07-14-2014 07:46 AM
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  1. GadgetGator's Avatar
    Since you are bringing maturity levels at specific ages into this discussion. How is it possible that a 13-15 year old girl is mature enough to have an abortion without parental consent.

    Using the same standard as the laws that govern drinking, and voting.
    Please don't derail this topic into another hot button issue just because another thread was closed. This case has nothing to do with abortion.
    07-14-2013 10:40 PM
  2. GadgetGator's Avatar
    It's not like he was an eleven year old who had no preconceived notion of rational thought, this was a fully grown man. If Trayvon truly thought his life was in danger he would have walked the other way.
    If Zimmerman had really through a person was a danger HE would have walked away. He certainly would not have gone the same direction "to get an address" because "he didn't remember the street name". A distance of at least half a football field if not more going by the videos I have seen.

    As for Trayvon....no, he was still a teenager. Not even legally able to vote. Not able to grab a drink. Not able to be sent off to war. Not able to legally own a gun like Zimmerman had. A fully grown man he was not. I don't even know why this is an issue or why people keep saying things like that because it just isn't true. As for walking the other way, we don't know what happened that night. All we have to go on is the version from the only person left alive. Someone that has been caught in lies already. So why is it that he is being given a pass here by some of you? Just because someone says something, doesn't make it true. Especially when he has lied about other things. So why do you believe that Trayvon jumped out of the bushes and attacked him? It's quite possible that Zimmerman pulled a gun on him sooner and Trayvon reacted. Or Zimmerman could have seen him and wrestled him down to the ground. Lots of possibilities. None of which any of us will ever know is true.

    As for walking away....walk where exactly? It should be noted that Trayvon had a younger 12 year old brother waiting at home. If he felt like someone was stalking him, why would he lead that person straight to his house and younger brother? Now that's not to give Trayvon a pass in this whole thing either. I do think he should have been on the line with police as well. It very well may have been a fatal mistake of his. But then again, a lot of black people have not had good experiences with the police and do not trust them to come to their aid in time of need. I will never be able to say that is how Trayvon felt, but it is one possible explanation. I think that we as adults cannot fully look at a black teen's heart and mind through an adult (or white) prism because our experiences are not the same.
    07-14-2013 11:04 PM
  3. JHBThree's Avatar
    No, I believe the outrage can also stem from a grown man murdering a child.

    Sent from my HTC6435LVW using AC Forums mobile app
    I take issue with labeling him a child. Trayvon was 17. He was not a child.

    Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk 2
    Live2ride883 likes this.
    07-14-2013 11:08 PM
  4. JHBThree's Avatar
    That child happened to be a 17 year old (almost 18), 6ft, amateur mma fighter. Zimmerman was rather small compared to him.

    It's not like he was an eleven year old who had no preconceived notion of rational thought, this was a fully grown man. If Trayvon truly thought his life was in danger he would have walked the other way.

    Also for those of you who say this is race related, it is to a point. Mass media would say zimmerman shot him for racial reasons, yet when he called the police he made no racial slurs or comments. To the contrary, when Trayvon called his girlfriend he said "creepy a** cracker".

    If anything this case could be seen as reverse discrimination and racial profiling against Zimmerman.

    Sprint GS3 Running TN's Msg and Chubbs
    It wasn't race related. The FBI investigated it to see if it was, as a precursor to federal civil rights charges, and they found absolutely no evidence that it was.

    Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk 2
    07-14-2013 11:10 PM
  5. Mooncatt's Avatar
    Please don't derail this topic into another hot button issue just because another thread was closed. This case has nothing to do with abortion.
    Neither does the point about drinking and voting ages as was mentioned in your post L2R was quoting, but all three points can work for analogies and comparisons. Maybe the abortion one wasn't a good choice considering the other thread, but age of consent laws, gambling laws, movie/music maturity ratings, drivers licencing, smoking, and any other age restricted law out there would work just as well. At 17, you can no longer say someone is just a kid.
    07-14-2013 11:16 PM
  6. GadgetGator's Avatar
    The reasonable doubt necessary was always present.
    Somewhat agree, but then I question if ANY altercation between two people without video and witnesses meets that definition. So then do we not prosecute murders anymore either because no one else was there and the killer is the only person left standing? I think this reasonable doubt crap needs to go the way of the dodo bird and replaced with common sense.

