07-14-2014 07:46 AM
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  1. bradleyem's Avatar
    So you're saying the police don't protect the public or fight crime or put criminals in jail? That's up to the individual now?
    The vast majority of the time, the police do not PREVENT crimes from happening. They only ATTEMPT to bring to justice those who have committed the crime. The VICTIMS have already suffered their fate. As the saying goes, when seconds count the police are mere minutes away. So, no...for the most part they do NOT protect the public.

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    12-10-2013 10:28 PM
  2. palandri's Avatar
    The vast majority of the time, the police do not PREVENT crimes from happening. They only ATTEMPT to bring to justice those who have committed the crime. The VICTIMS have already suffered their fate. As the saying goes, when seconds count the police are mere minutes away. So, no...for the most part they do NOT protect the public.

    Sent from my XT926 using Tapatalk
    Really? So why do they drive around in squad cars and waste gasoline?

    ...and I go back to Live2ride883 original statement, "If you make it illegal for a law abiding citizen to own/carry a gun for self defense, then only criminals will have them." . That statement is incorrect, the police will still have guns. It sounds like something Alex Jones would say to instill fear in others.
    Fairclough likes this.
    12-10-2013 10:46 PM
  3. cdmjlt369's Avatar
    In my town, the law cars no longer say to "protect and serve" on them. They aren't even allowed to unlock your car anymore. And besides that point, a lot can happen before law enforcement can reach almost any scene, 20 minutes here. Not leaving my family or my protection to anyone else.

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    12-10-2013 10:54 PM
  4. bradleyem's Avatar
    Really? So why do they drive around in squad cars and waste gasoline?

    ...and I go back to Live2ride883 original statement, "If you make it illegal for a law abiding citizen to own/carry a gun for self defense, then only criminals will have them." . That statement is incorrect, the police will still have guns. It sounds like something Alex Jones would say to instill fear in others.
    Ok, step out of your dream world for a minute and put on your thinking cap...because I know that certain concepts are hard to comprehend...

    If someone breaks into your home at 3am, there is not going to be a police officer that just happens to be driving by in a squad car. IF there WAS by some coincidence, they still are likely not going to instinctively know that something bad is happening, and be able to stop it before the incident is over...possibly with grave consequences.

    If your wife is sitting at a red light in her car, and someone tries to carjack her...same thing.

    If your daughter is walking to her dorm room after studying at the library at college, and someone grabs her and rapes her...the police will investigate it....IF she reports it...and they may catch the assailant after he has done the same thing enough times to establish a pattern.

    Again...the VAST MAJORITY of the time, police investigate crimes AFTER someone has called them. And that is usually AFTER the crime has already occurred. If you don't believe me, all you have to do is watch the news to see for yourself just how FEW criminals are actually engaged by the police while committing the crime. I am in no way faulting the police. They can only do what they can with the information that that have at the time. I do electronic security and surveillance for a large police department and work with officers every day. I also am friends with, and shoot at the range with several of them, and I hear their stories all the time.

    Also, the referenced statement about only police having guns is incorrect because the MILITARY will still have weapons as well. Thus the need for the Second Amendment...so that citizens can protect The People against a tyrannical government. But, that is a separate issue from self defense.



    Sent from my XT926 using Tapatalk
    12-11-2013 04:16 AM
  5. Fairclough's Avatar
    Ok, step out of your dream world for a minute and put on your thinking cap...because I know that certain concepts are hard to comprehend...

    If someone breaks into your home at 3am, there is not going to be a police officer that just happens to be driving by in a squad car. IF there WAS by some coincidence, they still are likely not going to instinctively know that something bad is happening, and be able to stop it before the incident is over...possibly with grave consequences.

    If your wife is sitting at a red light in her car, and someone tries to carjack her...same thing

    If your daughter is walking to her dorm room after studying at the library at college, and someone grabs her and rapes her...the police will investigate it....IF she reports it...and they may catch the assailant after he has done the same thing enough times to establish a pattern.

    Again...the VAST MAJORITY of the time, police investigate crimes AFTER someone has called them. And that is usually AFTER the crime has already occurred. If you don't believe me, all you have to do is watch the news to see for yourself just how FEW criminals are actually engaged by the police while committing the crime. I am in no way faulting the police. They can only do what they can with the information that that have at the time. I do electronic security and surveillance for a large police department and work with officers every day. I also am friends with, and shoot at the range with several of them, and I hear their stories all the time.

    Also, the referenced statement about only police having guns is incorrect because the MILITARY will still have weapons as well. Thus the need for the Second Amendment...so that citizens can protect The People against a tyrannical government. But, that is a separate issue from self defence.



