07-14-2014 07:46 AM
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  1. kilofoxtrot's Avatar
    I never left anything out. I posted sections from the article, and the link so everyone could read the article for themselves. I believe is mentioned in the forum rules not to copy entire articles from other sources to ensure that the originating author gets full credit for the article.
    True.... my apologies. You are right.

    I do think people need to read the article. I think people are jumping to conclusions that are based on paranoia and non-fact.
    Aquila and Live2ride883 like this.
    03-06-2013 07:26 PM
  2. Live2ride883's Avatar
    True.... my apologies. You are right.

    I do think people need to read the article. I think people are jumping to conclusions that are based on paranoia and non-fact.
    Thanks for the apology, and don't give it another thought. However by adding the "He won again...get over it again" comment in bold no less. I get the impression that you think this is an Obama specific issue and that's how you want everyone else to see it. It's not I wouldn't care who was/is in office if they released this statement I would be just as outraged as I am now. If I have an Obama specific issue I usually put it in the "impeached" thread. I felt this issue was important enough to have a thread of it's own.

    I agree that everyone participating in this discussion needs to read it before commenting.

    I think this issue/statement alone should cause a lot of fear and paranoia, there should not be ANY situation where it is legal to use drone strikes on american citizens on american soil.

    I don't like drone strikes regardless of where they are used, they remove the "human" element from war. I'm sure everyone has heard the saying "war is he.ll" well it's supposed to be. War is supposed to be that last resort after all other options have been tried, failed, and tried again. War is destruction not only of the target, but of the mind and spirit/soul. When you are watching that activity on a video screen from an air conditioned trailer on another continent, or in another country it becomes too unreal, it's like playing a video game, or watching a movie.

    A pilot in a fighter/bomber would have a better chance of identifying that the targeted individuals are actually on sight than someone watching a video screen. Also is the drone targeting system as accurate as the one used in our fighters?


    Awhile back when I was in the Navy my dad came on board for what they called a tiger cruise. He flew to Spain and sailed back to the US on the ship with me, it was to give our family members an idea of what our daily lives were like at sea. There were tours, and other activities that were set up for our families, one of these events was a live fire demo of a missile from an F16 Tomcat. The ship was towing a target approximately 300 yards behind us on a raft. The pilot had no problem hitting the target on the first run, had this been an actual combat mission I doubt there would have been much collateral damage.
    03-06-2013 10:16 PM
  3. Live2ride883's Avatar
    Can we use the Patriot Act as an example of stripping a right from the people?
    The Patriot Act is an exercise in obscenity.
    Aquila likes this.
    03-06-2013 10:18 PM
  4. Timelessblur's Avatar
    To me this entire thing as turned into yet another political show of force to try to get their way.

    To me this is what the GOP has turned into it. a bunch of cry babies abusing what ever power they got. This is just to try to swing votes. They do not give a rates *** about the answer.
    Aquila and klokateer123 like this.
    03-06-2013 11:03 PM
  5. Live2ride883's Avatar
    To me this entire thing as turned into yet another political show of force to try to get their way.

    To me this is what the GOP has turned into it. a bunch of cry babies abusing what ever power they got. This is just to try to swing votes. They do not give a rates *** about the answer.

    Please read the article if you haven't already, and post your opinion on the topic instead of just coming in and making pointless comments. Or if this is your opinion on the topic of legal drone strikes on US citizens on US soil, I for one would be interested in reading the information (links) you used to form this opinion.
    03-06-2013 11:23 PM
  6. Aquila's Avatar
    Please read the article if you haven't already, and post your opinion on the topic instead of just coming in and making pointless comments. Or if this is your opinion on the topic of legal drone strikes on US citizens on US soil, I for one would be interested in reading the information (links) you used to form this opinion.
    I somewhat agree with the position that this is in the media for political reasons, not because of the fight for liberty. They only thing they're really fighting is the legality of using it on US soil against citizens, not the rest of the myriad of issues.
    03-07-2013 12:08 AM
  7. Live2ride883's Avatar
    I somewhat agree with the position that this is in the media for political reasons, not because of the fight for liberty. They only thing they're really fighting is the legality of using it on US soil against citizens, not the rest of the myriad of issues.
    But they have to start somewhere, and I think this is a pretty good place to start. We have a long way to go to restore our constitution, and the first step is that line in the sand that says this far and no further. Then you push back, and retake ground that was taken or surrendered by the last person.

    I don't think that post contributed to anything but the post count for this thread.
    03-07-2013 12:22 AM
  8. Live2ride883's Avatar
    New Poll Finds 57 Percent of Americans Think Obama's Assassination Program Is Unconstitutional

    New Poll Finds 57 Percent of Americans Think Obama's Assassination Program Is Unconstitutional - Hit & Run : Reason.com
    03-07-2013 12:28 AM
  9. Aquila's Avatar
    New Poll Finds 57 Percent of Americans Think Obama's Assassination Program Is Unconstitutional

    New Poll Finds 57 Percent of Americans Think Obama's Assassination Program Is Unconstitutional - Hit & Run : Reason.com
    I'm surprised that number isn't much higher. I would have expected 90%+. I do think it's weird they think of it as "Obama's" program. The first reports of drones being used were 2007, prior to Obama's presidential campaign announcement. I do think he's accelerated it, but it might be more accurate to think of it as the DOD's policy, or Mr. Cheney.
    03-07-2013 12:37 AM
  10. Imnutsnj's Avatar
    It should be 100% of Americans find this unacceptable. Won't be long before they want cameras in our homes.

