07-14-2014 07:46 AM
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  1. msndrstood's Avatar
    Here is the difference. Very few people knew what the patriot act really was. Because of its misuse more and more as time goes on people on a larger scale understand it more. The patriot act ironically is like the gun and many other tools, it can be used wrongly.

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app
    It was covered pretty extensively when the bill was being debated. I knew what was in it, but I made it a point to find out too.

    The abuses have been going on since day one, so that argument isn't valid. (As evidenced by wikileaks.)


    Sent via Note II
    Fairclough likes this.
    08-26-2013 12:34 PM
  2. JHBThree's Avatar
    Subject to passing constitutional challenges then:

    1. Yes
    2. No
    3. Yes
    4. Yes for hand guns
    5. Yes
    6. Yes for hand guns
    7. No
    Nope. The supreme court's decisions regarding guns make it clear that no law that makes it unreasonably difficult to purchase or own a gun would be constitutional.

    Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
    08-26-2013 01:30 PM
  3. cdmjlt369's Avatar
    It was covered pretty extensively when the bill was being debated. I knew what was in it, but I made it a point to find out too.

    The abuses have been going on since day one, so that argument isn't valid. (As evidenced by wikileaks.)


    Sent via Note II
    If you notice, I did not fault either of the last two administrations. I simply stated that its gotten worse as time has passed. People who pay attention to issues like these probably did understand. Sadly, most americans don't pay attention or research anything on their own. Most people, I feel still do not understand that's what has given the government all of this overreach.

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app
    msndrstood likes this.
    08-26-2013 02:41 PM
  4. msndrstood's Avatar
    If you notice, I did not fault either of the last two administrations. I simply stated that its gotten worse as time has passed. People who pay attention to issues like these probably did understand. Sadly, most americans don't pay attention or research anything on their own. Most people, I feel still do not understand that's what has given the government all of this overreach.

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app
    I did notice. And I do agree that most people don't pay attention. I am a news junkie, so I pretty much follow a lot of stuff and I'm amazed at the people who say 'I don't watch/read/follow the news. I have to know what's going on, I've followed the news as long as I can remember, mid 60's at least if not earlier.

    You would not believe the stuff I find.

    Sent via Note II
    08-26-2013 02:54 PM
  5. llamabreath's Avatar
    If you notice, I did not fault either of the last two administrations. I simply stated that its gotten worse as time has passed. People who pay attention to issues like these probably did understand. Sadly, most americans don't pay attention or research anything on their own. Most people, I feel still do not understand that's what has given the government all of this overreach.

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app
    Most Americans are too concerned about T.V. shows, American Idol, dancing contests and other crap to be worried about what's going on in Washington. EXACTLY what the politicians want. Same reason they didn't want blacks to know how to read, back in the 1800's.

    A knowledgeable population is a threat to government.

    08-26-2013 03:50 PM
  6. Live2ride883's Avatar
    **I do apologize for my numbers being off in my other post (658). This was not done intentionally to mislead anyone, it was simply a matter of me mixing numbers up.**



    Prosecute people who falsify background check information
    The Obama Administration Justice Department is also not strongly enforcing prosecutions of people who falsify information on their gun background checks. The FBI reported 71,000 instances of people lying on their background checks to buy guns in 2009. But the Justice Department prosecuted a mere 77 cases, or a fraction of 1%.

    There's no good reason to not enforce this law and prosecute violators. This also has strong support, with 99% of non-NRA member gun owners and 95% of NRA members expressing support for punishing traffickers to the full extent of the law. This is another area where the Obama Administration can "do better."

    The irony is that gun rights advocates have argued for years that it's not that more gun laws are needed, but that the existing laws need to be better enforced. Sen. Richard Blumenthal (D-Conn.) said, "gun-rights activists [have] been saying for years and years [that] the existing laws should be enforced more effectively and proactively." In line with that, the NRA backed the 2007 NICS Improvement Amendments Act that President Bush signed into law.


    Gun Control Facts: Existing Gun Laws Would Reduce Crime, But These Are Not Enforced

    -----------------

    In fact, according to the National Criminal Justice Reference Service (NCJRS), in 2010 of the 6 million Americans who attempted to buy a gun, about 76,000 were denied. Of those, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) referred 4,732 cases for prosecution. Of these, 44 people were prosecuted and 13 were punished.

    Proof The Obama Administration Is Going After The Good Guys With Guns - Forbes

    ----------------------
    The Clinton administration pushed to ban firearms that looked like military rifles, pretending to be interested in making America safer. But ATF referrals for prosecution of federal gun law violations declined under Clinton. Under Bush/Ashcroft, ATF referrals increased 67%. They also increased 77% under Clintons predecessor, George HW Bush, proving that there always were criminals out there deserving prosecution.

