07-14-2014 07:46 AM
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  1. Old Stoneface's Avatar
    Storage laws would allow a more severe charge for people that leave guns out for others to easily get. I'm thinking mainly about cases of kid finds a parent's gun and then shoots themselves or someone else while playing with it.
    I am not opposed to storage laws, per se, providing they're written with real life taken into account. For example: How do you tell a young, single-parent mother who's just barely able to make ends meet she must buy a gun safe if she wants to have a firearm for self defence?

    That's about the only way I think registration may help, but even then it's not full proof. It wouldn't account for most currently owned guns in my opinion because I don't think many current owners will comply with registration of said guns.
    You can depend upon it.

    I'm not in favor of registration.
    I didn't think you were. I was trying to expand upon the question.

    TXTOU had the opinion that they should be registered, so I was trying to find out why that would be over what we have now.
    Don't hold your breath

    Jim
    06-10-2014 05:46 AM
  2. Old Stoneface's Avatar
    I'll probably regret posting in this thread, but here it is anyway...
    Handguns killed? The handguns got up, of their own volition, went out and killed people? Wow. I have never had one of my handguns do that. I did not know they were capable.

    I note Israel is in that graphic. Israel??? This Israel?





    Those are, I believe, fully automatic assault rifles. No, not the semi-automatic civilian rifles "news" people and anti-gun-nuts like to call "assault weapons," but the Real Deal.

    Switzerland? As in...


    (Allegedly a couple Swiss women riding to/from firearms practice. Unattributed.)

    If handguns are Evil, certainly so-called "assault weapons" (N.B.: An undefined class of firearms) are much worse, and true assault rifles (which do have a formal definition) far worse than those. How can anybody in Israel or Switzerland be alive?

    Could it possibly be something else is at work, here?

    Here's more food for thought: How did we, as a country, go from this


    (ref: UPDATED! 1956: Amazing Photos of Kids Handling & Learning About Guns in School (Time Magazine)

    to what happens with firearms in U.S. schools today?

    A thoughtful person might conclude that maybe, just maybe, it isn't "the guns."

    Jim
    Scott7217 likes this.
    06-10-2014 06:15 AM
  3. Mooncatt's Avatar
    I am not opposed to storage laws, per se, providing they're written with real life taken into account. For example: How do you tell a young, single-parent mother who's just barely able to make ends meet she must buy a gun safe if she wants to have a firearm for self defence?
    Or a couple without kids and no chance for someone to accidentally get the gun unless it's a burglar, committing a crime already to do so. What if they want to keep a gun bedside? Making storage laws would be tricky to be fair, but I'm not going to be fully opposed to them. I'd consider a proposal on an individual basis.
    06-10-2014 07:15 AM
  4. msndrstood's Avatar
    Handguns killed? The handguns got up, of their own volition, went out and killed people? Wow. I have never had one of my handguns do that. I did not know they were capable.

    I note Israel is in that graphic. Israel??? This Israel?

    http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/4981/israel3vk9.jpg
    http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/772/israel4qu3.jpg
    http://cdn.inquisitr.com/wp-content/...3391207679.jpg

    Those are, I believe, fully automatic assault rifles. No, not the semi-automatic civilian rifles "news" people and anti-gun-nuts like to call "assault weapons," but the Real Deal.

    Switzerland? As in...

    http://bunkerville.files.wordpress.c...pg?w=500&h=365
    (Allegedly a couple Swiss women riding to/from firearms practice. Unattributed.)

    If handguns are Evil, certainly so-called "assault weapons" (N.B.: An undefined class of firearms) are much worse, and true assault rifles (which do have a formal definition) far worse than those. How can anybody in Israel or Switzerland be alive?

    Could it possibly be something else is at work, here?

    Here's more food for thought: How did we, as a country, go from this

    http://www.linxnet.com/misc/images/f..._inst-1956.jpg
    (ref: UPDATED! 1956: Amazing Photos of Kids Handling & Learning About Guns in School (Time Magazine)

    to what happens with firearms in U.S. schools today?

    A thoughtful person might conclude that maybe, just maybe, it isn't "the guns."

