07-14-2014 07:46 AM
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  1. toober's Avatar
    One question I have is what are the religious backgrounds of all of these shooters. I hear all the time that most of us gun nuts are also bible thumpers, so it would stand to reason that these people would also be active in a church somewhere. On the other hand, if it is found that none of the shooters are religious, we may have a commonality that has been overlooked.

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    06-11-2014 10:33 AM
  2. SteveISU's Avatar
    Even when the Federal Officer is indisputably in the wrong? (I am not saying that's the case in the above-cited situation.)

    If you're a Federal agent and a swarm of armed "wanna-be" vigilantes flock to a given point and start looking down their sights at you, you'd do the same. Go threaten a cop and see if his gun/taser stays in it's holster. Better yet, convince yourself a cop or Federal Marshal (if you want a Federal example) is in the wrong and point your gun at him, see what happens. Most would argue that would be insane to point a gun at a cop, I'd argue the same if you point a gun at any local or federal authority. Furthermore do you think a Judge would EVER state you were justified to point a gun at said cop/agent? We have internal affair review boards and courtrooms to argue abuse of power.

    We have a subset of people in this country who are granted and quite frankly earn certain authority (cops/federal agents/ect) and are bound by the rule of law. We universally recognize that authority, as to ignore it would be anarchy. Most sane people understand there are certain behaviors toward them that are unacceptable and/or illegal. Pointing a gun at them is one of them. Kicking their partner (police dog) would be another.
    06-11-2014 10:50 AM
  3. msndrstood's Avatar
    This complaint from you is rather like the pot calling the kettle black, is it not?


    So people with whom you disagree are "crazed right-wingers" and have a lack of respect, and it was you who responded with "Okay. You want to do this? Let's go. ... Unfortunately, I can do this all day."

    Yet others are the ones being disrespectful?


    If it's rebuttable, I will.


    You don't want a debate, either. You simply want others to agree with your point-of-view.

    I don't want an argument. Nor am I posting to try to convince you of anything. You've already made it abundantly clear your mind is made up and won't be swayed by the facts. (Something I expected as a result of your very first post to this thread, and confirmed by your "You're not going to convince me that guns don't kill. Ever.") I'm simply countering your assertions for the benefit of others.

    And this is certainly no "debate." You haven't made a single supportable assertion, yet. When you could no longer support the assertion that "guns kill" (logically refuted), you switched to diatribes about "far right wing militarization groups" and wild-eyed assertions about people who are concerned about a bloated, over-controlling, spending-gone-wild Federal government. (There's that "respect" thing, again.)
    Let me put it to you simply.

    If you don't speak out when far right wingers are venting their hate about the government, the president etc, the gun violence that has permeated our society, (not other 1st world societies, though, why is that?) then you're part of the problem. Just what is your world view, what is it that would make this country your utopia? I'm curious.

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    06-11-2014 11:02 AM
  4. SteveISU's Avatar
    Let me put it to you simply.

    If you don't speak out when far right wingers are venting their hate about the government, the president etc, the gun violence that has permeated our society, (not other 1st world societies, though, why is that?) then you're part of the problem. Just what is your world view, what is it that would make this country your utopia? I'm curious.

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    Just as an aside. Where is the lefts outrage when Hollywood glorifies gun violence? Liberals soak up their money like a sponge, yet look at the violence they depict. No one bats an eye when Matt Damon is running round the silver screen with assault weapons killing everyone in sight. Those images and their likeness are profited off of 10 fold. But when a kid goes off and stabs 3 people to death, runs over a few, shoots and kills 3 people because he can't get laid, it's "God Damn the NRA". That's all we hear.
    06-11-2014 11:14 AM
  5. msndrstood's Avatar
    Just as an aside. Where is the lefts outrage when Hollywood glorifies gun violence? Liberals soak up their money like a sponge, yet look at the violence they depict. No one bats an eye when Matt Damon is running round the silver screen with assault weapons killing everyone in sight. Those images and their likeness are profited off of 10 fold. But when a kid goes off and stabs 3 people to death, runs over a few, shoots and kills 3 people because he can't get laid, it's "God Damn the NRA". That's all we hear.
    But when John Wayne did it, it was all good?

    Do you play video games? Do watch the same movies you're decrying? If I remember, the Bible is pretty violent. How about talk radio, do you listen to Alex Jones, Glenn Beck, Limbaugh? There are crazy people that will take any excuse, to follow through on their own fantasies because they perceive the threat is growing. It's one thing to watch a movie, it's another to hear real world people advocate the killing of others because they are different, including some elected (or wanna be elected) officials.

    http://firebrandprogressives.org/okl...oned-to-death/

    Tell me what movie prompted this? Oh, it was the Bible?