    Sent from my Jelly Bean flavored HTC DROID DNA
    03-07-2013 01:24 AM
  11. Aquila's Avatar
    It should be 100% of Americans find this unacceptable. Won't be long before they want cameras in our homes.

    Sent from my Jelly Bean flavored HTC DROID DNA
    We gave them camera's in our homes. Phones, computers, TV's, Kinect. With the Galaxy S4 your phone knows when you're looking at it and at what angle, to facilitate automatic screen rotation and screen on functions, etc. We gave them the tools already, it's just a matter of access.
    03-07-2013 01:33 AM
  12. Imnutsnj's Avatar
    We gave them the tools already, it's just a matter of access.
    And it won't be long before that access becomes required!

    Sent from my Jelly Bean flavored HTC DROID DNA
    03-07-2013 01:49 AM
  13. metz65's Avatar
    It should be 100% of Americans find this unacceptable. Won't be long before they want cameras in our homes.

    Sent from my Jelly Bean flavored HTC DROID DNA
    Agreed everyone SHOULD find it unacceptable. The patriot act, the ability to use drones on US. soil with no trial, it's wrong. It's not about Obama, it's not about Bush, it's about an entire government that seems to move farther and farther away from wanting to serve the people and instead decide amongst themselves what we need.

    I don't care what kind of phone you have, that's not how I judge someone's worth or intelligence.
    03-07-2013 02:31 AM
  14. Aquila's Avatar
    Agreed everyone SHOULD find it unacceptable. The patriot act, the ability to use drones on US. soil with no trial, it's wrong. It's not about Obama, it's not about Bush, it's about an entire government that seems to move farther and farther away from wanting to serve the people and instead decide amongst themselves what we need.

    I don't care what kind of phone you have, that's not how I judge someone's worth or intelligence.
    Many people are misinformed and believe this is necessary to defend against terrorists. Others make a value call on safety vs liberty and choose safety. I disagree with their choice, because I see it as the illusion of safety vs the illusion of liberty, and therefor the answer to the wrong question.

    If we continue to elect these representatives into this existing system, we should expect nothing to change in our favor. We're doing nothing differently as a society, which tells them it's okay to do what they are doing. At minimum there are no consequences, at maximum we agree and encourage it.
    Imnutsnj, metz65 and Live2ride883 like this.
    03-07-2013 04:25 AM
  15. Aquila's Avatar
    Here is the most telling video of all about this subject, well worth the six minutes. I agree 1000% with what this guy says on this issue. The Young Turks are incredibly Progressive, usually support the Democrats. I watch a few of their videos for perspective, and on Constitutional issues, the "Progressive" stance is often more Conservative than the republican stance. Here's what the Progressives have to say about the President and Democratic support of this policy:

    Live2ride883 likes this.
    03-07-2013 04:39 AM
  16. Imnutsnj's Avatar
    Many people are misinformed and believe this is necessary to defend against terrorists. Others make a value call on safety vs liberty and choose safety. I disagree with their choice, because I see it as the illusion of safety vs the illusion of liberty, and therefor the answer to the wrong question.

    If we continue to elect these representatives into this existing system, we should expect nothing to change in our favor. We're doing nothing differently as a society, which tells them it's okay to do what they are doing. At minimum there are no consequences, at maximum we agree and encourage it.
    And this is regardless of which political party you support. Corporations are the ones running this country and no one else. Does FOX News or MSNBC show news anymore? NO!!! They are 24 hour political advertisements, nothing more! Do your research, check out news from sources other than the USA, check out channels like FreeSpeech TV or Link TV, where there is no political spin for one party or the other. We have entirely too many resources at our disposal to remain so misinformed. We all talk and moan about what's going on, but no one does anything about it, all it takes to get started is to just do your research. Remember the 99%? What happened to that?

    Sent telepathically from my padded cell via an HTC DROID DNA
    03-07-2013 05:05 AM
  17. Live2ride883's Avatar
    Here is the most telling video of all about this subject, well worth the six minutes. I agree 1000% with what this guy says on this issue. The Young Turks are incredibly Progressive, usually support the Democrats. I watch a few of their videos for perspective, and on Constitutional issues, the "Progressive" stance is often more Conservative than the republican stance. Here's what the Progressives have to say about the President and Democratic support of this policy:

    I admit that my last remark concerning the gun control video you posted was somewhat off the cuff as they say. This video hits everything I was trying to communicate in the OP, and I thank you for sharing it.
    Aquila likes this.
    03-07-2013 09:03 AM
  18. kilofoxtrot's Avatar
    Can someone please tell me where assassination and lack of due process is derived from Holder's letter to Paul?