    Sent from my XT926 using Tapatalk
    Is it a dream world because where I am no one sees the need to carry a gun for self defence. We have guns for sport and cattle but only 5% of the population owns a gun and we have restrictions so out shootings don't occur. You could step out of your world into mine, it costs about $700 for flights? I don't think you will need a thinking hat even if some concepts are hard to comprehend (see what I did, used your talking to down and used it in a reply ). It would be obvious. Society can get along with out arms.

    If someone comes into my home at 3 am, my neighbour would belt them if I wasn't home. E.g. last time someone attempted they had 2 dogs on their ***... Quiet literally. We've had other times and a simple walk outside has deterred them when my own dogs weren't home.

    Secondly our cops do react if something looks odd e.g. climbing through a window. I've been walking at night and a patrol car asked what I was up to and where I was heading, than offered a lift.

    Not sure about your car but mine has locks on its doors :P as for the daughter bit. On schoolies 3 guys tried to touch my misses boobs on separate occasions... She dropped all 3 by herself (although I had team mates from the below me take care of her while she was there) She's a slim female. I don't think she would of needed a gun for that. Generally we have a 'hero' culture here where guys jump in for girls.

    I would actually say some of our police are more trained trained then our military particularly tactical response group but hey that's us.

    If everyone has fists you only defend with fists, everyone has guns a gun will be used and the risk of damage is higher. Yes we're not perfect e.g my coach as an elite athlete got held up once on holidays (with one arm unusable due to torn muscles) by a person with a knife... He slapped the bloke and ram off laughing. He didn't need a gun. Ha.

    - Android Central App. Remember courage is contagious.
    palandri and msndrstood like this.
    12-11-2013 04:57 AM
  6. cdmjlt369's Avatar
    Is it a dream world because where I am no one sees the need to carry a gun for self defence. We have guns for sport and cattle but only 5% of the population owns a gun and we have restrictions so out shootings don't occur. You could step out of your world into mine, it costs about $700 for flights? I don't think you will need a thinking hat even if some concepts are hard to comprehend (see what I did, used your talking to down and used it in a reply ). It would be obvious. Society can get along with out arms.

    If someone comes into my home at 3 am, my neighbour would belt them if I wasn't home. E.g. last time someone attempted they had 2 dogs on their ***... Quiet literally. We've had other times and a simple walk outside has deterred them when my own dogs weren't home.

    Secondly our cops do react if something looks odd e.g. climbing through a window. I've been walking at night and a patrol car asked what I was up to and where I was heading, than offered a lift.

    Not sure about your car but mine has locks on its doors :P as for the daughter bit. On schoolies 3 guys tried to touch my misses boobs on separate occasions... She dropped all 3 by herself (although I had team mates from the below me take care of her while she was there) She's a slim female. I don't think she would of needed a gun for that. Generally we have a 'hero' culture here where guys jump in for girls.

    I would actually say some of our police are more trained trained then our military particularly tactical response group but hey that's us.

    If everyone has fists you only defend with fists, everyone has guns a gun will be used and the risk of damage is higher. Yes we're not perfect e.g my coach as an elite athlete got held up once on holidays (with one arm unusable due to torn muscles) by a person with a knife... He slapped the bloke and ram off laughing. He didn't need a gun. Ha.

    - Android Central App. Remember courage is contagious.
    Your society is different. Your country doesn't have the same hindering that we have with 2 borders and a terrible immigration/border policy. And even then, when you start infringing on this right all that right, where do you stop?

    Sent from my XT1060 using AC Forums mobile app
    qxr likes this.
    12-11-2013 05:55 AM
  7. NoYankees44's Avatar
    Police are there to protect you, sometimes...

    2 men connected to my family have had their faces beaten in by thugs being initiated into gangs at night in well lit parking lots with baseball bats. One of the times, 911 was called before the first hit was ever made. His girlfriend was in the car and forced to watch the whole thing. Took the cops 10 min to get there. Do you know how much damage can be done to the human face in 5 min with a baseball bat? I now do. It takes years of surgery and pain to correct. Please tell them that the police will always be there to protect them.

    You can tell the same thing to a girl at the college i attended that was drug into her own apartment and raped even though she saw the guy coming and used pepper spray. It was the weekend and her neighbors were not there to hear her screams.

    Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF300T
    12-11-2013 06:03 AM
  8. Fairclough's Avatar
    We actually have big border patrol arguments. Its why our government is in a dispute with Indonesia (besides our embassy being caught tapping their PM's phone and his wife's) because all our illegal immigrants depart from there, with the exception of kiwi's overstaying their visa.