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    06-11-2014 11:23 AM
  6. SteveISU's Avatar
    But when John Wayne did it, it was all good?

    Do you play video games? Do watch the same movies you're decrying? If I remember, the Bible is pretty violent. How about talk radio, do you listen to Alex Jones, Glenn Beck, Limbaugh? There are crazy people that will take any excuse, to follow through on their own fantasies because they perceive the threat is growing. It's one thing to watch a movie, it's another to hear real world people advocate the killing of others because they are different, including some elected (or wanna be elected) officials.

    Oklahoma Tea Party Candidate Calls For Homosexuals To Be Stoned To Death! (Video) | Firebrand Progressives

    Tell me what movie prompted this? Oh, it was the Bible?

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3

    Liberals out number everyone 100-1 in Hollywood. No I don't watch movies and I don't listen to any of those guys on talk radio.

    We have a culture of violence that you brought up and apparently there is a subset of that culture that is totally immune to responsibility of it. We only wanna talk about the "crazy right wing" and the NRA as the sole purpose of all this. How many folks on the South and Southwest side of the city of Chicago do you think vote Republican? How many of them listen to Glenn Beck?
    06-11-2014 11:28 AM
  7. msndrstood's Avatar
    Liberals our number everyone 100-1 in Hollywood. No I don't watch movies and I don't listen to any of those guys on talk radio.

    We have a culture of violence that you brought up and apparently there is a subset of that culture that is totally immune to responsibility of it. We only wanna talk about the "crazy right wing" and the NRA as the sole purpose of all this. How many folks on the South and Southwest side of the city of Chicago do you think vote Republican? How many of them listen to Glenn Beck?
    Nice deflection. Did you read the article? It might be from the left, but there is no doubt about the guy's beliefs, he said what he said. He proposed deadly violence against a fellow American for his lifestyle choice. I have more articles saved with a similar theme, I'll post if you like. One advocated that parents turn their unruly children over to the state to be put to death. Nice going. I used to be shocked at these people, but I've become numb. Sadly.

    As for Chicago, i have no excuse. I'm glad i don't live there and feel sorry for the people who are stuck there because they have no way out. And to your point, I doubt most of them vote at all.

    I have refrained from posting in Politics for quite awhile. I just finished homeschooling and had some free time and thought I'd jump back in, I've met some great people from both sides in these debates, others not as much. When the debate participants can participate with out flaming others it turns out great and everyone comes out with some new perspective on the subject at hand. We'll see how this goes. ๐Ÿ˜’

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    06-11-2014 11:42 AM
  8. Old Stoneface's Avatar
    Let me put it to you simply.

    If you don't speak out when far right wingers are venting their hate about the government,
    I do not. That is their right under the U.S. Constitution.

    However: When I see anybody assert a falsehood, I do speak out, regardless of political orientation.

    the president
    Don't even get me going on His Royal Ineptness. Seriously.

    etc, the gun violence that has permeated our society,
    "Gun violence..." As if it were the guns, rather than the people wielding them, committing the violence.

    We cannot have a rational discussion while you continue to blame on inanimate objects the failings of people. Nor will the problem ever be solved. Take away their guns and such people will find different inanimate objects with which to conduct their mayhem.

    (not other 1st world societies, though, why is that?)
    No offence intended: But you do not know of what you speak. They have the crime and violence. True, not as much of it is committed with firearms, but they have it, nonetheless. In fact: The U.K. has a much higher incidence of home invasions than does the U.S.

    then you're part of the problem.
    I guess I'm part of the problem, then.

    Just what is your world view, what is it that would make this country your utopia? I'm curious.
    Whether one subscribes to any particular religious doctrines or not, rational people concede humans are imperfect, thus any human endeavour is bound to be imperfect. Thus utopia is unattainable.

    Let us be more realistic: What would make the U.S. approach as closely as possible as fair a society as possible? Simple: Minimal goverment. Maximum individual freedom.

    I'm a libertarian. (It's been my experience that, to left-wing "liberals," that is indistinguishable from radical right-wing conservativism.)
    06-11-2014 12:33 PM
  9. Scott7217's Avatar
    So guns are okay as long as they are the number and types approved by you?
    If people are unhappy with the selection and quantity of firearms allowed by law, they can vote for representatives who can change the law. They can also petition the courts, which has been quite effective in the US for overturning various weapon bans.
    06-11-2014 12:43 PM
  10. msndrstood's Avatar
    I do not. That is their right under the U.S. Constitution.

    However: When I see anybody assert a falsehood, I do speak out, regardless of political orientation.