    The PJ Tatler Biggest Gun Ban States = Lowest Prosecutions for Federal Gun Law Violations
    08-26-2013 04:32 PM
  7. llamabreath's Avatar
    PM sent to L2R

    I repeat...

    PM sent to L2R

    08-26-2013 05:02 PM
  8. Live2ride883's Avatar
    PM sent to L2R

    I repeat...

    PM sent to L2R

    Read and responded
    08-26-2013 05:25 PM
  9. msndrstood's Avatar
    **I do apologize for my numbers being off in my other post (658). This was not done intentionally to mislead anyone, it was simply a matter of me mixing numbers up.**



    Prosecute people who falsify background check information
    The Obama Administration Justice Department is also not strongly enforcing prosecutions of people who falsify information on their gun background checks. The FBI reported 71,000 instances of people lying on their background checks to buy guns in 2009. But the Justice Department prosecuted a mere 77 cases, or a fraction of 1%.

    There's no good reason to not enforce this law and prosecute violators. This also has strong support, with 99% of non-NRA member gun owners and 95% of NRA members expressing support for punishing traffickers to the full extent of the law. This is another area where the Obama Administration can "do better."

    The irony is that gun rights advocates have argued for years that it's not that more gun laws are needed, but that the existing laws need to be better enforced. Sen. Richard Blumenthal (D-Conn.) said, "gun-rights activists [have] been saying for years and years [that] the existing laws should be enforced more effectively and proactively." In line with that, the NRA backed the 2007 NICS Improvement Amendments Act that President Bush signed into law.


    Gun Control Facts: Existing Gun Laws Would Reduce Crime, But These Are Not Enforced

    -----------------

    In fact, according to the National Criminal Justice Reference Service (NCJRS), in 2010 of the 6 million Americans who attempted to buy a gun, about 76,000 were denied. Of those, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) referred 4,732 cases for prosecution. Of these, 44 people were prosecuted and 13 were punished.

    Proof The Obama Administration Is Going After The Good Guys With Guns - Forbes

    ----------------------
    The Clinton administration pushed to ban firearms that looked like military rifles, pretending to be interested in making America safer. But ATF referrals for prosecution of federal gun law violations declined under Clinton. Under Bush/Ashcroft, ATF referrals increased 67%. They also increased 77% under Clintons predecessor, George HW Bush, proving that there always were criminals out there deserving prosecution.

    The PJ Tatler Biggest Gun Ban States = Lowest Prosecutions for Federal Gun Law Violations
    Here's the dilemma...

    How is the Justice Department supposed to prosecute someone who is falsifying information on a gun purchase application?

    The background check goes to the State Police for verification, if nothing shows up, he gets the gun. If that gun is used during a crime (or stolen) the government has to go back to the manufacturer to find out where the gun was sold and to get the name of the gun shop that sold it since all records are kept at the gun shop only. Of course in VA, the gun shops can destroy those records and there is no way to find the true owner of the gun or if indeed there was falsification on the application. (This may be true in other states, I just know about VA.)

    It seems to me, that the Justice Dept is pretty busy, and since everyone seems to want smaller government, how are they going to track down these people for prosecution?

    If someone tries to get a gun and has a warrant or a felony, they aren't going to walk out with that gun. Now, mental health is another issue. I'd like to know what information is being falsified on the applications.

    Since it appears that a fair number of high profile murders recently involved legally purchased guns, there seems to be a flaw in the system. How do we plug that hole in the gun buying process?

    Edit:
    Can you find a link that isn't so right wing, I just can't take anything they say seriously since they are so partisan. Thanks.

    Sent via Note II
    Fairclough likes this.
    08-26-2013 06:15 PM
  10. llamabreath's Avatar
    Here's the dilemma...

    How is the Justice Department supposed to prosecute someone who is falsifying information on a gun purchase application?

    ......

    It seems to me, that the Justice Dept is pretty busy, and since everyone seems to want smaller government, how are they going to track down these people for prosecution?
    Uh, same way the I.R.S. prosecutes false info? They're pretty busy too, no?

    08-26-2013 06:36 PM
  11. Live2ride883's Avatar
    Here's the dilemma...

    How is the Justice Department supposed to prosecute someone who is falsifying information on a gun purchase application?

