11-15-2013 08:18 PM
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  1. llamabreath's Avatar
    Not only that, but crazy as it sounds (and i'm paraphrasing my Economics teacher from way back in 1989), poverty is necessary in order for a capitalist society to function.

    Sad, but true.

    07-21-2013 06:14 PM
  2. cdmjlt369's Avatar
    I understand people who actually need it. And they should get help. There should be conditions for getting assistance. Stricter guidlines for job searching. Enrollment in school for bettering yourself in order to get better work. Photo of person the card is issued to on the card. Some things can be done to help. I tend to side with L2R on this. By the time I was 27 I had my 3rd child. 6 months after his birth, their mother up and walked out and left me to take care of a 4 year old, 2 year old and 6 month old. I was only making $300 a week and daycare was $140 a week. I tried for assistance and they actually said I made too much money. Guess what? I made it. There were times when I had no cell phone, no cable and a cheap car but I took care of us with very little. As was stated earlier, when you are in the grocery story buying ramen noodles and hamburger helpers, then the person in front of you has 2 carts full of steaks, shrimp, and ribs and you see them getting in a $60, 000 escalade, It bothers you just a little. Sorry about the run on.
    Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app
    07-21-2013 06:25 PM
  3. Live2ride883's Avatar
    I understand people who actually need it. And they should get help. There should be conditions for getting assistance. Stricter guidlines for job searching. Enrollment in school for bettering yourself in order to get better work. Photo of person the card is issued to on the card. Some things can be done to help. I tend to side with L2R on this. By the time I was 27 I had my 3rd child. 6 months after his birth, their mother up and walked out and left me to take care of a 4 year old, 2 year old and 6 month old. I was only making $300 a week and daycare was $140 a week. I tried for assistance and they actually said I made too much money. Guess what? I made it. There were times when I had no cell phone, no cable and a cheap car but I took care of us with very little. As was stated earlier, when you are in the grocery story buying ramen noodles and hamburger helpers, then the person in front of you has 2 carts full of steaks, shrimp, and ribs and you see them getting in a $60, 000 escalade, It bothers you just a little. Sorry about the run on.
    Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app
    It would only bother me if they bought their groceries with a food stamp card.

    My church runs a food bank twice a month for people in situations like you were in, or others that have a need. We get 0 government assistance with the items, everything is purchased at local retailers, or donated by farmers and church members. The road leading back to the church is about 2 miles long and lined with houses along one side. It's not uncommon to have cars lined up the entire length of the road, some getting in line several hours before we open. What gets me is how many newer Mustangs, Camaro's and SUV's are in line to get what little bit we can give each family. If you drive a car like that you have no business in line at a food bank.

    If someone has a genuine need, I have no problem helping them out. It's the one's that abuse the program that I have issues with.
    cdmjlt369 likes this.
    07-21-2013 06:49 PM
  4. cdmjlt369's Avatar
    It would only bother me if they bought their groceries with a food stamp card.

    My church runs a food bank twice a month for people in situations like you were in, or others that have a need. We get 0 government assistance with the items, everything is purchased at local retailers, or donated by farmers and church members. The road leading back to the church is about 2 miles long and lined with houses along one side. It's not uncommon to have cars lined up the entire length of the road, some getting in line several hours before we open. What gets me is how many newer Mustangs, Camaro's and SUV's are in line to get what little bit we can give each family. If you drive a car like that you have no business in line at a food bank.

    If someone has a genuine need, I have no problem helping them out. It's the one's that abuse the program that I have issues with.
    Exactly.:thumbup:

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app
    07-21-2013 06:55 PM
  5. Fairclough's Avatar
    We do and our major companies are all oil and base were a good 80% is sold to offshore investors. The idea is to allow a increased birth rate as we have a dramatically aging population. As for saved expenditure at a federal level were actually spending considerately per capita compared to other nations like the us and states have their own reserve. My state of 2 million has a 3 billion dollar investment account, which is designed not to be touched till a rainy day.