    But no right is lost, you can have a gun for a justifiable reason... Defence is not one of those.

    Didn't you guys say cars are more deadly then guns.. Should of chose a hit n run (seriously don't do that).

    Maybe your society is just so rooted from the belief you need guns any weapon is becoming acceptable! Here having a weapon is not acceptable. Your examples were in a country with guns and yet they weren't used. Now did guns stop your examples, no they didn't.

    A gun is not needed to defend yourself.

    - Android Central App. Remember courage is contagious.
    12-11-2013 06:10 AM
  9. Live2ride883's Avatar
    So you're saying the police don't protect the public or fight crime or put criminals in jail? That's up to the individual now?

    Read this:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/po...otus.html?_r=0
    12-11-2013 07:51 AM
  10. Serial Fordicator's Avatar
    Or this.

    http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/ka...rotection.html

    Look into warren vs district of Columbia.

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    12-11-2013 07:58 AM
  11. NoYankees44's Avatar
    We actually have big border patrol arguments. Its why our government is in a dispute with Indonesia (besides our embassy being caught tapping their PM's phone and his wife's) because all our illegal immigrants depart from there, with the exception of kiwi's overstaying their visa.

    But no right is lost, you can have a gun for a justifiable reason... Defence is not one of those.

    Didn't you guys say cars are more deadly then guns.. Should of chose a hit n run (seriously don't do that).

    Maybe your society is just so rooted from the belief you need guns any weapon is becoming acceptable! Here having a weapon is not acceptable. Your examples were in a country with guns and yet they weren't used. Now did guns stop your examples, no they didn't.

    A gun is not needed to defend yourself.

    - Android Central App. Remember courage is contagious.
    A gun would have stopped the girl from being raped. A gun could have stopped both men from being beaten depending on who had it and the choices they made. At least as badly.

    So personal defense is less of a reason that "sport" shooting? Really? Potentially saving human lives is less legitimate somehow? That is a very warped view.

    And yes a gun is needed to protect yourself in many situations. Despise you toting your girlfriend that can apparently hold her own, a 250lb muscular guy can easily overtake the majority of the population and there is nothing that the best fighter in the world can do against a group.

    Where I live, people carry every day. Yet there is rarely shootings. And when there are shootings, they are usually with weapons that were acquired illegally by criminals(which gun control would do nothing about) or in self defense where life and tragedy of the innocent were protected.

    I don't "need" guns. I choose to have them. I choose to take up the responsibility to protect myself and others. The truth is, I am terrified of being forced into a situation to have to use a firearm in self defense. If I ever have to, the memory will haunt me the rest of my life. But the though of the life of an innocent being taken when I could have chosen to do something to prevent it pushes me. My wife trusts me with her life. If I were to let her down, how could I live with myself? I will take the responsibility of carrying a firearm and all that goes with it, and then I will pray every day that I never have to use it.
    Live2ride883, cdmjlt369 and qxr like this.
    12-11-2013 08:00 AM
  12. cdmjlt369's Avatar
    We actually have big border patrol arguments. Its why our government is in a dispute with Indonesia (besides our embassy being caught tapping their PM's phone and his wife's) because all our illegal immigrants depart from there, with the exception of kiwi's overstaying their visa.

    But no right is lost, you can have a gun for a justifiable reason... Defence is not one of those.

    Didn't you guys say cars are more deadly then guns.. Should of chose a hit n run (seriously don't do that).

    Maybe your society is just so rooted from the belief you need guns any weapon is becoming acceptable! Here having a weapon is not acceptable. Your examples were in a country with guns and yet they weren't used. Now did guns stop your examples, no they didn't.

    A gun is not needed to defend yourself.

    - Android Central App. Remember courage is contagious.
    Opinion. Guns are not needed to defend yourself is a relative statement.

    Sent from my XT1060 using AC Forums mobile app
    12-11-2013 08:42 AM
  13. palandri's Avatar
    Ok, step out of your dream world for a minute and put on your thinking cap...because I know that certain concepts are hard to comprehend...

    If someone breaks into your home at 3am, there is not going to be a police officer that just happens to be driving by in a squad car. IF there WAS by some coincidence, they still are likely not going to instinctively know that something bad is happening, and be able to stop it before the incident is over...possibly with grave consequences.

    If your wife is sitting at a red light in her car, and someone tries to carjack her...same thing.

    If your daughter is walking to her dorm room after studying at the library at college, and someone grabs her and rapes her...the police will investigate it....IF she reports it...and they may catch the assailant after he has done the same thing enough times to establish a pattern.