    The background check goes to the State Police for verification, if nothing shows up, he gets the gun. If that gun is used during a crime (or stolen) the government has to go back to the manufacturer to find out where the gun was sold and to get the name of the gun shop that sold it since all records are kept at the gun shop only. Of course in VA, the gun shops can destroy those records and there is no way to find the true owner of the gun or if indeed there was falsification on the application. (This may be true in other states, I just know about VA.)

    It seems to me, that the Justice Dept is pretty busy, and since everyone seems to want smaller government, how are they going to track down these people for prosecution?

    If someone tries to get a gun and has a warrant or a felony, they aren't going to walk out with that gun. Now, mental health is another issue. I'd like to know what information is being falsified on the applications.

    Since it appears that a fair number of high profile murders recently involved legally purchased guns, there seems to be a flaw in the system. How do we plug that hole in the gun buying process?

    Edit:
    Can you find a link that isn't so right wing, I just can't take anything they say seriously since they are so partisan. Thanks.

    Sent via Note II

    OK, for one background checks go thru the ATF. Which uses NICS to determine if someone is legally allowed to purchase a gun. See Failing to Fund NICS here: Gun Control Facts: Existing Gun Laws Would Reduce Crime, But These Are Not Enforced
    --------

    How do they prosecute, well lying on that form is a felony. If the person falsifies criminal history, or reason they are purchasing it they send that data to a federal prosecutor and they arrest and prosecute the individual.
    --------

    Personally I have no way of knowing what information is being falsified, and honesty it doesn't matter it's still a felony and should be prosecuted. Since the customer fills out the information then they should be held responsible for it. Even if they are lying about mental health issues.
    --------

    Other than the Aurora, CO theater shooting exactly which high profile shootings are you saying were carried out with legally purchased guns. Now let me be clear, by legally purchased guns means the same person going in to a gun shop, filling out the form (without lying and therefore committing a felony, purchasing the gun(s) and then carrying out the murder.

    Please keep in mind that if NICS would have been properly updated then James Holmes would not have been able to purchase the weapons he used.
    ------------

    We plug the hole by vigorously prosecuting felons for attempting to purchase firearms, and people that lie on those forms.
    ----

    No I will not look for another source. Personally I don't think the type of source you want would be as straight forward with the information. However IF you happen to find one please feel free to share..
    The Hustleman likes this.
    08-26-2013 07:04 PM
  12. Live2ride883's Avatar
    Here's a good read from Harvard University. To get to the actual study open the page linked below, once it opens you will see a link "a study" in blue in the first sentence. It is in PDF format.

    Harvard study reveals gun control counterproductive | Small Government Times . com
    08-26-2013 07:28 PM
  13. msndrstood's Avatar
    Even though this is a self proclaimed conservative/libertarian site, they appear transparent and committed to posting facts. I did not read the entire site, but it might be one you want to bookmark.

    Who they are:

    http://www.justfacts.com/aboutus.asp

    Gun Control facts:

    http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp


    Sent via Note II
    Fairclough likes this.
    08-26-2013 07:49 PM
  14. Live2ride883's Avatar
    Even though this is a self proclaimed conservative/libertarian site, they appear transparent and committed to posting facts. I did not read the entire site, but it might be one you want to bookmark.

    Just Facts - About Us

    Sent via Note II
    Where's the firearm data?
    08-26-2013 07:52 PM
  15. msndrstood's Avatar
    Where's the firearm data?
    I was editing, here it is again:

    http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp

    Sent via Note II
    08-26-2013 07:57 PM
  16. Fairclough's Avatar
    I poster that yesterday. They believed it wasnt real when the information was supplied from the AU's bureau of statistics.

    The average cost of a prosecution is about $17,000 now if you multiplied this by 77,000 that's a fair chunk out of their budget. Thus you can imagine the government would like to prioritise these prosecutions

    Posted via Android Central App
    08-26-2013 09:14 PM
  17. Live2ride883's Avatar
    I poster that yesterday. They believed it wasnt real when the information was supplied from the AU's bureau of statistics.

    The average cost of a prosecution is about $17,000 now if you multiplied this by 77,000 that's a fair chunk out of their budget. Thus you can imagine the government would like to prioritise these prosecutions

    Posted via Android Central App
    Just out of curiosity, what price are you willing to put on the innocent victims life every time the federal government decides not to prosecute one of these cases?

    Gee, I'm really sorry sir but we didn't prosecute the scum that raped and murdered your daughter when we had the chance because it wasn't cost effective for us at that time.

    Also how would you react if it was learned that the thugs who murdered Chris Lane could have been prosecuted and off the streets if it wasn't so expensive???
    08-26-2013 09:23 PM
  18. Fairclough's Avatar
    Just out of curiosity, what price are you willing to put on the innocent victims life every time the federal government decides not to prosecute one of these cases?