    Posted via the mystical forest creatures that power this Nexus 4.
    msndrstood likes this.
    07-21-2013 08:15 PM
  6. msndrstood's Avatar
    I understand people who actually need it. And they should get help. There should be conditions for getting assistance. Stricter guidlines for job searching. Enrollment in school for bettering yourself in order to get better work. Photo of person the card is issued to on the card. Some things can be done to help. I tend to side with L2R on this. By the time I was 27 I had my 3rd child. 6 months after his birth, their mother up and walked out and left me to take care of a 4 year old, 2 year old and 6 month old. I was only making $300 a week and daycare was $140 a week. I tried for assistance and they actually said I made too much money. Guess what? I made it. There were times when I had no cell phone, no cable and a cheap car but I took care of us with very little. As was stated earlier, when you are in the grocery story buying ramen noodles and hamburger helpers, then the person in front of you has 2 carts full of steaks, shrimp, and ribs and you see them getting in a $60, 000 escalade, It bothers you just a little. Sorry about the run on.
    Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app
    But, how did you make it? If you only made $300 a week and daycare took half of your check, how did you pay rent, food, electric? I really am curious. Was this in the recent past or in the distant past?

    Did you have help from parents, church, anybody?

    Sent via Note II
    07-21-2013 08:47 PM
  7. badbrad17's Avatar
    Invade Canada and force all their hockey players to play for Team USA.
    We already got into a spat once in 1812 and we kicked your a$$. We'd rather not have to do it again. Plus. Who would you play in the Olympics if you weren't playing Canada? Sweden?

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    msndrstood and jdbii like this.
    07-21-2013 09:20 PM
  8. badbrad17's Avatar
    Well, back in the day, when people migrated to the US legally, the first thing that they had to do was learn to speak English. While the US is the melting pot of the world, we don't need people trying to speak 10 different languages. Let's eliminate the fragmentation.
    This was also true in Canada. Plus you also had to have a full time job before you could move your family into the country. I am all for multi cultural immigration, but people need to do their share and be able to adapt to the existing culture that is in place. This allows the rest of the existing country to flourish while bringing in more productive people from other cultures. The whole bring in one person with legitimate papers and 12 family members without any papers has to stop.

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    msndrstood likes this.
    07-21-2013 09:30 PM
  9. cdmjlt369's Avatar
    But, how did you make it? If you only made $300 a week and daycare took half of your check, how did you pay rent, food, electric? I really am curious. Was this in the recent past or in the distant past?

    Did you have help from parents, church, anybody?

    Sent via Note II
    Occasional help from my parents. Not monetary though. They were poor also. They would watch the kids on the weekend if I could find work on the side. Cutting grass or fixing things for people. I didn't do much of that. Just really tight with how I spent money. It wasn't easy.

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app
    07-21-2013 09:44 PM
  10. badbrad17's Avatar
    I think my immigration views are slightly skewed from the average because I was not born here and I had dual citizenship until I was 18 and I speak/read and/or write in 5 languages (poorly in 4 of them). Personally I'm a "the more the merrier" type of person when it comes to enhancing the culture, but our current paradigms of income and quality of life are completely broken for current course sustainability, so any meaningful conversation about how to include more people in the dream of freedom should also probably include logistics for increasing quality of life across the board, for them and current denizens.
    I think we have to look at immigration equality differently depending on a number of things. It has nothing to do with allowing the world to flourish and be multicultural etc. It has to be based on the same model that you would run a business. You would not sacrifice the success of your business in order to keep non productive employees on your staff. The goal should be to include anyone regardless of race, culture or religion as long as they are a beneficial part of the new system they are wanting to become part of.

    As soon as this person cannot contribute then the rest of the country has to look at the situation as charity. And I am all for charity! The only problem is that if we have more charity cases than contributing immigrants then the entire country falls apart. The freeloaders then become supported by the contributors. This not only eliminates the ability for the country to flourish but also eliminates the countries ability to be charitable when is needs to be.