    I want a quote.... a specific quote.

    As far as I am concerned, Paul is using the floor of the senate to campaign for his next election. Appealing to his partisian base.

    I remember Mrs. (I Can See Russia From My House) Palin equating "end of life" counseling as a "death panel". Paul is doing the same thing and using his position in the senate for political gain. Plain and Simple.



    Anyone see a pattern here with the conservative orthodoxy in this country? Fear Mongering, Disinformation and Vilification of all who stand in their way.

    "Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, IT IS THE LEADERS of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is TELL THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY COUNTRY."

    Hermann Goering
    Aquila and msndrstood like this.
    03-07-2013 09:13 AM
  19. dmmarck's Avatar
    Can someone please tell me where assassination and lack of due process is derived from Holder's letter to Paul?

    I want a quote.... a specific quote.

    As far as I am concerned, Paul is using the floor of the senate to campaign for his next election. Appealing to his partisian base.

    I remember Mrs. (I Can See Russia From My House) Palin equating "end of life" counseling as a "death panel". Paul is doing the same thing and using his position in the senate for political gain. Plain and Simple.



    Anyone see a pattern here with the conservative orthodoxy in this country? Fear Mongering, Disinformation and Vilification of all who stand in their way.

    "Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, IT IS THE LEADERS of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is TELL THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY COUNTRY."

    Hermann Goering
    Did you read the white paper?

    If you haven't, here it is:

    http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/se...hite_Paper.pdf

    As a general matter, any time due process rights (like a trial) are foregone, a government killing is considered to be extra-judicial. The greatest example of such extra-judicial killings, at least in "modern" times, is Israel's retaliation against the Munich assassins. Including a waiter in Lillehammer who had nothing to do with it.
    Aquila likes this.
    03-07-2013 09:14 AM
  20. kilofoxtrot's Avatar
    I read the white paper.... it has nothing to do with using drones against citizens on us soil, as is the topic of this thread.

    If you want to link the two, then be my guest. I think there is a difference when a citizen willfully becomes an enemy combatant on foreign soil. You may not.
    03-07-2013 09:38 AM
  21. dmmarck's Avatar
    I read the white paper.... it has nothing to do with using drones against citizens on us soil, as is the topic of this thread.

    If you want to link the two, then be my guest. I think there is a difference when a citizen willfully becomes an enemy combatant on foreign soil. You may not.
    Well there are a few allusions to such - "outside the area of active hostilities" being one. The issue that most are drawing from this is that the logic can be applied and adapted very easily to citizens on US soil. Precedent is key here, and thus the questions that were asked last night focus on getting a stance on that particular issue.

    That being said, it doesn't really matter - if you're a US citizen, you're a US citizen regardless of physical location. The bigger legal issue is the complete dismantling of the legal meaning behind imminent. That's more alarming to me than anything else.
    03-07-2013 09:43 AM
  22. kilofoxtrot's Avatar
    So, for instance, I am a retired military person, I embrace fanatical Islam and decide to join jihad with the Taliban. Due to my military experience, they make me a squad or some other type of front line leader.

    Are my rights as a u.s. citizen violated if I am killed in routine combat? Are my rights as a u.s. citizen violated if a sniper is specifically assigned to kill me because of my leadership role?
    Aquila likes this.
    03-07-2013 09:52 AM
  23. dmmarck's Avatar
    So, for instance, I am a retired military person, I embrace fanatical Islam and decide to join jihad with the Taliban. Due to my military experience, they make me a squad or some other type of front line leader.

    Are my rights as a u.s. citizen violated if I am killed in routine combat? Are my rights as a u.s. citizen violated if a sniper is specifically assigned to kill me because of my leadership role with my frontline role in combat?
    Depends on how you're classified. The distinctions are absolutely razor thin in some regards, which makes it even more terrifying.

    Also, since we're getting dangerously close to ethical considerations, I need to make a giant disclaimer:

    Anything said by me in this thread or related threads is not to be considered legal advice, nor should it be relied upon by any in lieu of such express advice. It is merely my own personal opinion, not professional advice, opinion, or guidance.
    03-07-2013 09:54 AM
  24. kilofoxtrot's Avatar
    Depends on how you're classified.
    "That being said, it doesn't really matter - if you're a US citizen, you're a US citizen regardless of physical location"
    Aquila likes this.
    03-07-2013 10:05 AM
  25. dmmarck's Avatar
    "That being said, it doesn't really matter - if you're a US citizen, you're a US citizen regardless of physical location"
    Not sure if you tried some underlining or whatnot, but also, this:

    Barack Obama 'has authority to use drone strikes to kill Americans on US soil' - Telegraph

    Enemy combatant classification and the like will change the analysis. I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of that stuff, but no one does .
    Aquila likes this.
    03-07-2013 10:06 AM
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