12-13-2015 02:42 PM
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  1. anon8126715's Avatar
    This administration are about as far from the spirit of 1776 as they could possibly get imo. Whether or not Snowden is a traitor I'm not really arguing, but the Orwellian antics of the government are unethical if not downright criminal. They're an insult and an affront to liberty.

    If there was ever a case for "defending against all enemies foreign or domestic" I certainly think domestic applies in the case of the last couple administrations.

    I'm not sure what's worse - their corruption or the people who lay down for it or even worse, condone it.
    Which administration do you think is worse though? I know that many people will judge based on what brand of koolaid they drink, but putting all politics aside, is the GWB administration worse than the Obama administration in this instance?

    I think they're neck and neck, while I give a slight edge to GWB. The reason I give it to him is that I think it takes a more sinister mind to put such an institution in place over just "taking over the controls". I don't think Obama should get a free pass for continuing some of the very programs he claimed he would cease in his campaign for the White House either. What you then have to wonder is did he intend on shutting these programs down but was given intelligence that made him change his mind, are there other forces at work that are preventing him from shutting down these programs (illegal forces at work, I might add since un-elected officials should NOT be doing the President's job IMO), or did he outright lie?
    12-21-2013 10:05 AM
  2. anon62607's Avatar
    " Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."
    quoting the Declaration of Independence, which was not adopted as a law but rather a statement of congress - before the constitution even existed. something can't be said to be legal under the declaration. it's legal (or not) under the constitution and under law empowered to be created under the constitution.
    12-21-2013 11:41 AM
  3. cdmjlt369's Avatar
    If an individual brings forth evidence that the government is involved in conduct unbecoming/illegal against its people, the government wants to label him a traitor. If the same individual were to bring said evidence against a company, he would be a hero and the company would be prosecuted. That's jacked up!

    Sent from my XT1060 using AC Forums mobile app
    Tall Mike 2145 likes this.
    12-22-2013 10:45 AM
  4. xchange's Avatar
    Which administration do you think is worse though? I know that many people will judge based on what brand of koolaid they drink, but putting all politics aside, is the GWB administration worse than the Obama administration in this instance?

    I think they're neck and neck, while I give a slight edge to GWB. The reason I give it to him is that I think it takes a more sinister mind to put such an institution in place over just "taking over the controls". I don't think Obama should get a free pass for continuing some of the very programs he claimed he would cease in his campaign for the White House either. What you then have to wonder is did he intend on shutting these programs down but was given intelligence that made him change his mind, are there other forces at work that are preventing him from shutting down these programs (illegal forces at work, I might add since un-elected officials should NOT be doing the President's job IMO), or did he outright lie?
    They're both the same administration so neither is worse. That administration being bank and oil cartels, and various other other old world money institutions that aren't democratically elected by anyone. The titles "democratic" "republican" and "party" are just the veneers they paste on themselves.
    Paisley and Aquila like this.
    12-24-2013 09:21 AM
  5. anon8126715's Avatar
    A federal judge ruled that the NSA operation which collects numbers from all our phones is legal. This comes one week after another federal judge reached the exact opposite conclusion.
    I wonder where this leaves us now.
    12-28-2013 10:19 AM
  6. llamabreath's Avatar
    I wonder where this leaves us now.
    Back to square one.



    I think signatures are stupid.
    12-28-2013 10:49 AM
  7. mrsmumbles's Avatar
    Something else. I'm glad the topic of the NSA finally reached mass consciousness. I'm not sure it would have without his disclosures but the choices he's making to flee to US enemies is kind of creepy and suspect. He'd be a hero if he'd stayed in the US after whistleblowing.

    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk 2
    kchannel9 likes this.
    12-28-2013 11:02 AM
  8. palandri's Avatar
    Something else. I'm glad the topic of the NSA finally reached mass consciousness. I'm not sure it would have without his disclosures but the choices he's making to flee to US enemies is kind of creepy and suspect. He'd be a hero if he'd stayed in the US after whistleblowing.

    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk 2
    He really couldn't stay in the states. They would throw him in jail next to Bradley Manning and throw away the key.
    kchannel9 likes this.
    12-28-2013 12:03 PM
  9. mrsmumbles's Avatar
    He really couldn't stay in the states. They would throw him jail next to Bradley Manning and throw away the key.
    I dunno, maybe not if there were a lot of public support behind him. I think there would have been if he'd stayed.

    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk 2
    12-28-2013 12:12 PM
  10. msndrstood's Avatar
    Something else. I'm glad the topic of the NSA finally reached mass consciousness. I'm not sure it would have without his disclosures but the choices he's making to flee to US enemies is kind of creepy and suspect. He'd be a hero if he'd stayed in the US after whistleblowing.