    The prosecution withheld evidence,
    Agreed

    the DOJ obstructed justice by injecting itself in the case,
    How so?

    the judge also screwed up by asking Zimmerman if he wanted to testify before the defense closed out its arguments.
    I do not believe that to be true. That being said, I don't know why she was asking him directly like that instead of through the attorneys. It's not unheard of, and it is her discretion, but it is a bit unorthodox. But then again, lots of things about high profile trials are.....all the way around on both sides.

    The media constantly showed very young pictures of Martin that were not
    representative of the 180 pound 6'2" 17 year old and like all 17 year old Marines he was not a child.
    Agreed, but they also showed photos of him older. There was a mix of both. It's not like they only showed him as a 12 year old and to say so is just untrue. Although what does it matter? Those are not the photos the jury saw. The jury isn't watching CNN.

    Sometimes people make bad choices, Martin made a really bad choice by jumping Zimmerman, near Zimmermans vehicle, not farther away, blowing holes in the Zimmerman pursuit theory.
    Where are you getting this from? You cannot know this to be true. There is no eye witness of the event. There is no video of the fight. You cannot know who made the first move. You only have one side's story to go on. The other person is dead. So why do you automatically assume that his version is the correct one simply because he is the only one alive?? And Zimmerman WAS pursuing. He stated specifically so on the 911 tape when he was asked by the dispatcher if he was following Trayvon. Answer: Yes. At which point he was told to stay in the car and which he did not do.

    He was actually doing his job as a neighborhood watch person, legally armed just in the event something really
    stupid would happen where he would need to defend himself.
    No he wasn't. The neighborhood watch rules specifically say to not pursue and confront other people. The guidelines also state that you are just the eyes and ears of law enforcement, not a deputy sheriff and should not think of yourself that way. Many neighborhood watch associations frown on carrying of weapons. So there was a whole bunch of things that night that Zimmerman just did wrong. Plain and simple. Had he not done these things, Trayvon would still be alive.

    Policy of caution guides Neighborhood Watch groups | Tampa Bay Times

    Rules for neighborhood watch discussed in George Zimmerman trial - latimes.com
    07-14-2013 11:35 PM
  7. GadgetGator's Avatar
    Neither does the point about drinking and voting ages as was mentioned in your post L2R was quoting, but all three points can work for analogies and comparisons. Maybe the abortion one wasn't a good choice considering the other thread, but age of consent laws, gambling laws, movie/music maturity ratings, drivers licencing, smoking, and any other age restricted law out there would work just as well. At 17, you can no longer say someone is just a kid.
    But you CANNOT say they are an adult either. Otherwise they could do all those other things that adults can do, right? Yes sometimes teens can be tried as an adult if they do something so heinous that it is deemed the actions of an adult. But is that what we have here? It seems that the one who got killed was also put on trial.

    Also, as long as we are discussing the subject, at what point is someone no longer a kid? 11? 12? 14? 17? When exactly does this transition occur? I think that is why people are getting hung up on this issue because there is no real clear cut definition.
    07-14-2013 11:45 PM
  8. Mooncatt's Avatar
    But you CANNOT say they are an adult either. Otherwise they could do all those other things that adults can do, right? Yes sometimes teens can be tried as an adult if they do something so heinous that it is deemed the actions of an adult. But is that what we have here? It seems that the one who got killed was also put on trial.
    I'd call him a young adult. The way I've seen most people portray it, when referring to him as a kid, is as if to say he is on the same level as an actual kid, not a young adult who should know better how to handle such situations.

    Also, as long as we are discussing the subject, at what point is someone no longer a kid? 11? 12? 14? 17? When exactly does this transition occur? I think that is why people are getting hung up on this issue because there is no real clear cut definition.
    Ask a few people what a "kid" is, and I'll bet most of them tell you it's someone under the age of 15, if not less. The general consensus from what I see in media and with talking to others is baby (0-1), toddler (2-4), kid/child (5-10 or 12), tween (11-12), teen (13-16), and late teen/young adult (18-19), adult (20+). As you see, and I pointed out before, there are obvious stages people grow through, and these more narrow terms help better describe it. You don't simply go from immature little kid to fully functional adult at midnight on your 18th birthday. While the ages may vary a bit, there's no question in my mind as to be able to blur the line enough to call Treyvon a kid. I don't know enough to form a hard set opinion on the overall case, but I would imagine both people did something to instigate the altercation. To call Treyvon "just a kid" is like giving him a pass at whatever he did to instigate/escalate the situation as if he didn't know any better.
    07-15-2013 02:09 AM
  9. Bratigan's Avatar
    I stand by my comments.
    07-15-2013 07:12 AM
  10. Live2ride883's Avatar
    Please don't derail this topic into another hot button issue just because another thread was closed. This case has nothing to do with abortion.

