07-14-2014 07:46 AM
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  1. cordoni's Avatar
    Fair point I might not be American, a few mates are but I am not. However I have question, in all seriousness why do you feel the need to have a gun? (and don't say its a right due to the constitution or amendment)
    Here, good police response time is 9 minutes. In rural areas, it can be over an hour.

    A lot can happen in a violent encounter in 9 minutes. Some of us prefer to protect ourselves and families instead of being at risk of serious injury or death at the hands of a violent criminal while waiting for police to arrive.


    Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
    The Hustleman, tybo31316 and aggie like this.
    04-25-2013 07:02 AM
  2. llamabreath's Avatar
    It's a right, due to the Constitution or amendment.
    04-25-2013 07:22 AM
  3. Aquila's Avatar
    It's a right, due to the Constitution or amendment.
    The Constitution doesn't give Rights to anyone. It instructs the Federal government what Rights the People already possess, as limitations on their power. If they scrapped the Constitution tomorrow, you'd still have every right enumerated within it, and then some.
    cordoni, bigdaddytee and BrockS. like this.
    04-25-2013 07:33 AM
  4. Tall Mike 2145's Avatar
    An example of what NothingIsTrue is talking about can be found in the Declaration of Independence:

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. [emphasis added]
    Aquila, bigdaddytee and BrockS. like this.
    04-25-2013 07:51 AM
  5. llamabreath's Avatar
    It's a right, due to the Constitution or amendment.
    Um, I said that facetiously, due to the request three posts previous to mine.
    Aquila likes this.
    04-25-2013 10:01 AM
  6. Tall Mike 2145's Avatar
    The concept of "getting our rights from government" or "from the law" was the very thing the Founding Fathers sought to avoid. Any government that "gives you rights" can take them away, because they're not really "yours" as such; they are just "on loan". What Obama said about the Constitution being a bill of "negative rights" is actually correct in the sense that the U.S. Government has no rights and no authority to do anything whatsoever except for what the Constitution says it does. For example, the Government has no intrinsic right to maintain armed forces, or to tax, or to even establish laws. These are powers granted to it.
    Aquila likes this.
    04-25-2013 10:02 AM
  7. Fairclough's Avatar
    Guns aren't great equalizers.... it would be equal if no one had access guns. I do agree with the law's they are suggesting are not perfect, Personally I think America should adopt our policy on buying guns. The background checks are very very strict here. Police takes ages here as well! However we have less killings due to less guns! I say guns aren't good equalizers because if you allow guns it then gives the other person to a chance to have a gun and use it against someone which would be more unequal. However a knife vs a non knife is more equal then a gun vs nothing. Anyways If someone came into my house with a knife im pretty sure a metal police torch would put up a bloody good fight - and if you do "accidently" hit the person with it you cannot be prosecuted for murder as its just an item to "check" if someone is around.
    jdbii likes this.
    04-25-2013 06:44 PM
  8. Alex trebek's Avatar
    They should ban guns altogether! now let the hate begin.
    Men love to prove their strength, a gun doesn't show this but cowardly you are standing behind it! The reason most people including myself are against gun is due to the small demographic which are psychotic enough to shoot another individual. The case can be argued its not the gun which kills but the man, its true we don't see car manufacturing companies get lobbied every time a drunk drive kills... its the person. Restricting access allows a lowered risk. In my own country, Australia, in some states u/25 year olds cannot drive high powered cars for this fact. In every state you have to extensive applications to be allowed a gun and if you don't access the fire range or have a lock up the gun or anything like this it is confiscated... simple as that.No questions asked. Very few people (5%) have access to firearms - besides farmers... The law is so extreme that a Air Soft gun is a Category A firearm - which means its dealt with the same a shot gun. It takes a licensed paintball gun facility 3 months of customs checks to allow their gun through once its on Australian soil.In tern we never has these mass killings, the loss of lives because simply no one has access to these guns. An angry boy with a fist or a knife is a lot easier to stop then one with a semi automatic rifle... if you ban them altogether the playing field it even, rather then allowing everyone to have guns to make it even. I believe the US should go beyond this and do a gun recall like they did in Australia and start crushing guns. Their laws should be that strict so people like this man in this Video cannot produce them at home! Yes violence always occurs and if someone wants to kill they will, but removing the tool makes it a lot more difficult and lowers the numbers harmed.

