07-14-2014 07:46 AM
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  1. monsieurms's Avatar
    Anyone trying to decide about the trial by reading newspapers---bound to be deceived. Even when balanced, the press is rarely thorough enough or focuses enough on the right things to give you a feel for the actual trial.

    That said, from listening to what was reported, it seemed to me that it would have been very difficult if not impossible for a jury correctly applying the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard, to convict him of murder. When the Defense atty argued that the prosecution's case was filled with "might have happened this way" and "probably happened that way," that sounded exactly right. If the jury agreed, there had to be a not guilty because they just didn't have a clear idea of what happened. You can't convict someone of any crime, let alone murder, on a guess.

    The lesser charge of manslaughter seemed like an invite to compromise. I thought when they were permitted to think about the manslaughter charge that would be the compromise and he would be convicted on that. Overall, I thought manslaughter was likely the result, but even that was close under the evidence, and from what I hear, Zimmerman's expert witness had a powerful impact.

    Moral guilt is a different matter. There is not much doubt Zimmerman's stupidity provoked this and brought on a confrontation unnecessarily with an unarmed kid. And I think race was a reason for Zimmerman's actions on some level. It was also Zimmerman's control freak attitude and willingness to disregard police advice that led to the subsequent chain of events. If you were being stalked by the neighborhood by this guy, might YOU turn around, curse him out and toss a punch? Zimmerman has a history of violence, too, which I suspect the jury did NOT know. All of this occurred because of Zimmerman's stupidity and aggression. But that doesn't necessarily make it a criminal offense. The manslaughter call was a closer one, and really hard to judge based on newspaper reports, but not likely to happen if the case was filled with "coulda beens." I don't see that the prosecution made a case for murder.
    07-14-2013 06:40 AM
  2. llamabreath's Avatar
    Sitting here, patiently waiting for outrage, protests etc...

    http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?sec...cal&id=9171520

    http://www.mysuncoast.com/news/manat...a0d3dbc16.html


    What? Nothing?

    There are dozens, probably hundreds more links that I can post just like these.

    But because these incidents are regular incidents in "bad" neighborhoods... nothing to be outraged about. Black on black crime? Perfectly normal.

    Btw -
    This doesn't necessarily mean that I agree with the verdict, my opinion is irrelevant. What would be more meaningful, would be the same outrage you see now, forwarded to black children killing black children on a DAILY basis, in order to "keep it real".

    07-14-2013 09:23 AM
  3. gollum18's Avatar
    I've been watching this since the beginning. So I want to ask you guys. Why had this case gotten so much attention, and why is everyone so enamored by it? Is it a race issue or something? Or is there something else going on altogether?

    I just don't see how this is any different than any other murder that's happened in the past 10 years.

    Sprint GS3 Running TN's Msg and Chubbs
    07-14-2013 10:38 AM
  4. ab304945's Avatar
    It only an outrage because the guy killed was black. If it was a black guy killing a black guy, or black guy Killing a white guy. There wouldn't be an outrage

    Posted via Android Central App
    Live2ride883 likes this.
    07-14-2013 12:21 PM
  5. cdmjlt369's Avatar
    This is terrible that this happened. Both parties could have done things different. As far as why the screaming stopped when the gun shot went off. If it was Martin thats obvious. If Zimmerman was screaming he would have stopped because he got relief from the (alleged)assault. My opinion.

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app
    07-14-2013 12:32 PM
  6. jdbii's Avatar
    For that matter, feel free to answer any of the questions I raised in my post earlier (Page 2 post #43) which no Zimmerman defender has bothered to answer or explain. Just like the defense didn't.
    Within the context of the criminal trial the defense (nor any Zimmerman defenders as you phrased it) didn't have to answer those questions. It was the prosecutions job to answer those questions and to do so beyond a reasonable doubt. The prosecution really dropped the ball. In the press conference afterwards the lead trial prosecutor was bragging how he had tried 80 murder trials and only lost 1, but he came across as awfully arrogant and the state should have never handed the case to him. In that press conference the Florida AG, the woman, sounded 150 percent more clear and competent than the trial prosecutor and she brought up all sorts of points in a clear and concise manner that I think her prosecutors failed to convey during the trial. She should have tried the case.