    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk 2
    That was my point a long time ago. A hero stands up and takes the consequences for his actions.

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    mrsmumbles likes this.
    12-28-2013 12:28 PM
  11. xchange's Avatar
    I wish I was as innocent about how the system works as you guys. If he had stayed he would have been silenced much too soon and had far less effective impact. To our misfortune.
    Your consequences would be a victory for those who would irresponsibily spy on citizens without checks and balances.
    kchannel9 and Garvin6600 like this.
    12-28-2013 03:33 PM
  12. Macktion's Avatar
    " Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, ..."
    While I like that you used the deceleration, I have always read it:

    "Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, ..."

    My interpretation was always that some powers are unjust, and no amount of consent can grant those. But I can see what you are getting at as well.

    Sent from my XT1034 using Tapatalk
    01-03-2014 01:24 PM
  13. NoYankees44's Avatar
    While I like that you used the deceleration, I have always read it:

    "Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, ..."

    My interpretation was always that some powers are unjust, and no amount of consent can grant those. But I can see what you are getting at as well.

    Sent from my XT1034 using Tapatalk
    Who determines what powers are just and unjust? We do. Morally right and wrong are determined by us. We decide what is acceptable and what is not. Right and wrong is 100% dictate-able. If it were not, that would imply that there is some sort of natural dictation for morals.

    All power that the government has was either consciously given to it by us, or we allowed it to be taken away. We determine everything about the government through either action or complacency.
    Tall Mike 2145 likes this.
    01-03-2014 02:15 PM
  14. Macktion's Avatar
    Who determines what powers are just and unjust? ...Morally right and wrong are determined by us. We decide what is acceptable and what is not.
    That depends very much. Are you a Locke or a Hobbes or (insert philosopher here)?
    Either way, most sides paint a set of naturally occurring rights, by virtue of your sentience. And the violation of those being unjust by definition. But, on the Hobbes side, you can give those up. On the Locke side, they are inalienable... I'm inclined to side with my reading, on this one, mostly because it fits better with the context of the text itself.
    (But I might be biased; I've always fancied Locke.)


    Sent from my XT1034 using Tapatalk
    01-03-2014 02:31 PM
  15. NoYankees44's Avatar
    That depends very much. Are you a Locke or a Hobbes or (insert philosopher here)?
    Either way, most sides paint a set of naturally occurring rights, by virtue of your sentience. And the violation of those being unjust by definition. But, on the Hobbes side, you can give those up. On the Locke side, they are inalienable... I'm inclined to side with my reading, on this one, mostly because it fits better with the context of the text itself.
    (But I might be biased; I've always fancied Locke.)


    Sent from my XT1034 using Tapatalk
    The point is SOMEONE decides. YOU have desided what is right and wrong based on your knowledge. In the same way, WE as a culture decide what morals are. WE decide that Locke was right or wrong.

    Right and Wrong are what we decide they are. No matter how we justify our decisions on what is right and wrong(you may justify yours by philosopher's writings), they are still decisions made by us.
    01-03-2014 02:44 PM
  16. Macktion's Avatar
    Right and Wrong are what we decide they are.
    That is one way to look at it.


    Sent from my XT1034 using Tapatalk
    01-03-2014 02:48 PM
  17. cdmjlt369's Avatar
    Staying would have made him a martyr, hero makes no reference to suffering the consequences.

    Sent from my XT1060 using AC Forums mobile app
    kchannel9 likes this.
    01-04-2014 05:57 AM
  18. Scott7217's Avatar
    He'd be a hero if he'd stayed in the US after whistleblowing.
    The topic of Edward Snowden came up during the Democratic debate:

    The New Yorker -- Hillary Clinton is Wrong About Edward Snowden (article link)

    Hillary Clinton believes that Snowden could have received protection as a whistleblower, but John Cassidy of The New Yorker says that the Whistleblower Protection Act of 1989 doesn't apply to intelligence agencies.
    kchannel9 likes this.
    10-14-2015 10:09 PM
  19. kchannel9's Avatar
    Scott7217 likes this.
    10-15-2015 03:34 AM
  20. unchartedarea's Avatar
    It's hardly Hillary Clinton's fault though. The irony barely works.
    But in any case, what is the US Government supposed to do? NOT revoking his passport?
    11-13-2015 03:22 AM
  21. Serial Fordicator's Avatar
    There is a pbs show called the united states of secrets. It's as good if not better than citizenfour
    12-13-2015 02:42 PM
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