    In short its harder to kill with a fist then with a trigger, remove the trigger altogether.
    I'm not trying to be rude, but this is idiotic. Criminals will buy guns on the black market either way, and if you look at cities like Chicago and Dc, you will see my point. When average individuals who know how to use a gun and have one with them lots of crime is stopped. Why leave the good people unarmed? Background checks for mentally ill people I can see, but banning guns outright is idiotic, as is banning standard size magazines.

    Sent from my HTC Rhyme
    bigdaddytee likes this.
    04-25-2013 06:57 PM
  9. Mooncatt's Avatar
    Guns aren't great equalizers.... it would be equal if no one had access guns.
    Tell that to a victim of attack that was too physically weak to fight off an assailant.
    The Hustleman and bigdaddytee like this.
    04-25-2013 08:49 PM
  10. llamabreath's Avatar
    All I have to do is spit on an intruder and they're gone.
    Aquila and TeritorialDemon like this.
    04-25-2013 09:09 PM
  11. Nate456's Avatar
    All I have to do is spit on an intruder and they're gone.
    Is that you Chuck Norris?

    Sent from Curiosity on Mars.
    TeritorialDemon likes this.
    04-25-2013 09:50 PM
  12. jdbii's Avatar
    Criminals will buy guns on the black market either way, and if you look at cities like Chicago and Dc, you will see my point.
    I never found this to be a very convincing argument becasue gangbangers already buy their guns on the black market.
    04-25-2013 11:48 PM
  13. Aquila's Avatar
    I never found this to be a very convincing argument becasue gangbangers already buy their guns on the black market.
    I wonder how it worked out in the UK and in Japan when they passed their laws. I also think it's silly to assume that the only way we can fight back against crime is by using violence. The simple fact that there is so much fear and misinformation about societal issues like this indicate a dire need for education. Obviously people can survive running around afraid of each other all the time, but who would want to?
    GadgetGator likes this.
    04-25-2013 11:50 PM
  14. jdbii's Avatar
    I've heard the UK police officers don't carry firearms (don't know about Japan). About half the reason why I support the 2nd Amendment in some form is because the police in the USA are so heavily armed. It is like we live in a paramilitary state. It is nothing like 30 years ago. Every single law officer, even one-cop towns, now wears body armor and seems to have a swat kit in their trunk. If the police patrolled the streets without weapons in the USA, I'd be the first one to consider Australia, UK's, or Japan's example, or at least do away with hand guns.

    (I should edit and add that I think law enforcement officers have a right to protect themselves and I have nothing but respect and admiration for them. I am aware they are in the line of fire protecting the public. It is just so different than when I was kid).
    Fairclough likes this.
    04-26-2013 12:05 AM
  15. return_0's Avatar
    I've heard the UK police officers don't carry firearms (don't know about Japan). About half the reason why I support the 2nd Amendment in some form is because the police in the USA are so heavily armed. It is like we live in a paramilitary state. It is nothing like 30 years ago. Every single law officer, even one-cop towns, now wears body armor and seems to have a swat kit in their trunk. If the police patrolled the streets without weapons in the USA, I'd be the first one to consider Australia, UK's, or Japan's example, or at least do away with hand guns.
    If there weren't guns available to murderers, the police wouldn't need to be armed. It's a vicious cycle.

    Sent from my pure Google Nexus 4 using Android Central Forums
    TeritorialDemon likes this.
    04-26-2013 12:39 AM
  16. jdbii's Avatar
    If there weren't guns available to murderers, the police wouldn't need to be armed. It's a vicious cycle.

    Sent from my pure Google Nexus 4 using Android Central Forums
    Agreed........I'm glad you made that point. I edited my post.
    04-26-2013 12:41 AM
  17. llamabreath's Avatar
    I think the issue isn't about guns, but our culture. Then again, that would require parents actually being parents and raising kids right so they don't grow up to be in gangs and drug addicts (where I think most gun violence stems from in the problem areas like Chicago). Not to mention all the outside stuff kids are exposed to because parents don't censor what the kids has access to.