    Edit: Wanted to add, in that press conference she raised all or many of those points you raised your post.
    07-14-2013 12:58 PM
  7. pappy53's Avatar
    I don't understand why people are saying that Martin was a child, other than the legal definition. He was at least 6 ft. tall, and had training in MMA. Zimmerman was not "twice his size", as someone posted earlier. Legally, Zimmerman had every right to do what he did, but it is terrible that someone lost their life. I have not seen any evidence of racial profiling by Zimmerman, as he never even mentioned Martin's race when he called the police. But Martin did some racial slurring, with his referral to Zimmerman as a "creepy-a-- cracker" in the conversation with the girl on the phone.
    palandri and Live2ride883 like this.
    07-14-2013 01:27 PM
  8. AustinTech's Avatar
    I really don't understand why people are getting all worked up this case. This kind of thing is pretty common.

    Nobody has a clue what happened on the night in question. Remember that. Whatever opinion you hear is 100% based on very limited information, and that includes your own.

    Personally I can understand both men's positions. Martin being creeped out by a follower and Zimmerman thinking Martin was going to beat him to death. The man with the gun won.

    Sent from my SCH-I605 using AC Forums mobile app
    07-14-2013 01:37 PM
  9. jdbii's Avatar
    I don't understand why people are saying that Martin was a child, other than the legal definition.
    You answered your own question. At 17 years old he was a legally a minor, therefore a child. It would be more appropriate to state "legally he was a child" but if one is emphasizing the difference in age and the fact one was considerably younger and one an adult you might say "child." I think emphasizing his youth is important since minors are not held to the same standards as adults under the law.

    I have not seen any evidence of racial profiling by Zimmerman, as he never even mentioned Martin's race when he called the police.
    Did the prosecution ever say or argue that Zimmerman "racially profiled" Trayvon Martin. They said the term "profile" quite a bit, but I'm drawing a blank as to whether or not they were using the words "racially profiled," or was the meaning implicit? I guess I heard it so much on TV by commentators that I filtered it out and I can't recall what exact words the prosecutors used during the trial.
    07-14-2013 01:44 PM
  10. pappy53's Avatar
    Did the prosecution ever say or argue that Zimmerman "racially profiled" Trayvon Martin. They said the term "profile" quite a bit, but I'm drawing a blank as to whether or not they were using the words "racially profiled," or was the meaning implicit? I guess I heard it so much on TV by commentators that I filtered it out and I can't recall what exact words the prosecutors used during the trial.
    I am going by the the opinion stated by Jennifer on here a couple of times.
    jdbii likes this.
    07-14-2013 01:48 PM
  11. Bratigan's Avatar
    I am glad the verdict played out the way it did. There was no case for murder here. The reasonable doubt necessary was always present.
    The prosecution withheld evidence, the DOJ obstructed justice by injecting itself in the case, the judge also screwed up by asking Zimmerman
    if he wanted to testify before the defense closed out its arguments. The media constantly showed very young pictures of Martin that were not
    representative of the 180 pound 6'2" 17 year old and like all 17 year old Marines he was not a child. Sometimes people make bad choices, Martin
    made a really bad choice by jumping Zimmerman, near Zimmermans vehicle, not farther away, blowing holes in the Zimmerman pursuit theory.
    Zimmerman was not outside the law at all. He was actually doing his job as a neighborhood watch person, legally armed just in the event something really
    stupid would happen where he would need to defend himself. I have been around for a very long time and I really feel for some of you people because your lives
    will always take a weird trail or something will happen that you are not prepared for. I have made it a goal in this life to always be prepared and to expect the unexpected,
    to train in many areas so as to be proficient in how to handle myself. If a Martin character attacked me he would fair no better as I would have successfully defended
    myself. The perp would have made a bad choice in this life just as Martin did. Ask yourself if you would defend yourself or for that matter anyone else.
    Live2ride883 and retsaw like this.
    07-14-2013 03:12 PM
  12. GadgetGator's Avatar
    Maybe the screaming stopped because a gun just went off? No one can answer it, so its not even worth asking. You'd sooner get an answer to the meaning of life than you'd get an answer to that question backed up with evidence.
    Not worth asking? It's the heart of the case!! If I am in a fight with someone, and I am the one yelling for help, even after shooting them I am still going to be yelling for help. That person still might be alive, still might be coming after me or at the very least will now need medical attention. You don't just stop yelling help because you pulled a trigger. Help is still needed. Conversely, if it was Trayvon screaming for help, well, it's clear why the calls for help would stop immediately after he was shot through the heart. He was dead.