    Don't even get me going on His Royal Ineptness. Seriously.


    "Gun violence..." As if it were the guns, rather than the people wielding them, committing the violence.

    We cannot have a rational discussion while you continue to blame on inanimate objects the failings of people. Nor will the problem ever be solved. Take away their guns and such people will find different inanimate objects with which to conduct their mayhem.


    No offence intended: But you do not know of what you speak. They have the crime and violence. True, not as much of it is committed with firearms, but they have it, nonetheless. In fact: The U.K. has a much higher incidence of home invasions than does the U.S.


    I guess I'm part of the problem, then.


    Whether one subscribes to any particular religious doctrines or not, rational people concede humans are imperfect, thus any human endeavour is bound to be imperfect. Thus utopia is unattainable.

    Let us be more realistic: What would make the U.S. approach as closely as possible as fair a society as possible? Simple: Minimal goverment. Maximum individual freedom.

    I'm a libertarian. (It's been my experience that, to left-wing "liberals," that is indistinguishable from radical right-wing conservativism.)
    I don't know of what i speak? And what gives you that impression? I probably read more in a day than you do in a year. I've have read at least 30 articles today and it's only 1:30. Of course there is violence in other countries, but not gun violence.

    You wonder why I'm stuck on violence caused by an inanimate object, because that inanimate object can 1) kill a person up to a mile away (rifle) 2) are readily available, legally and illegally 3) can kill multiple unsuspecting people from a distance with no way to defend themselves (I'm thinking of the DC sniper) 4) are used for intimidation via open carry loaded long guns amid the mantle of 2nd amendment rights (what about the right to live without intimidation and fear that the gun wielder isn't a good guy with a gun who just walked in the restaurant where I have my daughter and 4 grand children eating lunch) Concealed carry is no better. No guns in restaurants, stores, and other public places of business.

    I don't understand where this gun culture came from. 10, 20, 30 years ago this was never an issue, the only thing that i see is different is that there is a black Democrat in the White House, because this started with the Tea Party rallies in 2009/2010.

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    06-11-2014 12:50 PM
  11. Scott7217's Avatar
    I don't understand where this gun culture came from.
    I would suspect that it was always there, and we are seeing it more often because of the popularity of the internet. You have Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, forums, chat rooms, blogs, and other ways to spread different viewpoints around the globe.
    06-11-2014 03:51 PM
  12. Scott7217's Avatar
    Liberals out number everyone 100-1 in Hollywood.
    If there are 100 liberals for every 1 conservative in Hollywood, and people want to support the 1 conservative, whom should they support?
    06-11-2014 04:05 PM
  13. msndrstood's Avatar
    I would suspect that it was always there, and we are seeing it more often because of the popularity of the internet. You have Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, forums, chat rooms, blogs, and other ways to spread different viewpoints around the globe.
    I'm talking about the mass killings though. I've always read 2 newspapers a day since I was 9. I've always been on top of world events. I was such an information nerd, I would read the encyclopedia. ๐Ÿ˜จ

    I've heard that argument, but for me, being informed isn't new or due to the Internet. The Internet makes it easier to crosscheck and verify information though, I'll admit.

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    06-11-2014 04:10 PM
  14. Mooncatt's Avatar
    what about the right to live without intimidation and fear that the gun wielder isn't a good guy with a gun who just walked in the restaurant where I have my daughter and 4 grand children eating lunch
    If you're intimidated by someone minding their own business with a gun in a holster, then that's on you. It's the ones that come in with guns a blazing, or drawing them from under their clothing without cause that you should be worried about.

    No guns in restaurants, stores, and other public places of business.
    When you can convince the would be killers of that, then we can discuss this option. Last I checked, pretty much every mass shooting happened where guns are banned. How do you addressed that?

    As far as I'm concerned, the no guns allowed signs may as well be replaced with fish in a barrel signs
    A895 and Scott7217 like this.
    06-11-2014 04:35 PM
  15. msndrstood's Avatar
    If you're intimidated by someone minding their own business with a gun in a holster, then that's on you. It's the ones that come in with guns a blazing, or drawing them from under their clothing without cause that you should be worried about.



    When you can convince the would be killers of that, then we can discuss this option. Last I checked, pretty much every mass shooting happened where guns are banned. How do you addressed that?

    As far as I'm concerned, the no guns allowed signs may as well be replaced with fish in a barrel signs
    I guess the intimidation factor can be ignored. Sorry. For me, it's a big deal. Guys with guns walk in while I'm at lunch or dinner and the establishment does nothing, I will get up and leave. I'm sick of being intimidated by people who want to show off their weapons for no other reason because they can.