    Again...the VAST MAJORITY of the time, police investigate crimes AFTER someone has called them. And that is usually AFTER the crime has already occurred. If you don't believe me, all you have to do is watch the news to see for yourself just how FEW criminals are actually engaged by the police while committing the crime. I am in no way faulting the police. They can only do what they can with the information that that have at the time. I do electronic security and surveillance for a large police department and work with officers every day. I also am friends with, and shoot at the range with several of them, and I hear their stories all the time.

    Also, the referenced statement about only police having guns is incorrect because the MILITARY will still have weapons as well. Thus the need for the Second Amendment...so that citizens can protect The People against a tyrannical government. But, that is a separate issue from self defense.
    Where have I said that you don't have a right to defend yourself? If someone breaks into your house at 3am, I could careless if you shoot them or hit them with a baseball bat. Did I say you should sit down and try to reason with them and maybe counsel them?

    Next, lets talk about the "M.O." (method of operation) of a burglar. A burglar wants an easy target..They will "case" an area looking for an easy target. If they see 5 house with the lights on and maybe hear sound inside, maybe see movement inside, those are house they avoid. They look for a house that looks unoccupied. Maybe the mail is sticking out of the mail box, newspapers piled up outside the door, no light on, the lawn hasn't been mowed in weeks...etc...Of course you know all this, because you said you work with a large police department everyday.

    Now let's talk about a carjacking scenario, What's the prudent thing to do if someone sticks a gun in your face and says give me your car? What would the officers at your police department say a person should do in that scenario? The only prudent thing to do is you give them your car and call the police. In this scenario, the actor has the element of surprise, it's too late to draw your gun. If you try to pull your gun out, it's too late and you're dead.

    Now what do the police do if people are getting mugged, robbed or assaulted in an area? Do they just take reports and try to solve the crime through statements and paperwork? No they don't, they become proactive (I've seen it numerous times in Chicago, because I've installed power in some of the craziest places for the C.P.D.) and set up decoys and trojan horses and nail the actor in the act.

    I agree, we'll save the tyrannical, rogue government issue for a different discussion.
    12-11-2013 08:49 AM
  14. palandri's Avatar
    I did read it and it's simply a ruling on police discretion, nothing more.
    12-11-2013 08:57 AM
  15. palandri's Avatar
    ....You can tell the same thing to a girl at the college i attended that was drug into her own apartment and raped even though she saw the guy coming and used pepper spray. It was the weekend and her neighbors were not there to hear her screams...
    ...A gun would have stopped the girl from being raped..
    You really need to stop with the dramatics.

    I've been through too many CQC scenarios and shoot/don't shoot scenarios to know what "could" happen in a situation like this.

    You see this scenario, you pull your gun and scream stop, stop, stop, then you pull the trigger only to find out it was an undercover police officer that didn't hear you arresting a suspect. or a deaf son trying to get his mentally ill mom back in the house. What we don't need is a bunch of untrained cowboys or hobby cops carrying a gun getting themselves involved in these scenarios.
    jdbii likes this.
    12-11-2013 09:20 AM
  16. NoYankees44's Avatar
    You really need to stop with the dramatics.

    I've been through too many CQC scenarios and shoot/don't shoot scenarios to know what "could" happen in a situation like this.

    You see this scenario, you pull your gun and scream stop, stop, stop, then you pull the trigger only to find out it was an undercover police officer that didn't hear you arresting a suspect. or a deaf son trying to get his mentally ill mom back in the house. What we don't need is a bunch of untrained cowboys or hobby cops carrying a gun getting themselves in these scenarios.
    You tell me to stop being dramatic and then pull out a dramatic scenario of your own? Ok...

    Every person that uses a gun is financially and legally responsible for every bullet they fire no matter what the circumstance. Anyone that does not know this does not need to be carrying a gun. It is a huge responsibility and liability that should never be taken lightly. Fortunately, respect and responsibility with firearms is taught from a young age where I live. While I have witnessed instances where I did not necessarily agree with how someone handled or viewed their firearm, I have never witnessed anyone that acted with outright negligence or ignorance. And I see people carry every day. And believe it or not, it is not a massive shooting gallery as you imply. Everyone is pretty polite actually, and shootings are a rarity.
    qxr likes this.
    12-11-2013 09:37 AM
  17. nolittdroid's Avatar
    Not to speak for someone else, but what I think she was going after was that if you said you own them for self defense, for collecting, for hunting, for sport, or any other reason, that'd make sense. Buying them simply because they're in the Constitution is doesn't make as much sense. That's what allows you to buy them, not the cause. Otherwise, since freedom of the press is guaranteed, should we all go buy printing presses and make our own newspapers? Having the right doesn't mandate utilizing it, but rather protects the ability of those who choose to do so. That's not a liberal comment in any way that I can fathom, but I may have misunderstood it.
    The 20th amendment gave women the right to vote... therefore it is the reason I vote. Because of the constitution.

