07-14-2014 07:46 AM
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  1. Live2ride883's Avatar
    He should be in jail! He took someone life so no excuses. If someone kill he should be in jail. He always has a option not to kill. Just shoot him in the legs but don't kill. Anyway stupid law if you can allow people to carry the guns. Cowboys

    Sent from my Galaxy S4 White - using Tapatalk
    So according to what you stated:

    if a wife is being beaten by her husband and she kills him in self defense she should go to jail.

    If a woman in being brutally raped by one or more men and she kills one or more in self defense she should go to jail?

    If a dad/mom comes home from work and finds someone molesting their young child (male or female), and that parent kills the molester they should go to jail?

    Now i understand that some may find my examples a bit extreme, and i do apologise for that so please correct me if I am wrong on your statement.
    07-14-2013 12:09 AM
  2. Aquila's Avatar
    So I see why entire world hate Americans. We are not welcome to any country. Because we are not respect others life.

    This is not a war zone it should be free country and freedom but I'm out of this. Sign out and no need to be here.

    Sent from my Galaxy S4 White - using Tapatalk
    I think you're misunderstanding what I am saying. I'm saying that it is inhumane and you can be prosecuted and/or sued for shooting someone with the intent to injure them. It might not be fair or whatever, but if you really believe that lethal force is justified, then you use lethal force. This isn't about war zones or anything like that. I suspect you do not have any firearms or other defensive training. That's a misconception that many people have, and I blame it on Hollywood.
    07-14-2013 12:11 AM
  3. speed13's Avatar
    So according to what you stated:

    if a wife is being beaten by her husband and she kills him in self defense she should go to jail.

    If a woman in being brutally raped by one or more men and she kills one or more in self defense she should go to jail?

    If a dad/mom comes home from work and finds someone molesting their young child (male or female), and that parent kills the molester they should go to jail?

    Now i understand that some may find my examples a bit extreme, and i do apologise for that so please correct me if I am wrong on your statement.
    Good luck to your mind.

    Sent from my Galaxy S4 White - using Tapatalk
    07-14-2013 12:11 AM
  4. speed13's Avatar
    I think you're misunderstanding what I am saying. I'm saying that it is inhumane and you can be prosecuted and/or sued for shooting someone with the intent to injure them. It might not be fair or whatever, but if you really believe that lethal force is justified, then you use lethal force. This isn't about war zones or anything like that. I suspect you do not have any firearms or other defensive training. That's a misconception that many people have, and I blame it on Hollywood.
    I have been I in war zone and I know what means to take someone's life. But guys looks like you playing lots of games. Good luck to all of you and God bless you!

    Sent from my Galaxy S4 White - using Tapatalk
    07-14-2013 12:14 AM
  5. Aquila's Avatar
    He's 17 and 6'0" tall correct? He's not the 11 or 12 year old "child" the media kept posting pictures of, correct?
    Legally he is a minor child. I don't care for what the media is doing/saying.
    07-14-2013 12:15 AM
  6. Live2ride883's Avatar
    Good luck to your mind.

    Sent from my Galaxy S4 White - using Tapatalk
    So if you found yourself in a situation where you believed your life was in danger, and the only outcome was either the criminal dies or you do how would you handle it, would you simply lay down and let him take your life?

    Please go back and read post 31 in this thread, it may help you understand the legal side of this verdict, and how sometimes taking another life is permitted.
    palandri likes this.
    07-14-2013 12:22 AM
  7. Aquila's Avatar
    Both US Military branches and the ROK Army that I trained with were all conspicuously absent any training to shoot people's legs. Once the decision to use lethal force is made, no one is questioning the validity of the target in a legal sense. I'd be shocked if there was a military anywhere in the world giving soldiers orders such as, "aim at their legs, chaps!"
    07-14-2013 12:25 AM
  8. Live2ride883's Avatar
    Legally he is a minor child. I don't care for what the media is doing/saying.
    Legally Mr. Martin was a minor, but IMO he wasn't a "child", he was killed just 11 days after his 17th birthday.

    Trayvon Martin Birthday: Teen Would Have Turned 18 Today
    palandri likes this.
    07-14-2013 12:26 AM
  9. anon(6174973)'s Avatar
    Criminals look for small light weight items that they can sell at a high price and quickly, one of the first things they look for is guns. Then all they have to do is watch your house to see when you leave.
    How much do guns sell for