    Jim
    Okay. You want to do this? Let's go.
    http://wgntv.com/2014/03/07/woman-fa...-thrift-store/

    http://m.dailykos.com/story/2014/03/...-A-GunFAIL-LIX

    http://americablog.com/2013/02/wife-...s-husband.html

    http://www.wtsp.com/story/news/local...ting/10205689/

    Wanna play some more?

    http://m.wyomingnews.com/articles/20...t#.U5c08xnD_qA

    http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4030640/

    Unfortunately, I can do this all day. So stop with the guns don't kill people, because they damn well do.

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    neonworm likes this.
    06-10-2014 11:42 AM
  5. Mooncatt's Avatar
    Unfortunately, I can do this all day. So stop with the guns don't kill people, because they damn well do.
    Then where's the lawsuits against utensil manufactures for making people fat?

    Face it, those stories were not about guns killing people, they were about owners not properly caring for their weapon. Besides, you posted about the high number of gun related deaths in the U.S., so of course there's going to be stories for easy picking. Old Stoneface was showing countries with low numbers according to your pic that have a large number of guns. So his info holds a little more water than yours. Assuming both of yours are true.
    06-10-2014 12:41 PM
  6. msndrstood's Avatar
    Look, we have guns. I'm not totally against guns, but it's ridiculous to say guns don't kill people, because they do.

    Yes, utensils can kill people as well but they have other uses. As do cars, bricks and a rope. But guns are meant to shoot and kill, why else would someone carry one? Oh to protect themselves. By shooting and killing someone. Yes, intent is a factor, but in the links I posted, no one had that intent and yet some victims died. By who or what?

    So what is the answer? More guns? The situation in the US is out of control, something has to be done. I refuse to live in fear of going to the damn grocery store. It isn't Iraq for cripes sake.

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    06-10-2014 12:48 PM
  7. msndrstood's Avatar
    Oh, and I found this graphic. Enough water for you?



    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    06-10-2014 01:10 PM
  8. SteveISU's Avatar
    Look, we have guns. I'm not totally against guns, but it's ridiculous to say guns don't kill people, because they do.

    Yes, utensils can kill people as well but they have other uses. As do cars, bricks and a rope. But guns are meant to shoot and kill, why else would someone carry one? Oh to protect themselves. By shooting and killing someone. Yes, intent is a factor, but in the links I posted, no one had that intent and yet some victims died. By who or what?

    So what is the answer? More guns? The situation in the US is out of control, something has to be done. I refuse to live in fear of going to the damn grocery store. It isn't Iraq for cripes sake.

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3

    I've said it a million times, we need to have a National ID card for firearms (free). Every transaction is subject to a background check, even private sales, and we need to start actually enforcing the laws we have on the books. Add to that that if you are caught in possession of a firearm without said ID, 10yr minimum. If you are in possession of a gun with a filed down serial number, 20yrs.

    The kid who shot that little girl who sang at Obama's inauguration was shot by a gang banger who a year or two previous was arrested for illegal possession of a firearm. He was given probation and let go. If our legal system is willing to stick a gang banger back on the street after he's been caught with a gun already, and then when he finally does use that gun everyone loses it and immediately begin jumping on the anti-gun bandwagon, we've already lost. If our justice system can't foresee a gang banger illegally possessing a gun actually using it one day, we are the most ***** society in modern civilization. People repeatedly keep missing the real problem.
    msndrstood likes this.
    06-10-2014 01:13 PM
  9. SteveISU's Avatar
    Oh, and I found this graphic. Enough water for you?

    http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/11/tu8amu7u.jpg

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3

    Yet Brazil and Colombia have double and triple the number of gun related deaths per 100,000.
    06-10-2014 01:21 PM
  10. msndrstood's Avatar
    Yet Brazil and Colombia have double and triple the number of gun related deaths per 100,000.
    Don't worry, we are catching up quickly. Do you have stats?

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    06-10-2014 01:24 PM
  11. Old Stoneface's Avatar
    ...a witness says that he and the victim were sorting clothes at the store when he emptied a stock with items in it into his hand. A .22 caliber handgun fell out of the sock and accidentally discharged while in his hand.
    Assuming that's what actually happened (ask a cop--people often lie about "accidental" discharges): The gun did not suddenly attain sentience and shoot somebody of its own free will.

    ...a 14-year-old boy who was armed with a handgun that he tossed outside the Grand Avenue Mall, where it discharged without hitting anyone
    And again.

    a 14-year-old boy who was armed with a handgun that he tossed outside the Grand Avenue Mall, where it discharged without hitting anyone
    The cops aren't searching for the rogue firearm, they're searching for the person that weilded it.