    Similarly, why SHOULDN'T we believe that Zimmerman's side of the story is true? There isn't any evidence that it isn't. If Martin could tell his side of the story, the truth would probably end up somewhere in the middle.
    You just answered your own question. The truth lies in the middle. So that is why no one should take Zimmerman's story as 100% factual just like people wouldn't take Martin's story to be 100% factual were he able to actually tell it. But in this situation, it seems like people want to defer to the only guy living....the guy that stands to benefit. I question that reasoning greatly. People shouldn't defer to someone because they are the only guy left standing. Especially since there are inconsistencies in his story.

    Also, that 17 year old kid was as big as most full grown men, so that argument doesn't hold water.
    Who's talking about size? You are addressing an argument that I never made while ignoring the one that I did make. Unless you all of a sudden feel that a 17 year old possesses the same maturity as a 28 year old does. Given the age laws on drinking and voting, I'm going to say that simply isn't the case and that society agrees with me on that.

    Please don't make this personal. The conversation has been pretty level headed so far, and we shouldn't go down that road.
    Ah okay...wishing that these things does not happen to someone else is now personal. Wow. For the record, I hope that this doesn't happen to ANYONE else. On the PLANET. Is that less personal for you?
    07-14-2013 03:39 PM
  13. GadgetGator's Avatar
    It only an outrage because the guy killed was black. If it was a black guy killing a black guy, or black guy Killing a white guy. There wouldn't be an outrage
    I agree and disagree with this statement. I agree that if it were a black on black crime, or a white on white, or an asian on asian we probably wouldn't even know about this case. But I do think if it was a black guy killing a white guy there would have been some outrage too. In fact, I think the black guy would have been presumed guilty from the start. Maybe even arrested on the spot. That did not happen with Zimmerman.
    07-14-2013 03:52 PM
  14. llamabreath's Avatar
    EDIT, nevermind, not in the mood for this.

    msndrstood and Aquila like this.
    07-14-2013 04:12 PM
  15. Mooncatt's Avatar
    You answered your own question. At 17 years old he was a legally a minor, therefore a child. It would be more appropriate to state "legally he was a child" but if one is emphasizing the difference in age and the fact one was considerably younger and one an adult you might say "child." I think emphasizing his youth is important since minors are not held to the same standards as adults under the law.
    It's not as if on your 18th birthday some maturity switch is flipped and you now think as a rational adult. Some mature earlier and later, and in a lot of cases you find more and more that minors are actually tried as adults. Had the ages been reversed, I would expect a 17 yo to be tried as an adult in this case. I also believe that labeling someone like Treyvon as a kid or child is not much more than a sympathy ploy. It gives an impression that a 17 yo is on the same level as a 7 yo, which obviously isn't the case. Yet when people describe Treyvon as a kid to someone not familiar with the case, that's the initial impression it gives and already has them forming opinions before knowing anything about it. There is such a large range of mental and physical developments from birth to adulthood that a term that more accurately defines his stature should be used, if not his actual age. Young adult, late teen, etc.
    07-14-2013 05:41 PM
  16. Kilroy13's Avatar
    I am glad the verdict played out the way it did. There was no case for murder here. The reasonable doubt necessary was always present.
    The prosecution withheld evidence, the DOJ obstructed justice by injecting itself in the case, the judge also screwed up by asking Zimmerman
    if he wanted to testify before the defense closed out its arguments. The media constantly showed very young pictures of Martin that were not
    representative of the 180 pound 6'2" 17 year old and like all 17 year old Marines he was not a child. Sometimes people make bad choices, Martin
    made a really bad choice by jumping Zimmerman, near Zimmermans vehicle, not farther away, blowing holes in the Zimmerman pursuit theory.
    Zimmerman was not outside the law at all. He was actually doing his job as a neighborhood watch person, legally armed just in the event something really
    stupid would happen where he would need to defend himself. I have been around for a very long time and I really feel for some of you people because your lives
    will always take a weird trail or something will happen that you are not prepared for. I have made it a goal in this life to always be prepared and to expect the unexpected,
    to train in many areas so as to be proficient in how to handle myself. If a Martin character attacked me he would fair no better as I would have successfully defended
    myself. The perp would have made a bad choice in this life just as Martin did. Ask yourself if you would defend yourself or for that matter anyone else.
    +1. I love folks with common sense!

    Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk 2
    Live2ride883 and Bratigan like this.
    07-14-2013 05:55 PM
  17. Live2ride883's Avatar

    Who's talking about size? You are addressing an argument that I never made while ignoring the one that I did make. Unless you all of a sudden feel that a 17 year old possesses the same maturity as a 28 year old does. Given the age laws on drinking and voting, I'm going to say that simply isn't the case and that society agrees with me on that.
    Since you are bringing maturity levels at specific ages into this discussion. How is it possible that a 13-15 year old girl is mature enough to have an abortion without parental consent.

    Using the same standard as the laws that govern drinking, and voting.
    07-14-2013 06:09 PM
  18. Jennifer Stough's Avatar
    It only an outrage because the guy killed was black. If it was a black guy killing a black guy, or black guy Killing a white guy. There wouldn't be an outrage

    Posted via Android Central App
    No, I believe the outrage can also stem from a grown man murdering a child.

    Sent from my HTC6435LVW using AC Forums mobile app
    DS1331 likes this.
    07-14-2013 08:49 PM
  19. jdpj2008's Avatar
    Interesting that peyote are trying to draw a distinction between what is legally a child while going out of their way to point out all the technically legal aspects such as burden of proof, and Florida's stand your ground and self defense laws. I actually have been struggling with this verdict all day. The Florida law is actually written such that Zimmerman should have gotten off since the aggressor statue basically says even if you are the aggressor if at any time you feel your life is in danger you can use dealt force. The problem with the verdict is that most of us know the law doesn't apply equally to everyone and in a reverse situation it would have been assumed that trayvon did not fear for his life and simply wanted to shoot Zimmerman and he probably would be convicted. As one poster stated what about the woman who died warning shots? Of course then sometone stated we don't know the whole story about that woman to cast doubt as if we know the whole story in this case. You may decide if the right verdict was reached based strictly on the merits of the case but if we pretend that race plays no part in our perception of each other we are filling ourselves. Just as nationality and gender also play a part. To what extent varies for each person and the degree to which we can spray l spare l separate those thoughts from our decision various also but to say it was not a factor is either ignorant or disingenuous.

    sent from my soon to be replaced HTC Rezound
    DS1331 likes this.
    07-14-2013 09:24 PM
  20. jdpj2008's Avatar
    sent from my soon to be replaced HTC Rezound
    07-14-2013 09:26 PM
  21. jdpj2008's Avatar
    Probably wouldn't have been nearly as large if Zimmerman had been arrested at first and the same verdict was reached. The original notoriety of the case stemmed from a child being shot after waking home from a store and the suspect after recounting the events with very little corroboration was set free.

    sent from my soon to be replaced HTC Rezound
    07-14-2013 09:30 PM
  22. jdpj2008's Avatar
    Typically those people are arrested first and the justice system sorts it out later. That didn't happen in this case.

    sent from my soon to be replaced HTC Rezound
    07-14-2013 09:31 PM
  23. jdpj2008's Avatar
    It only an outrage because the guy killed was black. If it was a black guy killing a black guy, or black guy Killing a white guy. There wouldn't be an outrage

    Posted via Android Central App

    Typically those people are arrested first and the justice system sorts it out later. That didn't happen in this case.

    sent from my soon to be replaced HTC Rezound
    07-14-2013 09:34 PM
  24. DS1331's Avatar
    +1. I love folks with common sense!

    Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk 2
    Lol wow America

    Sent from my HTC One using AC Forums mobile app
    07-14-2013 09:56 PM
  25. gollum18's Avatar
    No, I believe the outrage can also stem from a grown man murdering a child.

    Sent from my HTC6435LVW using AC Forums mobile app
    That child happened to be a 17 year old (almost 18), 6ft, amateur mma fighter. Zimmerman was rather small compared to him.

    It's not like he was an eleven year old who had no preconceived notion of rational thought, this was a fully grown man. If Trayvon truly thought his life was in danger he would have walked the other way.

    Also for those of you who say this is race related, it is to a point. Mass media would say zimmerman shot him for racial reasons, yet when he called the police he made no racial slurs or comments. To the contrary, when Trayvon called his girlfriend he said "creepy a** cracker".

    If anything this case could be seen as reverse discrimination and racial profiling against Zimmerman.

    Sprint GS3 Running TN's Msg and Chubbs
    07-14-2013 10:08 PM
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