    Sent from my HP Slate 7 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
    07-14-2013 12:27 AM
  10. Live2ride883's Avatar
    Both US Military branches and the ROK Army that I trained with were all conspicuously absent any training to shoot people's legs. Once the decision to use lethal force is made, no one is questioning the validity of the target in a legal sense. I'd be shocked if there was a military anywhere in the world giving soldiers orders such as, "aim at their legs, chaps!"
    If I am in a situation where I have to pull a gun out, I will be pulling the trigger unless the person stops what they are doing, and drops to the ground also I would never shoot to wound.
    palandri and Aquila like this.
    07-14-2013 12:30 AM
  11. jdbii's Avatar
    Now they will exert more pressure on DOJ to charge Mr. Zimmerman with violating Mr. martins civil rights. What I don't get is how Rev. Sharpton can state there will be what I can only assume is a wrongful death civil case against Mr. Zimmerman, isn't that the families decision? If the family informed him they would be persuing this should he not have phrased it that way?
    Don't think the Feds could charge for wrongful death because (I think) wrongful death are civil cases. A federal charge would also have to be a criminal matter so there would have to be some iteration of a criminal violation of civil rights, like a hate crime. There has to be a federal criminal statute on the books right now if they were to prosecute him in Federal Court. (Not sure how it works but I think more or less I am on laid out the jist of it).

    I think the DOJ will stay 100 miles away from this. There is just not enough evidence to even consider this as a hate crime. If I am wrong on this, and the DOJ takes this to Federal Court, in my opinion it would be an outrageous blunder. Now anybody who thinks I am defending Zimmerman I am not. I am not on his side in any way shape or form. I am just pointing out that in my opinion the Feds don't have a case, and if they prosecuted him they would be making the same mistake that the Florida AG did when they over-reached with a charger of murder II.
    07-14-2013 12:31 AM
  12. palandri's Avatar
    Legally he is a minor child. I don't care for what the media is doing/saying.
    There's a semantics issue here. Are you from the states? Normally when I hear the term, "Child" I am thinking of 12 and under.

    I do care what the media does or says, that's where we get the news. When I first heard about this incident, I saw pictures of a, "child" that was 11 or 12 years old, not a 17 year old teenager who was 6'0" tall.
    Live2ride883 likes this.
    07-14-2013 12:33 AM
  13. Live2ride883's Avatar
    How much do guns sell for

    Sent from my HP Slate 7 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
    Off the street I have no idea, I have never bought or sold any firearm illegally. But I have rifles I have paid almost 4,000 for each of them and that was before any factory "modifications", or anything extra I picked up at the gun shop like cases etc.

    I also have a couple of antique rifles that are valued at over 10,000. It honestly depends on the firearm, like anything else.
    07-14-2013 12:34 AM
  14. Aquila's Avatar
    Legally Mr. Martin was a minor, but IMO he wasn't a "child", he was killed just 11 days after his 17th birthday.

    Trayvon Martin Birthday: Teen Would Have Turned 18 Today
    We can invent a new term or just call him a person, or whatever. I'm less concerned with the age of the deceased than the legal quandary.

    It's obvious that if Zimmerman's version of events is accurate then he is not guilty of a crime. He's just stupid... which isn't illegal most of the time, especially in Florida. The only issue I have is that I don't believe the defense proved his version of events. I'm not negating self defense, only the defendant's claim to zero culpability in the progression of events that provoked the physical altercation... and that I'm not even really questioning because there is no evidence he's lying, there just doesn't seem to have been any emphasis on the requirements for him to overcome in order to use that as a justification. If you are attacked, you have a right to defend yourself. You have a right to defend your family, property, neighbors, etc. That's fairly absolute.

    The question is, was he attacked or did he initiate it or was it mutually instigated in a verbal encounter that was not disclosed? The fact that these are questions, should mean we're still in trial... not that we said, "prosecution didn't prove he is guilty", because as I've tried to explain, they had little to no responsibility to prove anything because of the defense chosen. That's actually pretty much all I'm hung up on.

    That and someone trying to tell me about shooting people in the legs in a war zone. That was annoying. That's just not what actual war looks like, and Florida is not a war zone at any rate, so we're really only talking about civilian self defense.
    07-14-2013 12:36 AM
  15. Live2ride883's Avatar
    Don't think the Feds could charge for wrongful death because (I think) wrongful death are civil cases. A federal charge would also have to be a criminal matter so there would have to be some iteration of a criminal violation of civil rights, like a hate crime. There has to be a federal criminal statute on the books right now if they were to prosecute him in Federal Court. (Not sure how it works but I think more or less I am on laid out the jist of it).

    I think the DOJ will stay 100 miles away from this. There is just not enough evidence to even consider this as a hate crime. If I am wrong on this, and the DOJ takes this to Federal Court, in my opinion it would be an outrageous blunder. Now anybody who thinks I am defending Zimmerman I am not. I am not on his side in any way shape or form. I am just pointing out that in my opinion the Feds don't have a case, and if they prosecuted him they would be making the same mistake that the Florida AG did when they over-reached with a charger of murder II.
    Fed's can charge for civil rights violations, only family can sue for wrongful death. Which is what I stated in my post.
    palandri and Aquila like this.
    07-14-2013 12:37 AM
  16. Aquila's Avatar
    If I am in a situation where I have to pull a gun out, I will be pulling the trigger unless the person stops what they are doing, and drops to the ground also I would never shoot to wound.
    That's exactly correct. You don't draw it unless necessary, and if it is necessary, then you do it correctly. It's not a game or a movie, you don't use a tag line.
    07-14-2013 12:39 AM
  17. Aquila's Avatar
    There's a semantics issue here. Are you from the states? Normally when I hear the term, "Child" I am thinking of 12 and under.