    ...Masters leaned forward and a the gun fell out of her pocket and hit the floor.

    The impact with the floor caused the gun to go off, with the bullet striking Cooper in the abdomen, he said.
    Are we seeing a pattern, here?

    Not yet? Okay, some more, then...

    A man shot and killed his best friend, his roommate, by accident.
    Note emphasis (added). Not "A gun shot and killed a man's best friend."

    Wanna play some more?
    Is this a game of "How deep a hole can you dig before you stop digging?" Sure: You're doing well.

    A 17-year-old Cheyenne teen was cited Monday after she dropped her purse, causing the gun she was carrying in it to go off in a local coffee shop.
    Gee, if the gun did it, why didn't they cite the gun?

    An Arizona woman died after her boyfriend accidentally shot off a handgun he had tucked into his waistband Tuesday morning.
    ...
    The man discharged the gun while attempting to remove it...
    Seriously? You're going to blame the gun, an inanimate object, because a man carried it unsafely, and somehow managed to pull the trigger while screwing around with it?

    Unfortunately, I can do this all day.
    I just bet you can. But to what end? Quantity doesn't make up for lack of quality. You've still failed to prove that guns go off by themselves. In each and every story you cited, a human being precipitated the shot being fired.

    So stop with the guns don't kill people, because they damn well do.
    You have failed to prove that. You cannot prove the patently false. Firearms are inanimate objects, therefore they are incapable of acting on their own.

    When I was a small child I would, occasionally, blame something inanimate for some or another bit of ill fortune. (Or, as often, carelessness.) You know: Bump a shin on the coffee table or the like. I can hear my mother's voice, to this very day, admonishing me "The <whatever> didn't do it. It's an inanimate object."

    I eventually learned the lesson. (Well, mostly. I still... *cough*... "talk to" my computers and cars.)

    Jim
    06-10-2014 01:25 PM
  12. msndrstood's Avatar
    You're not going to convince me that guns don't kill. Ever.

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    06-10-2014 01:29 PM
  13. Mooncatt's Avatar
    Look, we have guns. I'm not totally against guns, but it's ridiculous to say guns don't kill people, because they do.
    Ok, then how many people have been shot, not killed, but simply shot by a gun firing independent of operator intent or error? For you to say "guns kill people," then that must mean that somehow a gun is discharging completely on its own. That simply isn't happening, especially with mass shootings. That is, unless we're living in the world of Roger Rabbit, or The Brave Little Toaster, where inanimate objects are alive and have a mind of their own.

    Edit: btw, I didn't say suing because utensils killed. I said for making people fat, as helping feed you is their intended purpose.
    06-10-2014 01:35 PM
  14. Old Stoneface's Avatar
    Yet Brazil and Colombia have double and triple the number of gun related deaths per 100,000.
    I don't keep these cites around, because I don't make an avocation of trying to educate the ineducable about reality, but, somewhere, not long ago, I ran across a world map kind of a thing that revealed there's a dozens of countries that have Draconian restrictions on firearms ownership (by average citizens--royalty and criminals aren't impeded by the law), that have many times the firearms homicide rate as does the U.S.

    But you don't have to leave the U.S. to compare. Look at the U.S. cities with the highest violent crime rates. Then look at their gun laws.

    Some of this stuff might cause a thoughful individual to stop and go "Hmmm..." Less thoughtful individuals... not so much. Apparently.

    Jim
    06-10-2014 01:37 PM
  15. msndrstood's Avatar
    Ok, then how many people have been shot, not killed, but simply shot by a gun firing independent of operator intent or error? For you to say "guns kill people," then that must mean that somehow a gun is discharging completely on its own. That simply isn't happening, especially with mass shootings. That is, unless we're living in the world of Roger Rabbit, or The Brave Little Toaster, where inanimate objects are alive and have a mind of their own.
    You guys can keep defending an inanimate object. My point is they kill and there are too many of them in our society. And your answer? More guns. Yep. That's a plan.

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    palandri likes this.
    06-10-2014 01:38 PM
  16. SteveISU's Avatar
    Don't worry, we are catching up quickly. Do you have stats?