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    07-21-2013 09:46 PM
  11. badbrad17's Avatar
    O
    Taking for granted that your assertion that we have a low birth rate in the U.S. is correct (although I seriously doubt it but I haven't checked)........ we don't need a higher birth rate. And we certainly do not need to promote a higher birth rate by giving tax incentives. There are very few people that decide to have children so they can get a tax break. People will procreate with or without a tax incentive.
    This may be true, the problem is that you create an environment that is less prone to contribute to the economy. If all the people with kids are poor and strapped then you reduce their ability to take advantage of opportunities when they arise. The book The Outliers talks a lot about this. You could also look at other cultures where there is no support for families and see depressed economic environments simply because the families are barely able to feed their children never mind look at paying for education, health care or condoms for that matter.

    This is the problem with the "flip a switch" mentality. We look at our economy and think that it is rich enough. If you can't afford a kid then don't have one. The problem is that getting pregnant doesn't allow you to choose after the fact. All of society suffers if we don't sustain growth. We may be able to carry on for a decade or 2 and not notice but in time we would be negatively impacted as a whole. IMO.

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    07-21-2013 09:53 PM
  12. badbrad17's Avatar
    abolish irs.....institute a flat tax....everyone pays something, fair is fair! never did figure out how its "fair" for a few to carry the load for everyone....

    reform food stamp program......only healthy foods are available under new program....

    repeal obamacare....if you have to pass the law to know whats in the law, that's your first clue its not going to work, and when one the the authors of the bill calls it a "train wreck" that's your second clue....

    ban racial labels.....can we all just be americans or even better, humans, and EVERYONE stop talking about the color of someones skin, it's whats beneath the skin, what we think and what our actions are that really matters....
    I've always liked the idea of a flat tax. If you buy more you pay more. The issue arises when they rich have waaaay more than the poor and are not even impacted by tax or other things that are the same for all peoole. For example: A speeding ticket to Donald Trump is nothing, yet to a person on social security or a single parent it could be the difference between eating or not. I think everything should be based on a scale of income. Not to destroy those who work hard and earn more but to make sure there is a difference in benefits and penalization based on income in order to equalize the benefit and risk. Maybe there could be a scale of 1-100. If Donald Trump gets a speeding ticket it's $12,000... For a poor person it's $30. The punishment is the same. Even tax could work the same. Yet there could still be corporate benefits for people willing to create businesses and produce jobs. The risk has to have a reward or else there is no incentive and you become a communist regime.

    This could be a completely stupid idea. Just some thoughts.

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    nolittdroid likes this.
    07-21-2013 10:12 PM
  13. msndrstood's Avatar
    Occasional help from my parents. Not monetary though. They were poor also. They would watch the kids on the weekend if I could find work on the side. Cutting grass or fixing things for people. I didn't do much of that. Just really tight with how I spent money. It wasn't easy.

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app
    I'm glad you worked through it. We went through it during a period in the 80's, my husband got laid off a month after our second child was born, during a raging recession.

    But here's my point...

    When assumptions are made about a specific group of people, e.g. food stamp recipients, the stereotyping kicks in. This society, in general, has become intolerant of a lot of people in a lot of groups, just about everyone who isn't 'just like me'.

    The outcry has been for the last few years, 'there are 47 million people in this country on food stamps'. Do you know how difficult it is to get food stamps and keep them? If you work any overtime, just a few hours, and it puts you over the threshold, just one week, you are cut off and have to reapply again. Maybe you'll get approved, maybe you won't. Depends on your state.

    Did you know that 40% of our military are on food stamps?

    Do you also know that 70% of Walmart employees receive food stamps or energy assistance from the government? They're working, but basic life is just too expensive. The nearext city to me is fairly inexpensive, but you are not going to find any apartments under $600, not including electric and gas.

    The bottom line is people need help at difficult times in their lives, they are already humiliated, why demonize them when they're already a low as they can go. People don't know what's going on in their life, their lifestyle, really nothing about them, other than their perception of them.

    What we need is more empathy to find solutions that are practical, easy to implement and a way to finance them. Which leads me back to my original premise about Wall Steet trades.

    Those were my deep thoughts for the day.