    No, that would be too difficult. They would rather the government step in and give them a feel good false sense of security by banning guns.
    This.

    Like said before, banning guns won't solve doo doo. Illegal drugs are illegal ( ), murder's illegal, rape's illegal, incest's illegal, kidnapping's illegal, blowing people up is illegal... how's all that working out?

    I thought so.
    TeritorialDemon likes this.
    04-26-2013 06:27 AM
  18. Fairclough's Avatar
    Actually no arms here is working just fine. Yes there is obviously is a black market but armed offences are a lot lower!

    Sent from my Nexus 4 using Android Central Forums
    04-26-2013 06:52 AM
  19. Fairclough's Avatar
    Drugs is highly inelastic so legalising it doesn't affect demand a great deal but reduces the price by 95%.

    Weapons I believe if illegal would be high elastic. As for the comment about rape bombs etc we see less bombs in houses then guns. We see a lot less bombings then gub massacres... Why there easier to get your hands on.

    Sent from my Nexus 4 using Android Central Forums
    04-26-2013 06:58 AM
  20. llamabreath's Avatar
    The point is, if somebody wants to do something, they'll find a way to do it.

    Something about a will and a way comes to mind.
    TeritorialDemon likes this.
    04-26-2013 07:03 AM
  21. llamabreath's Avatar
    ... Which brings us back around to cultural differences, and why there's less gun violence where you come from.
    04-26-2013 07:28 AM
  22. Fairclough's Avatar
    I'd be the first one to consider Australia, UK's, or Japan's example, or at least do away with hand guns.

    (I should edit and add that I think law enforcement officers have a right to protect themselves and I have nothing but respect and admiration for them. I am aware they are in the line of fire protecting the public. It is just so different than when I was kid).
    Away with handguns is what we do! My family friends their handguns got taken away for not going to the range enough - which is fair enough if you're not using it. Their shot guns weren't taken as their not concealable. However in general our guns laws you need to jump through hoops to get them in the first place and prove you have a genuine need to have them - e.g if your a farmer you need a shotgun to kill injured cattle while in the metropolitan area your chances are slim.

    Agreed, Law enforces should be armed to protect themselves but they are providing arms on the street. Our police are a bit more armed than the british and under investigation all the time - like the an police arms hold worker got arrested for bringing guns home last month. Our police are armed but only with a taser gun / some times with a handgun as well. However to deal with a possible armed person we have a TRG (Tactical Response Group - basically swat).

    I guess it is fair to have a group heavily armed in which in our case is the TRG they are equipped with 4x4's, riot tanks, Jet Boats (they are situated on the river) and automatics rifles + obviously more. You hardly see them around but when you do it's not pretty - even if someone hits the hood of their car thinking its a normal 4x4 (seen it done and its not a pretty response). Then we another another group, which is the SAS but thats a special forces unit which is more for the military.
    04-26-2013 07:36 AM
  23. Live2ride883's Avatar
    I have had a conceal carry permit in the state of Ohio for a number of years, and as I have stated in other threads I never leave home without my sidearm. In some cases I will carry openly since Ohio laws do permit that. Recently I was out at a state park area on the bike going mushroom hunting. I parked the bike next to a family in a silver minivan, the little kids were riding their bicycles, and big wheels in the parking lot. As I was putting my vest in the saddlebag the young father came over and he voiced some concerns about if my weapon was loaded etc. I told him it was and he asked why I felt the need to carry in a state park type area. I told him that I carry just about everywhere I go simply for my own protection, and for the protection of those I care about. He said that I seemed like a nice, decent guy and then asked if I would disarm myself just to set his mind at ease and so his wife would feel more comfortable. Well I politely refused to do so stating Ohio law and the Constitution. At that point the conversation became less casual and a whole lot less friendly on his part. He stated that he would have to call the Sheriff's office and the park ranger. I told him that's fine with me since I wasn't doing anything wrong. He said that he had tried to be nice about it but I had forced him into this action. Then he started walking away and got his phone out.