    And, I'll take full responsibility for it 'being on me'. I live in this country too, and I really am sick and tired of all of it.

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    06-11-2014 04:42 PM
  16. anon8126715's Avatar
    I would arrest every single one of them. If you are stupid enough to point a gun at a federal officer, you deserve jail and/or to be shot.
    There is hope after all.
    06-11-2014 04:56 PM
  17. anon8126715's Avatar
    If you're intimidated by someone minding their own business with a gun in a holster, then that's on you. It's the ones that come in with guns a blazing, or drawing them from under their clothing without cause that you should be worried about.
    I'm willing to bet that you'd feel differently if it was a guy of a certain ethnic background. Here's one for you, what if you DID feel threatened, and shot at this person under the "Stand your ground" laws, would you be at fault? I mean you felt threatened right?
    06-11-2014 04:59 PM
  18. Mooncatt's Avatar
    Guys with guns walk in while I'm at lunch or dinner and the establishment does nothing, I will get up and leave. I'm sick of being intimidated by people who want to show off their weapons for no other reason because they can.
    Getting up and leaving because you don't want to be intimidated is you being intimidated in and of itself.

    I'm willing to bet that you'd feel differently if it was a guy of a certain ethnic background. Here's one for you, what if you DID feel threatened, and shot at this person under the "Stand your ground" laws, would you be at fault? I mean you felt threatened right?
    I'm going to choose not to address your racist remarks.
    06-11-2014 05:15 PM
  19. msndrstood's Avatar
    Getting up and leaving because you don't want to be intimidated is you being intimidated in and of itself.


    I'm going to choose not to address your racist remarks.
    Safety of my grandchildren and self preservation come first. If you can't acknowledge the intimidation factor in all of this, then there is nothing more for us to discuss.

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    06-11-2014 05:18 PM
  20. Mooncatt's Avatar
    Safety of my grandchildren and self preservation come first. If you can't acknowledge the intimidation factor in all of this, then there is nothing more for us to discuss.

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    If someone walked in with a hoodie or hat pulled low, a high collar, and otherwise trying to hide his identity while also looking figity while carrying a holstered pistol, then I'd hold the door for you on my way out too. But if someone is only open carrying while not trying to hide his face or anything, I'm not going to worry. That person knows all eyes will be on him and security cameras likely got a good shot of his face. That's not someone I'd be concerned with shooting the place up.
    06-11-2014 05:30 PM
  21. msndrstood's Avatar
    If someone walked in with a hoodie or hat pulled low, a high collar, and otherwise trying to hide his identity while also looking figity while carrying a holstered pistol, then I'd hold the door for you on my way out too. But if someone is only open carrying while not trying to hide his face or anything, I'm not going to worry. That person knows all eyes will be on him and security cameras likely got a good shot of his face. That's not someone I'd be concerned with shooting the place up.
    Tsk, tsk aren't you playing the race card on that one? You just declined to address TXGTOU when he mentioned ethnic traits, everyone knows a hoody is associated with Trayvon Martin.

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    06-11-2014 05:35 PM
  22. Mooncatt's Avatar
    Tsk, tsk aren't you playing the race card on that one? You just declined to address TXGTOU when he mentioned ethnic traits, everyone knows a hoody is associated with Trayvon Martin.

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    How about you read all of my post. I didn't just say hoodie, and that's not just a black clothing item.
    06-11-2014 05:42 PM
  23. msndrstood's Avatar
    How about you read all of my post. I didn't just say hoodie, and that's not just a black clothing item.
    I did read it all, but that stood out like a sore thumb, so I had to mention it.

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    06-11-2014 05:44 PM
  24. anon8126715's Avatar
    I'm going to choose not to address your racist remarks.
    So I'm guessing you'd have a different reaction if a member of a race different than yours was toting around a high caliber weapon in public? Considering most mass murderers that go crazy are some of the same ones that want to walk around in public with their assault rifles, I can see how someone would be nervous by them walking around armed.
    06-11-2014 05:55 PM
  25. anon8126715's Avatar
    If someone walked in with a hoodie or hat pulled low, a high collar, and otherwise trying to hide his identity while also looking figity while carrying a holstered pistol, then I'd hold the door for you on my way out too. But if someone is only open carrying while not trying to hide his face or anything, I'm not going to worry. That person knows all eyes will be on him and security cameras likely got a good shot of his face. That's not someone I'd be concerned with shooting the place up.
    And there we have it.....So as long as they look like you, you're ok with them carrying their gun around, but as soon as they fit a certain stereotype, you're "intimidated" by them.....
    06-11-2014 05:57 PM
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