    Sent via Note II
    07-21-2013 10:36 PM
  14. Fairclough's Avatar
    I disagree. You need wealth faire over here there is always calls for more pay in it. My views are if your young and on it when you get a job you'll pay it back in taxes and if god forbid you lost your job tomorrow it will be there to assist you to keep you ticking over.

    Everyone talks about social fairness but its not always fair, jobs arent easy to come by. I know my brother lost his after 7 years, along with half the company and 7000 other engineers. There are only 8 vacancies in the whole country. That's 6992 engineers jobless and more out of university. I bet those people have a large mortgage to pay off, I am all for them to go onto wealth faire. They pay their tax's too and in their time of need its OK to claim.

    The average house price is 550k here, so if they go under they have half a million dollars to find. Its not like the US were you can default. If you go bank rupt when you eventually get some you have to pay the owing amount back. So I guess its better for them to be on wealthfair and be 100k out of pocket if prices slump.

    Posted via the mystical forest creatures that power this Nexus 4.
    msndrstood likes this.
    07-22-2013 12:08 AM
  15. Aquila's Avatar
    The only problem is that if we have more charity cases than contributing immigrants then the entire country falls apart. The freeloaders then become supported by the contributors. This not only eliminates the ability for the country to flourish but also eliminates the countries ability to be charitable when is needs to be.
    I'm not sure at the moment where to find the numbers, but I would hazard a guess that like so many things, the perception of the multitudes of freeloaders is overblown and that for every one of those, you would find 10-20 extremely hard workers who are just trying to do what is best for their family, etc. As a person who chose my ultimate citizenship, I will say that I often believe people who fight to become part of a team feel more affinity for and become more heavily invested into the team that they are a part of, than people who are born into it.
    msndrstood and badbrad17 like this.
    07-22-2013 02:35 AM
  16. llamabreath's Avatar
    We already got into a spat once in 1812 and we kicked your a$$. We'd rather not have to do it again. Plus. Who would you play in the Olympics if you weren't playing Canada? Sweden?

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    lol lol lol

    jdbii and badbrad17 like this.
    07-22-2013 04:41 AM
  17. Fairclough's Avatar
    I'm not sure at the moment where to find the numbers, but I would hazard a guess that like so many things, the perception of the multitudes of freeloaders is overblown and that for every one of those, you would find 10-20 extremely hard workers who are just trying to do what is best for their family, etc. As a person who chose my ultimate citizenship, I will say that I often believe people who fight to become part of a team feel more affinity for and become more heavily invested into the team that they are a part of, than people who are born into it.
    Second that. I view that immigrants are often a lot more harder working then born citizens. Why because they have to build everything new, a name etc while often born people view they should have first priority.

    Posted via the mystical forest creatures that power this Nexus 4.
    msndrstood and badbrad17 like this.
    07-22-2013 04:55 AM
  18. badbrad17's Avatar
    I'm not sure at the moment where to find the numbers, but I would hazard a guess that like so many things, the perception of the multitudes of freeloaders is overblown and that for every one of those, you would find 10-20 extremely hard workers who are just trying to do what is best for their family, etc. As a person who chose my ultimate citizenship, I will say that I often believe people who fight to become part of a team feel more affinity for and become more heavily invested into the team that they are a part of, than people who are born into it.
    And I would say that if that is the case then we have nothing to worry about. And the people immigrating should have no problem with a set of rules outlining how we can maintain success for anyone involved.

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    msndrstood likes this.
    07-22-2013 11:40 AM
  19. karsdroid's Avatar
    Am I the only one who views the wealthy should pay mor?

    E.g your first 20k isn't taxed next 20 at 5% next at 10 etc

    Posted via the mystical forest creatures that power this Nexus 4.
    No....flat tax ....everyone pays X%. Why is it "fair" to make someone wealthy pay more than anyone else just because they are successful? Many of the wealthy give to charitable causes and would continue to do so, and perhaps more if they could choose worthy causes instead of being forced to pay up to a government which clearly cannot manage money appropriately.