    There was no attempt to derail the conversation. You brought up age and maturity levels but since you do not like it when someone challenges your response you decide that my question concerning your comment is an attempt to derail the thread while yours is not???

    That's interesting..

    And for those bringing the other thread into this. Yes I participated with 1 post in that thread. My views on abortion are well known here so I did not even address that issue.

    Here is the comment in that threat I was replying to and my response:

    Gollum18:
    "Although I will add this, to date there have been 649 laws regulating what women can do with their bodies, but not a single one has been passed telling a man what he can do with his."

    Me:
    "In Ohio my wife had to sign a consent form for me to have my vasectomy a dozen years ago when we reached the decision not to have any more kids."

    I am not trying insult anyone, or offend anyone. I am simply defending what I said and my reasons for saying it.
    07-15-2013 08:33 AM
  11. Live2ride883's Avatar
    I'd call him a young adult. The way I've seen most people portray it, when referring to him as a kid, is as if to say he is on the same level as an actual kid, not a young adult who should know better how to handle such situations.


    Ask a few people what a "kid" is, and I'll bet most of them tell you it's someone under the age of 15, if not less. The general consensus from what I see in media and with talking to others is baby (0-1), toddler (2-4), kid/child (5-10 or 12), tween (11-12), teen (13-16), and late teen/young adult (18-19), adult (20+). As you see, and I pointed out before, there are obvious stages people grow through, and these more narrow terms help better describe it. You don't simply go from immature little kid to fully functional adult at midnight on your 18th birthday. While the ages may vary a bit, there's no question in my mind as to be able to blur the line enough to call Treyvon a kid. I don't know enough to form a hard set opinion on the overall case, but I would imagine both people did something to instigate the altercation. To call Treyvon "just a kid" is like giving him a pass at whatever he did to instigate/escalate the situation as if he didn't know any better.
    Young adult is a more acceptable term with his age, yes he was a minor (under 18)
    but he was not a child. Even at that you don't get to turn 17 and become a thug overnight.

    As a child/kid my parents taught me that we decide what course of action we take, and that we are responsible for our actions and must at one time or another face those consequences whether they are good or bad. Other people can make us angry, they can hurt us physically or even emotionally but we control how we react.

    I honestly believe Mr. Zimmerman feared for his life at the hands of Mr. Martin.
    cdmjlt369 likes this.
    07-15-2013 08:52 AM
  12. Live2ride883's Avatar
    Please don't derail this topic into another hot button issue just because another thread was closed. This case has nothing to do with abortion.
    This case has nothing to do with drinking or voting rights either.
    cdmjlt369 likes this.
    07-15-2013 08:57 AM
  13. Live2ride883's Avatar
    It wasn't race related. The FBI investigated it to see if it was, as a precursor to federal civil rights charges, and they found absolutely no evidence that it was.

    Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk 2
    And now that he was found not guilty in the criminal case, the fed's will more than likely re-open that investigation.
    07-15-2013 09:05 AM
  14. DS1331's Avatar
    the points don't mean anything to me because WHO was the aggressor ??? Who was told not to pursue trevon? No one had to die that night at all sorry.


    Sent from my HTC One using AC Forums mobile app
    GadgetGator likes this.
    07-15-2013 10:39 AM
  15. TheyStoleMyName's Avatar
    To ask some ppl a question, if u had a teenager trying to slam ur head into the ground wouldn't u try to defend urself? It's sad he had to die over it but why would he attack him, attack a grown man when he was a teenager. If Zimmerman was provoking him, he could have ran away no problem but he chose to react.

    Zimmerman could have defended himself without a gun but a skull can break real easily when being hit on the ground.

    I also do not think the verdict was given because of racism. But in the defense of defending one's self.

    Did they confirm that the kid had any drugs in his system?

    from what ever phone I feel like using today
    07-15-2013 10:47 AM
  16. llamabreath's Avatar
    I think they both certainly let it escalate way too far, but PLEASE stop saying he was just a "kid".

    Many kids are taller and bigger than adults. On a dark, rainy night someone tall like that can definitely be mistaken as an adult. I'm 6 feet. My stepson and most of his friends are taller than me. He and them just recently turned eighteen.
    To keep stressing that he was a kid... it's just misleading and adding fuel to the fire.

