look coordinated at all. Please. Even the state department refused to confirm or deny. Well, in politics if you don't deny, then that means you just confirmed. US admits contact with other countries over potential Snowden flights
    07-13-2013 03:28 PM
  17. Aquila's Avatar
    Snowden apparently has been nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize by a Swedish sociology professor. He said that this could help, "save the prize from disrepute incurred by the hasty and ill-conceived decision" to give the prize to President Obama in 2009.

    Despite the nomination, nearly every deadline for nominations has passed and the US has the ability to block any award, and possibly to prevent him from appearing on the list of finalists.
    07-15-2013 07:21 PM
  18. llamabreath's Avatar
    Snowden apparently has been nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize by a Swedish sociology professor. He said that this could help, "save the prize from disrepute incurred by the hasty and ill-conceived decision" to give the prize to President Obama in 2009.

    Despite the nomination, nearly every deadline for nominations has passed and the US has the ability to block any award, and possibly to prevent him from appearing on the list of finalists.
    lol

    07-15-2013 07:27 PM
  19. JHBThree's Avatar
    Snowden apparently has been nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize by a Swedish sociology professor. He said that this could help, "save the prize from disrepute incurred by the hasty and ill-conceived decision" to give the prize to President Obama in 2009.

    Despite the nomination, nearly every deadline for nominations has passed and the US has the ability to block any award, and possibly to prevent him from appearing on the list of finalists.
    Ha that's funny. Apparently the professor missed that Snowdens actions are leading to more discord and mistrust among nations than before he did what he did. Silly Swede.

    Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk 2
    Aquila likes this.
    07-15-2013 07:29 PM
  20. retsaw's Avatar
    Snowden apparently has been nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize by a Swedish sociology professor. He said that this could help, "save the prize from disrepute incurred by the hasty and ill-conceived decision" to give the prize to President Obama in 2009.

    Despite the nomination, nearly every deadline for nominations has passed and the US has the ability to block any award, and possibly to prevent him from appearing on the list of finalists.
    He's nominated for the 2014 award, and the deadline is February. How and why can the US block the award? This isn't mentioned on the Wikipedia page for the Nobel Peace Prize.
    07-15-2013 07:36 PM
  21. Aquila's Avatar
    He's nominated for the 2014 award, and the deadline is February. How and why can the US block the award? This isn't mentioned on the Wikipedia page for the Nobel Peace Prize.
    The article that I read was that he was nominated for the 2013 award by Stefan Svallfors but later says the nominee committee will review it for a nomination next year. 2013 is what he is pretty much ineligible for.

    I'm having a hard time finding the nomination procedures on the nobelprize.org site, but I remember articles last winter about the US vetoing the participation of US national, Bradley Manning in the Nobel Peace Prize process for the 2012 award. According to Salon, ' the head of the International Committee of the Russian State, Duma Aleksey Pushkov, who says that the US would not allow the prize to go to Snowden, tweeted, "Not in a million years will the United States allow Snowden to get the Peace Prize. But his nomination is significant. Many in the West see him as a champion of democracy." '
    07-15-2013 08:13 PM
  22. jerry12's Avatar
    If he'd done this in the 50's and 60's, there would be no debate on this issue. I'm not clear on why anyone would think he's a hero. He plotted against the government, he stole intelligence, he stole US property and probably gave the info to other countries. What makes him different than a hacker?

    Sent via Note II
    In the 50's & 60's our government was not spying on us. The government spyed on Russia , China , North Korea , Cuba & so on. Now with the Patriot Act the government is spying on Americans , the government wants to control us. It is against the Constitution the things that our government is doing to us.

    Sent from my SCH-R950 using AC Forums mobile app
    07-15-2013 08:57 PM
  23. retsaw's Avatar
    Wikipedia tells me that the winner of the Peace Prize is selected by a committee chosen by the Norwegian parliament. There is no reason the US should have any say in this, that isn't to say they won't exert political pressure in the background, but I don't think they have a right to veto it.

    Since it is well past the 2013 deadline I thought it would be unlikely the nominator tried to get him considered for 2013, but I looked it up and the nomination letter clearly says 2013. Perhaps the nominator recognises Snowden doesn't have much chance and is just doing it to get the story in the media.
    Aquila likes this.
    07-16-2013 03:50 AM
  24. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    In the 50's & 60's our government was not spying on us. The government spyed on Russia , China , North Korea , Cuba & so on. Now with the Patriot Act the government is spying on Americans , the government wants to control us. It is against the Constitution the things that our government is doing to us.

    Sent from my SCH-R950 using AC Forums mobile app
    And you can prove that they weren't? Or are you assuming that since you didn't know about it that it wasn't going on?

    Posted via Android Central App
    07-16-2013 02:43 PM
  25. Aquila's Avatar
    I can prove that they were... If it helps.

    Transmitted through spacetime.
    07-16-2013 05:42 PM
196 ... 34567 ...

Similar Threads

  1. Inrix or Waze
    By Mark Zagotti in forum General News & Discussion
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 07-12-2013, 06:41 PM
  2. Just CF rooted. How do I get stuff to go to SD card?
    By ncreptile in forum Samsung Galaxy S4
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 07-09-2013, 06:15 PM
  3. Anyone else not using an SD card?
    By droidntn in forum Samsung Galaxy S4
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 07-09-2013, 05:14 PM
  4. iPhone to Android: S4, One or Nexus 4?
    By niko_orsini in forum General News & Discussion
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 07-09-2013, 10:16 AM
  5. Not charging on car or laptop cables
    By jeffrok in forum Droid RAZR MAXX
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 07-08-2013, 11:29 PM
LINK TO POST COPIED TO CLIPBOARD