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    List of countries by firearm-related death rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Also, the gun laws in Europe are extremely restrictive. Where here in the US if someone breaks into your house and you shoot them to protect your family, you won't be charged. In some European countries, you're on the hook for murder.
    06-10-2014 01:49 PM
  17. SteveISU's Avatar
    You guys can keep defending an inanimate object. My point is they kill and there are too many of them in our society. And your answer? More guns. Yep. That's a plan.

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    More guns is far from the answer, re-evaluating mental health and who should really be afforded the 2nd amendment right is a conversation that has to be had rationally. If an NRA member wants to fight for a person who has CP to own a gun, they should be shot sight on scene with their own gun.

    First you need to be comfortable with labeling people as "mentally ill", a stigma that our society has tried to get pushed under the rug because everyone should be treated equally. Then you have to determine what psychological disorders and/or cognitive impairments do we bar from owning guns? Depression, anxiety, bi-polar, men with premature evacuation (keep it clean), downs syndrome, autism, schizophrenia, do we administer IQ tests, is it a one time shot or can people be re-evaluated every 5yrs.

    It's a sticky subject, on one hand we have become a society that wants to label every behavior as a disorder. In the other we then fight those who want to categorize those very same people and argue that the disorder doesn't define them.
    06-10-2014 02:02 PM
  18. msndrstood's Avatar
    I'd like everyone to address the far right wing militarization groups in this country. Like the crazies that just killed 2 cops in Vegas. They advocate revolution and anarchy. When did this become mainstream? I know they've been around on the fringes of society but now they are coming out of the shadows because they obviously feel the atmosphere is right. Even the Bundy dude's wife denounces them.

    When you open that door just a crack....

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    06-10-2014 02:06 PM
  19. Mooncatt's Avatar
    You guys can keep defending an inanimate object. My point is they kill and there are too many of them in our society. And your answer? More guns. Yep. That's a plan.
    Not sure if you were addressing me, or speaking generalities when you said my/our/some other group's answer is more guns. If you were addressing me specifically, you're putting words in mutt keyboard because I've never said that. I would promote responsible gun ownership, though.

    They advocate revolution and anarchy. When did this become mainstream?
    When did a relative few nut jobs acting out become mainstream?
    06-10-2014 02:17 PM
  20. msndrstood's Avatar
    Not sure if you were addressing me, or speaking generalities when you said my/our/some other group's answer is more guns. If you were addressing me specifically, you're putting words in mutt keyboard because I've never said that. I would promote responsible gun ownership, though.



    When did a relative few nut jobs acting out become mainstream?
    Not addressing anyone in particular. Not you specifically.

    As for the mainstream... They are in the news on a daily basis, at least in my Newsfeeds (I read numerous sources), that's my definition of mainstream. However, I should clarify it as mainstream consciousness. A rose by any other name, so to speak.

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    06-10-2014 02:30 PM
  21. SteveISU's Avatar
    I'd like everyone to address the far right wing militarization groups in this country. Like the crazies that just killed 2 cops in Vegas. They advocate revolution and anarchy. When did this become mainstream? I know they've been around on the fringes of society but now they are coming out of the shadows because they obviously feel the atmosphere is right. Even the Bundy dude's wife denounces them.

    When you open that door just a crack....

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    When did revolution and anarchy become right wing principles? We have a group in the city of Chicago that have more guns than these "militias" and they don't vote republican.
    06-10-2014 02:41 PM
  22. msndrstood's Avatar
    When did revolution and anarchy become right wing principles? We have a group in the city of Chicago that have more guns than these "militias" and they don't vote republican.
    Because they espouse right wing principles. Anti government, anti everything. You sure can't call them left wing.

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    06-10-2014 02:59 PM
  23. SteveISU's Avatar
    Because they espouse right wing principles. Anti government, anti everything. You sure can't call them left wing.

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    No, they'd likely vote libertarian.
    06-10-2014 03:04 PM
  24. msndrstood's Avatar
    No, they'd likely vote libertarian.
    I don't think they'd vote at all. That would mean you'd have to register to vote, show ID, and that's against their principles.

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    06-10-2014 03:06 PM
  25. Scott7217's Avatar
    You might as well ask me if a wild animal was charging me, would I rather have a set of car keys, a hammer, or a high caliber weapon on me.
    However, I didn't ask you about a wild animal.
    06-10-2014 03:25 PM
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