    I do care what the media does or says, that's where we get the news. When I first heard about this incident, I saw pictures of a, "child" that was 11 or 12 years old, not a 17 year old teenager who was 6'0" tall.
    Yes, I translate it to minor though so different meaning, same word. We can agree on, Martin or the deceased, probably.
    I don't watch the news much at all, but yes it is incredibly wrong to mislead the public for ratings or sensationalism or to incite a propaganda driven divide in the country. That's why I don't watch the news.
    07-14-2013 12:41 AM
  18. jdbii's Avatar
    The jury disagrees, but I'm not sure if it's because they thought the prosecution had to prove guilt or if they thought the defense did prove justification.
    Well we will hear from the jury in the coming days, but in my opinion the jury probably sided with the defense on both of these points. Now I don't really know myself, but I have to say that I think you are overstating the burden the defense has regarding affirmative defense when it comes to self defense. I don't think it is much of a burden at all and I think it is only a reasonable person belief. I certainly don't think the defense is under any burden to prove anything during a trial. In the press conference after the verdict, the Florida AG made a statement and took Q and A's and she barely mentioned affirmative defense other than going out of her way to point out that self-defense, the right to use defend oneself with lethal force, as well as affirmative defense, are all very legal under the law. It was almost like she was a defense attorney when she was making those points.
    07-14-2013 12:42 AM
  19. Live2ride883's Avatar
    I do not wish to derail this thread, but in following the natural course of the conversation. Now that the verdict is in does anyone think there will be rioting, etc?
    07-14-2013 12:43 AM
  20. JHBThree's Avatar
    Ok I get it. If someone looking toward you grab the gun and just kill him who care about him. Nice really nice.

    Sent from my Galaxy S4 White - using Tapatalk
    Please try to not get emotional. That is how these threads fall apart.

    What I was referring to is the fact that the gun was fired during a scuffle, and it would have been impossible for Zimmerman to aim for Martin's legs or other appendages.
    07-14-2013 12:44 AM
  21. anon(6174973)'s Avatar
    Off the street I have no idea, I have never bought or sold any firearm illegally. But I have rifles I have paid almost 4,000 for each of them and that was before any factory "modifications", or anything extra I picked up at the gun shop like cases etc.

    I also have a couple of antique rifles that are valued at over 10,000. It honestly depends on the firearm, like anything else.
    That's quite a fortune.

    Sent from my HP Slate 7 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
    07-14-2013 12:44 AM
  22. Kilroy13's Avatar
    If he was a "child" he should have been at home! I wasn't allowed to wander around when I was a child! Bad parenting is what allowed this!

    Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk 2
    07-14-2013 12:45 AM
  23. Aquila's Avatar
    . In the press conference after the verdict, the Florida AG made a statement and took Q and A's and she barely mentioned affirmative defense other than going out of her way to point out that self-defense, the right to use defend oneself with lethal force, as well as affirmative defense, are all very legal under the law. It was almost like she was a defense attorney when she was making those points.
    That's kinda where I was thinking aloud earlier... I think they could have pressed the issue and didn't. It's somewhat interesting, because the shooting is not the crime in and of itself (although that's what people focus on, because that's the direct cause of a young man's death) in this case, if there is a crime... if there is, it's negligence in the events that led to the fight. If the jury believes Zimmerman free from blame, then he is not guilty of murder at all, but that's the same thing as saying that the defense proved that defense was needed and justified.
    07-14-2013 12:46 AM
  24. jdbii's Avatar
    I don't think there will be rioting. If so, it would have already started tonight.
    07-14-2013 12:47 AM
  25. Aquila's Avatar
    I do not wish to derail this thread, but in following the natural course of the conversation. Now that the verdict is in does anyone think there will be rioting, etc?
    I hope not, but I imagine there are some pretty emotional reactions. It's hard not to be polarized between wanting to show support for the victim and their family and wanting to ensure that legal justice remains intact. The defendant was tried, and the public liking it is not a condition of the verdict. In our country when the court determines you're free to go, that should be the end of it other than in debates about the decision. I certainly hope there are no vigilante actions taken against the defendant, officers of the court or jurors, etc. and that the demonstrations remain peaceful gatherings to show solidarity rather than anger.
    palandri and Live2ride883 like this.
    07-14-2013 12:53 AM
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