    That sounds ridiculous, doesn't it?

    ✌SG3/iPad2
    12-11-2013 03:10 PM
  18. nolittdroid's Avatar
    Nolittdroid we need you in the politics section. You have common sense.

    - Android Central App. Remember courage is contagious.


    I show up here and there! Too moderate for most of the posters in here lol

    ✌SG3/iPad2
    Fairclough and palandri like this.
    12-11-2013 03:13 PM
  19. Scott7217's Avatar
    A few rifles will not stop a tyrannical government.
    I think a tyrannical government would not hesitate to send in a column of tanks (for example) into a town to suppress the civilians living there. Rifles would not be effective against armor. I certainly don't want the government to enslave the population, but I'm not sure how much firepower would be adequate for civilians to maintain their own liberty.
    12-11-2013 03:44 PM
  20. Scott7217's Avatar
    What I meant to say is that the WBC isn't so much a family tree, but a family bush.
    We certainly don't have to like the Westboro Baptist Church or what they stand for. This is why we have the right to free speech. They have the right to protest outside of funerals, and we have the right to condemn them for it. It would be interesting to see how things would turn out if the Westboro Baptist Church only protested at funerals where the deceased were known to be gay and just avoided the straight ones.
    12-11-2013 04:17 PM
  21. Scott7217's Avatar
    Way I see it we'd have to organize militias again to justify the right to bear arms and I believe that we should do so.
    In the 2008 case, District of Columbia v. Heller, the US Supreme Court clarified that the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to own a firearm without requiring service in a militia. People can own firearms for legal purposes, especially for self-defense at home.
    UJ95x likes this.
    12-11-2013 06:06 PM
  22. Tall Mike 2145's Avatar
    I think bacon should be a right. Oh, and also coffee and beer.
    Scott7217 likes this.
    12-11-2013 06:12 PM
  23. llamabreath's Avatar
    I think a tyrannical government would not hesitate to send in a column of tanks (for example) into a town to suppress the civilians living there. Rifles would not be effective against armor. I certainly don't want the government to enslave the population, but I'm not sure how much firepower would be adequate for civilians to maintain their own liberty.
    We would never have enough.
    I can't believe that Second Amendment Advocates don't see this.



    This is a signature.
    Scott7217 likes this.
    12-11-2013 07:46 PM
  24. Aquila's Avatar
    We would never have enough.
    I can't believe that Second Amendment Advocates don't see this.



    This is a signature.
    I'm inclined to agree. If we're asking how much "firepower" it would take to destroy operations capacity for 2.5 million of the best armed and trained professional SOLDIERS (not including law enforcement) with nearly unlimited mobility and material, when the opposition is extremely unorganized civilians with low grade small arms, little to no secure comm, little to no training, no navy, no air force, no fortifications, no engineers and spread over an area so large that they average about 4 potential "resistance fighters" per square mile... futile might be the wrong word, but this isn't a case of odds like the civil war or the revolutionary war... in those confrontations, the relative firepower was more or less equal and there were clearly defined military organizations involved. This is a case of more like 1 sterile and nonvenomous spider trying to attack 1,000,000 eagles. Sure, it can see them and shout at them, and maybe even touch one or two... but that spider is going to end the day as a quickly forgotten pre-lunch snack.

    Now, we can lay odds that such an engagement is never necessary, but once shots are fired and the establishment has to consider it's survival, the true power of the empire will be seen. I know there are brave people that would resist, and some of them are skilled, and maybe some imperial soldiers will defect... but most will not and such a revolt would be quickly erradicated, followed by being even more quickly spun in the media as a terrorist group being squashed, requiring more emergency powers for the establishment to defend the "freedom" of everyone else.
    Scott7217 likes this.
    12-11-2013 08:19 PM
  25. jdbii's Avatar
    I'm inclined to disagree with the last few comments. It all depends whether or not the state has the poltical will or not to carry out such action. Sure, if the full force of state is brought down on a few civilians with rifles then the civilians will be crushed, but if the state lacks the political will rifles might actually make a difference, espeicially if the soldiers manning the tanks wouldn't fire on civilians. A tyrant might sieze power but they still have to consolidate it.
    Aquila and Scott7217 like this.
    12-11-2013 08:41 PM
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