    Gee, I'm really sorry sir but we didn't prosecute the scum that raped and murdered your daughter when we had the chance because it wasn't cost effective for us at that time.

    Also how would you react if it was learned that the thugs who murdered Chris Lane could have been prosecuted and off the streets if it wasn't so expensive???
    It would be far cheaper and effective to but a tighter restriction one and secondly did they get a gun when they were caught lying on the sheet? No they didn't hence your scenario could be wrong.

    Thirdly I wonder how many of those 77,000 actually intended to lie because I know a lot of people make mistakes on forms. E.g I accident put assets on a gov document $4000 higher than what it is.


    I like how you did you did the price on human life when in the other thread you it doesn't matter If someone died from a miscarriage of justice. Ironic right.

    Posted via Android Central App
    08-26-2013 09:30 PM
  19. Live2ride883's Avatar
    It would be far cheaper and effective to but a tighter restriction one and secondly did they get a gun when they were caught lying on the sheet? No they didn't hence your scenario could be wrong.

    Thirdly I wonder how many of those 77,000 actually intended to lie because I know a lot of people make mistakes on forms. E.g I accident put assets on a gov document $4000 higher than what is it.

    Posted via Android Central App
    But at some point with 77,000 potential victims I would be right, so please answer the questions...
    08-26-2013 09:34 PM
  20. Live2ride883's Avatar

    Thirdly I wonder how many of those 77,000 actually intended to lie because I know a lot of people make mistakes on forms. E.g I accident put assets on a gov document $4000 higher than what it is.


    I like how you did you did the price on human life when in the other thread you it doesn't matter If someone died from a miscarriage of justice. Ironic right.
    These forms are NOT that difficult to fill out, and if you do not put the correct information then that's lying and you should be held responsible and accountable. If it asks for your drivers license number and you do not have it with you. All you have to do is come back with the correct information and fill out the form.

    And when you asked what I would say to one of those families in the other thread I answered that I didn't know. Then you managed to "miss" seeing my answer and then proceeded to give me a hard time about it until you finally saw it.......

    So are you going to answer or evade and distract?


    -------------------

    With taking both threads into consideration, I think it's more likely that one of those 77,000 would be more likely to commit a future crime than someone being sentenced to death is innocent.
    ------------
    08-26-2013 09:42 PM
  21. cdmjlt369's Avatar
    And interestingly enough after right to carry was allowed in those states, (the ones they listed) murder rates went down. When people have the right to carry, if you are a criminal you have to think twice because your potential victim may be armed. Also, if you notice the charts, death by firearms were such a small number.

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app
    08-26-2013 09:51 PM
  22. Fairclough's Avatar
    Test reply.

    OK fourth time I've replied and it hasnt been posted.

    1. Those 77,000 didn't get guns as they were rejected thus your scenario wouldn't occur.
    2. I would apologise for their loss, poor system allowing guns to the public in the first place with poor restrictions. I would apologise that the senate doesn't have the spine to put their seat on the line for safety "because they have lost some good people due to NRA." And that their loss is more important than senate seats.
    3. Our value of life is clearly different so try not to play that card. Your life is about 50cents
    Honestly I'm not to concerned with the humane way to put these animals down. A bullet to the head is about as much as I wanna spend, now in rape cases etc. I'd have to come up with a slow and painful way to send them on their way....
    You than followed it doesn't matter if its a miscarriage because it works most of the time.



    Posted via Android Central App
    08-26-2013 09:53 PM
  23. Fairclough's Avatar
    And interestingly enough after right to carry was allowed in those states, (the ones they listed) murder rates went down. When people have the right to carry, if you are a criminal you have to think twice because your potential victim may be armed. Also, if you notice the charts, death by firearms were such a small number.

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app
    That has been disproven earlier on.

    Posted via Android Central App
    08-26-2013 09:58 PM
  24. cdmjlt369's Avatar
    That has been disproven earlier on.

    Posted via Android Central App
    Post #687, provided by msunderstood provided a link that verified what i said in my last post. This was a post that you liked and thanked.

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app
    08-26-2013 10:11 PM
  25. Live2ride883's Avatar
    That has been disproven earlier on.

    Posted via Android Central App

    Link?

    And as for our other discussion I am done. If you wish to continue you can answer the questions asked. I am not going to go back and forth with you and have someone interpret our discussion as an argument and use that as a reason to close this thread.
    08-26-2013 10:11 PM
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