    At this point I decided just to wait at a picnic table for the Sheriff and or Ranger before heading into the woods. About 25 minutes later a Sheriff cruiser pulled up and parked across from my bike and the silver minivan. The couple had put the kids and their bikes back in the van and he got out to talk to the deputy leaving her in the van. While they were talking here comes the park Ranger who joined them in conversation. After about 10-15 minutes the Sheriff and Ranger come over to where I am sitting at a picnic table and start asking me some questions, and I tell them my name address. The Ranger is kinda just sitting there while the Sheriff and I are talking about my conceal carry permit, and that Ohio state laws do allow me to carry either open or concealed in state park areas. Then he asks if I would be willing let him take my weapon back to his vehicle to run the serial numbers just to make sure it's not stolen. I tell him sure and then that I am going to pull it out of my holster and clear the weapon before I give it to him. He comes back a few minutes later and hands my weapon back to me stating that its clear so I reload the magazine into the gun and chamber a round. Then put it back in my holster. He asks me why I carry everywhere I go, I ask him if he would go out on patrol without his sidearm to which he replies of course not. I stated for the same reason you never know what is going to happen.

    He then went back to the minivan and informed them that I was well within my rights to openly carry my weapon in this park, and that there was nothing he could do. The couple seemed very upset with this and stated that they felt threatened and that the safety of their children were at risk because I was carrying a loaded sidearm. He told them that he could not force me to leave since I had the same right to be there as they did etc, and if they didn't feel safe they could always go to another park. The female asked for the deputy's name and his supervisor's phone number so he gave her a business card with that information on it. After they left and the Sheriff told me this I gave him my cell phone number and that if they tried to get him in trouble that he can call me or his supervisor could. Well I guess she called and tried to start some crap stating I was brandishing my weapon and that the officer wasn't doing his job properly etc. So I went over to the office (left my weapon at the front desk). I spent about 30 minutes going over what had happened from my point of view. The supervisor told me that my information pretty much lined up with what the officer and the park ranger had said.

    What are your opinions on conceal and open carry?

    Is there anything in this scenario that you would have done differently, had you been in my place, or the husband/wife's.


    Just in case anyone is wondering I found about 40 mushrooms after this was all over.
    Downtown Taco likes this.
    04-26-2013 12:59 PM
  24. The Hustleman's Avatar
    They were just ignorant.

    They didn't realize you made that park that much safer.

    You handled it differently that I would have (I wouldn't consent to any searches or anything) and I would have recorded it as allowed by my states law (check your statutes about recording) so that I had a leg to stand on.

    A gun carried by a man with a permit is nothing to fear, it simply means he's been background checked, fingerprinted, his prints are on file with the FBI, and he's waited for all the ATF's checks to come back.

    It's the people who have guns but haven't done those things that are too worry about, and those will never let their guns be seen.

    I don't worry about conceal or open carrying, do what works best for you.

    I'm a black man however, so I conceal because I've been hit with too many BMWAG calls. I wear a shirt and tie daily so it's not my style of dress. It's not how I carry myself, so I only openly carry when I'm around others openly carrying as an outing at Starbucks or something.

    Do what works for you

    Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2
    04-26-2013 01:34 PM
  25. jdbii's Avatar
    Gosh, there is really nothing you could do. It is not unforeseeable that people are going to react that way (minus them fabricating that you brandished your weapon -- shame on them) in light of everything that has been happening recently in the news. I don't think there is anything you could have done, unless there was going to be some way for you to deescalate from the outset. But you said he was friendly at first, so you had no way of knowing he was going to get hysterical. At that point, as a matter of principle and self-respect, you don't want to reward hysterical behavior, but then again you are the one that is armed and interacting with a hysterical unarmed person. Safety would almost dictate that by virtue of you being armed that you carry a bit more responsibility to find a way to gracefully back out. I am not saying that you didn't try or that it was even an option. I really don't know what is right or wrong, but thanks for sharing.
    04-26-2013 03:06 PM
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