    Has anyone seen the movie Dave? I love the scene where Dave's accountant friend comes to the White House and is like, " man if I ran my business like this I'd be bankrupt"....
    jdbii likes this.
    07-22-2013 05:04 PM
  20. Fairclough's Avatar
    People donate to charity to save tax.
    Why should someone who has little money pay what they need to live on in tax? People on 100k pay packets should pick that slack up.

    Posted via the mystical forest creatures that power this Nexus 4.
    msndrstood likes this.
    07-22-2013 08:12 PM
  21. jdbii's Avatar
    Has anyone seen the movie Dave? I love the scene where Dave's accountant friend comes to the White House and is like, " man if I ran my business like this I'd be bankrupt"....
    Hilarious movie and that scene or sequence of scenes -- from arrival to the White House to when he left the White House -- was superb.
    karsdroid likes this.
    07-22-2013 08:56 PM
  22. badbrad17's Avatar
    People donate to charity to save tax.
    Why should someone who has little money pay what they need to live on in tax? People on 100k pay packets should pick that slack up.

    Posted via the mystical forest creatures that power this Nexus 4.
    Really? There are the select mega wealthy that may donate to charity to get a tax write off but the amount of the donation never equates to the amount donated. People give to charity to help charities. Anyone who does otherwise is losing money.

    Also people that make over 100k per year pay almost 50% in tax. The less you make the less you pay. So it is relative to some degree.

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    cdmjlt369 likes this.
    07-22-2013 09:07 PM
  23. karsdroid's Avatar
    People donate to charity to save tax.
    Why should someone who has little money pay what they need to live on in tax? People on 100k pay packets should pick that slack up.

    Posted via the mystical forest creatures that power this Nexus 4.
    I disagree.....all people should pay into the system, to know that they have a stake in how things are running. should those who are poor pay an undue amount? no! but everyone should have a responsibility and participation in the government. sure handing out free stuff to everyone in a country would be great, but how realistic is that. where does the money come from? stripping the wealth from the wealthy isn't enough to cover the bill. look at us in the US, the country is drowning in debt while participation in social programs is rising higher and higher. this is not sustainable. everyone needs to pony up and have "a horse in the race" so to speak. we need everyone in the US to rise up and demand that the government live within its means just like families do. clean up the wasteful spending of which there is way way too much. creating a lifestyle of dependence creates bondage to the system instead of self reliance. where has hard work and self respect gone?

    wow, i thought i was pretty jaded...........but no not everyone donates just for a tax right off.......... there are many of the wealthy who donate, start foundations, etc, and all while they are being vilified for being successful, and told they aren't paying their "fair share".
    cdmjlt369, Live2ride883 and FuzzyB like this.
    07-23-2013 01:06 AM
  24. Fairclough's Avatar
    Really? There are the select mega wealthy that may donate to charity to get a tax write off but the amount of the donation never equates to the amount donated. People give to charity to help charities. Anyone who does otherwise is losing money.

    Also people that make over 100k per year pay almost 50% in tax. The less you make the less you pay. So it is relative to some degree.

    Sent from my Nexus 4
    They don't pay 50%. Here how it works here.
    The first 18k you earn isn't taxed, the next let's say 32k is done at 10% the next 20k at 20% then over at 30%. I don't have the exact figures on me but if your earning 100K your not paying 30k in tax your paying 10% of 32k and 20% of 20k +30% of 30k.

    I view lower eco groups need their money the most.

    Posted via the mystical forest creatures that power this Nexus 4.
    msndrstood likes this.
    07-23-2013 05:28 AM
  25. msndrstood's Avatar
    Low income people pay taxes, on purchases, Fed, State and local taxes. Yes they usually get a refund on overpayment, just like you. If you got a refund, it means you paid more than your share. Would you deny their refund because they are lower income and you feel that aren't paying enough?

    When you bring home $240 a week from your minimum wage job at Walmart, and $50 in taxes have already been taken out, how much more should they pay?

    As opposed to someone making $1000 a week who has $180 taken out, who do you think is going to be hurting more at the end of the week? Hmm?

    Sent via Note II
    07-23-2013 08:29 AM
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