    Do you think Zimmerman should've asked how old Trayvon was before he protected himself?

    Is it not possible for a 17 year old to beat down an adult?

    cdmjlt369 likes this.
    07-15-2013 11:04 AM
  17. Jennifer Stough's Avatar
    I think they both certainly let it escalate way too far, but PLEASE stop saying he was just a "kid".

    Many kids are taller and bigger than adults. On a dark, rainy night someone tall like that can definitely be mistaken as an adult. I'm 6 feet. My stepson and most of his friends are taller than me. He and them just recently turned eighteen.
    To keep stressing that he was a kid... it's just misleading and adding fuel to the fire.

    Do you think Zimmerman should've asked how old Trayvon was before he protected himself?

    Is it not possible for a 17 year old to beat down an adult?

    Size doesn't matter. I was 5'10 at 14, but I wasn't anywhere near the maturity level of adults of the same size. In the grand scheme of things, 17 years old is very young, still a child. I'm sure you think of things differently now that you are older, than when you were 17. Martin will never get the chance to develop mentally now because of an aggressive man who couldnt take a direct order. I know that if someone were to pursue the average 17 year old boy, for no substantial reason, it would, much of the time, result in a scuffle. Just because you are losing in a fight, does not mean you have reasonable doubt for the safety of your life, and doesn't mean you can pull a gun and fire point blank in a persons chest, whether he thought him to be a child or a man. At 30 years old, an adult is expected to have a much higher mentality level than a 17 year old. It is his fault that the whole situation escalated to where it ended. Zimmermans injuries were inconsistent with his testimony, and were declared by a doctor to be non life threatening.

    Sent from my HTC6435LVW using AC Forums mobile app
    GadgetGator likes this.
    07-15-2013 11:35 AM
  18. mhenne4's Avatar
    Size doesn't matter. I was 5'10 at 14, but I wasn't anywhere near the maturity level of adults of the same size. In the grand scheme of things, 17 years old is very young, still a child. I'm sure you think of things differently now that you are older, than when you were 17. Martin will never get the chance to develop mentally now because of an aggressive man who couldnt take a direct order. I know that if someone were to pursue the average 17 year old boy, for no substantial reason, it would, much of the time, result in a scuffle. Just because you are losing in a fight, does not mean you have reasonable doubt for the safety of your life, and doesn't mean you can pull a gun and fire point blank in a persons chest, whether he thought him to be a child or a man. At 30 years old, an adult is expected to have a much higher mentality level than a 17 year old. It is his fault that the whole situation escalated to where it ended. Zimmermans injuries were inconsistent with his testimony, and were declared by a doctor to be non life threatening.

    Sent from my HTC6435LVW using AC Forums mobile app
    Direct order from who? Large sad news people, the 911 operator isnt a cop nor an officer of the law. He/she is nothing more than someone that connects people to the police or rescue. They have ZERO authority to compell a person to do anything.

    It sucks that this 17 yr old is dead, I feel terrible for his family but when you look at his history (he was expelled from school for fighting and sent to an alternative school) its not a stretch to think he started another fight, a fight that he lost badly.

    To your other point, the injuries GZ faced dont have to be life threatening for stand your ground to apply. He has to perceive great harm or death, OR be receiving great harm. If he felt his life was in danger he had the right to act, which he did, and which the jury agreed.

    TM wasnt the angel he has been shown as by the media.
    07-15-2013 11:47 AM
  19. llamabreath's Avatar
    Size doesn't matter. I was 5'10 at 14, but I wasn't anywhere near the maturity level of adults of the same size. In the grand scheme of things, 17 years old is very young, still a child. I'm sure you think of things differently now that you are older, than when you were 17. Martin will never get the chance to develop mentally now because of an aggressive man who couldnt take a direct order. I know that if someone were to pursue the average 17 year old boy, for no substantial reason, it would, much of the time, result in a scuffle. Just because you are losing in a fight, does not mean you have reasonable doubt for the safety of your life, and doesn't mean you can pull a gun and fire point blank in a persons chest, whether he thought him to be a child or a man. At 30 years old, an adult is expected to have a much higher mentality level than a 17 year old. It is his fault that the whole situation escalated to where it ended. Zimmermans injuries were inconsistent with his testimony, and were declared by a doctor to be non life threatening.

    Sent from my HTC6435LVW using AC Forums mobile app
    You're talking about maturity level.

    I'm talking about appearance on a dark, rainy night.

    Which do you think was more obvious at that moment?

    Appearance or maturity level of a complete stranger.

    07-15-2013 11:55 AM
  20. jdpj2008's Avatar
    Question so now that we many of you have established Zimmerman was OK in his action, does the act of some one following you down the street create a reasonable expectation that you should fear for your life and allow you to shoot someone who is following you? Especially if said person gets out of the car. I mean if we are boiling this down to just the act of fearing for your life what does that mean. Is it physical violence that necessitates this? Or situations? Also check out the new case in Florida where the guy sit kids at a gas station after he confronted them about loud music. Oh and no one has yet to respond to the case of the last woman who is in jail for the warning shots. By the way Zimmerman being a racist isn't the point. It's the larger perception of how travon is being portrayed and the thought of why it was OK for him to stalk him with the "show me your papers" questioning that everyone seems to think is OK that brings to light some of our preconceived notions of each other.

    sent from my soon to be replaced HTC Rezound
    07-15-2013 12:17 PM
  21. Jennifer Stough's Avatar
    You're talking about maturity level.

    I'm talking about appearance on a dark, rainy night.

    Which do you think was more obvious at that moment?

    Appearance or maturity level of a complete stranger.

    I agree that from appearance on a dark night he could be perceived as an adult. My argument was more towards Zimmermans maturity level, and those who comment on how Martin initiated it by starting the physical confrontation.

    As for the direct order from the emergency operator. While he had no legal obligation to not pursue, he also had no legal standpoint to pursue. It was all speculation. His injuries are consistent with a regular street fight, not a fight that required deadly force. His life was NOT in danger. That's like saying if I'm walking down the street and I throw myself in front of a speeding vehicle in an attempt to slow them down, it's ok to shoot the driver when I feel like they aren't going to stop and my life is in immediate danger. Anyone can feel like their life is in immediate danger at any point in time. That does not make it ok to kill someone. You're not going to agree with the metaphor because it doesn't make sense to you. Precisely why I don't agree with Zimmermans defense.

    Sent from my HTC6435LVW using AC Forums mobile app
    GadgetGator likes this.
    07-15-2013 12:24 PM
  22. llamabreath's Avatar
    Sharpton, Jackson and their race-baiting cronies demanded justice, demanded a murder trial and they got one.

    Now that they lost, they want a do-over? Is that how this works?

    Like i stated previously: Where o where is the outrage from them AND some of you about blacks killing other black "kids" EVERY SINGLE DAY???

    Nobody, none of you, have been able, or even attempted to answer why blacks killing blacks in the name of "keeping it real" is nothing to be outraged about.. and yet you portray yourselves to care so very much about kids. But all of the sudden; because Zimmerman is a lighter shade of skin, you are hereby "outraged".

    Gimme a break, will ya?

    I've asked twice. Now I'm asking a third time.

    07-15-2013 12:28 PM
  23. pappy53's Avatar
    Did they confirm that the kid had any drugs in his system?
    Yes, he was high on marijuana.
    07-15-2013 12:37 PM
  24. Jennifer Stough's Avatar
    Sharpton, Jackson and their race-baiting cronies demanded justice, demanded a murder trial and they got one.

    Now that they lost, they want a do-over? Is that how this works?

    Like i stated previously: Where o where is the outrage from them AND some of you about blacks killing other black "kids" EVERY SINGLE DAY???

    Nobody, none of you, have been able, or even attempted to answer why blacks killing blacks in the name of "keeping it real" is nothing to be outraged about.. and yet you portray yourselves to care so very much about kids. But all of the sudden; because Zimmerman is a lighter shade of skin, you are hereby "outraged".

    Gimme a break, will ya?

    I've asked twice. Now I'm asking a third time.

    I've already stated earlier in this thread that my primary outrage is more in a grown man killing a minor (giving you a break, since child or kid seems to get to you.) I get outraged every single time I see a human, of any age or color, murdered for no concrete reason.

    Those who say Martin isn't as innocent as the media portrays them, well neither is Zimmerman. If justice had been served in his previous aggressive crimes, he never would have been legally capable of carrying a weapon to begin with.

    Sent from my HTC6435LVW using AC Forums mobile app
    07-15-2013 12:40 PM
  25. llamabreath's Avatar
    Yes, he was high on marijuana.
    I actually don't think that makes much difference in this case.

    07-15-2013 12:41 PM
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