09-20-2013 05:13 PM
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  1. llamabreath's Avatar
    Again, you need to separate out the events that are occurring. The genocides over the last couple years were distinct events from what is going on in Syria. You cannot, and should not, discuss them in the same breath.

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    Are you implying that one genocide is less meaningful or more meaningful than another?

    08-29-2013 08:10 PM
  2. cdmjlt369's Avatar
    I don't think you quite understand the geopolitics. There needs to be stability in the region because at least three nations have nuclear weapons, one of which has had serious issues with warring factions and stability. The US is more concerned about the detonation of nuclear weapons in the region than they are oil. (The nations with the largest supplies of oil are stable) The fact that the US supplies soldiers to protect Pakistani nuclear arms speaks volumes for their concerns.

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    I don't think people understand that if an air strike occurs and assad decides to retaliate against Israel, its going to get ugly quick. And they have nukes.

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    08-29-2013 08:39 PM
  3. JHBThree's Avatar
    Are you implying that one genocide is less meaningful or more meaningful than another?

    Well, first of all, you need to understand that what's going on in Syria is not genocide. Its a civil war.

    Second of all, no, that is not what I'm implying. What I'm saying is that the situations are very different, which is why the response is different.

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    08-29-2013 08:57 PM
  4. JHBThree's Avatar
    I don't think people understand that if an air strike occurs and assad decides to retaliate against Israel, its going to get ugly quick. And they have nukes.

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app
    Assad won't do anything against Israel. Although he may be crazy, he's not insane. (The moment he launches an attack against Israel, the spot where he sits will be reduced to a smoking crater by a tomahawk)

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    08-29-2013 08:58 PM
  5. llamabreath's Avatar
    Well, first of all, you need to understand that what's going on in Syria is not genocide. Its a civil war.

    Second of all, no, that is not what I'm implying. What I'm saying is that the situations are very different, which is why the response is different.

    Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
    I know war is ugly, but killing your own unarmed women and children is genocide. Civil war would be armed combat with people in your country that have taken up arms.

    Those women and children are either a casualty of it, or target of it. Which one?

    08-29-2013 09:05 PM
  6. JHBThree's Avatar
    I know war is ugly, but killing your own unarmed women and children is genocide. Civil war would be armed combat with people in your country that have taken up arms.

    Those women and children are either a casualty of it, or target of it. Which one?

    Syria is a civil war, between a group of rebels, supported by a chunk of their population, that wish to overthrow the Syrian dictatorship.

    The term genocide has an actual meaning, and it is not applicable to what is happening in Syria.

    Main Entry: genocide
    Pronunciation: \ˈje-nə-ˌsīd\
    Function: noun
    Date: 1944
    : the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group
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    08-29-2013 10:32 PM
  7. msndrstood's Avatar
    This map explains a lot.

    Semantics aside, it does appear to be a mix of genocide and a geopolitical civil war as well. This time, as it has been in the post, it comes down to which religion sect you belong to and where your patch of real estate lies in this area of the world. This is what George Bush et al failed to take into consideration in Iraq, ultimately leading to the collapse of Baghdad and Fallujah. There, it was the ruling minority Sunni vs the oppressed majority Shia.

    In Syria, it's much the same. Once again like Iraq, the ruling minority of the Alawites sect (Sunni) controls the vast majority of Kurds and Druze (Shia and Christian), the other warring factions in Syria. And of course al Qaeda saw its opening in the midst of this power struggle and made its move. al Qaeda is primarily Sunni.

    It's worth the read.

    http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wo...o-complicated/

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    08-29-2013 11:09 PM
  8. GadgetGator's Avatar
    Syria is a civil war, between a group of rebels, supported by a chunk of their population, that wish to overthrow the Syrian dictatorship.

    The term genocide has an actual meaning, and it is not applicable to what is happening in Syria.


    Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
    That's not entirely true. The Alawites, of which Assad is one, are a minority and as such worry about genocide should they ever be out of power.
    msndrstood likes this.
    08-29-2013 11:18 PM
  9. GadgetGator's Avatar
    Because people are in need. To be honest there are some events the US government itself doesn't donate that much in comparison to other nations. In the tsunami in 2004 we donated $1 billion USD, we have 20 million citizens. America of 32 0million citizens donated $950 million. However, your ngo's donated 8x ours thus your total figure was a fair bit higher, which should be right as the is 16x the amount of people in the states than I'm Australia. In absolute terms, according to wikipedia the States has donated 30.46 billion, Australia 5.44 which works out to be 5.59x more than us, however with 16x the the population that's about one third of what we donate per citizen. So in donations per capita for a government, that states really doesn't donate that much. These were donations to Countries who have directly attacked us also.

    This is why we donate, this is from John Howard (prime minster 1996-2007) when questioned about his blank cheques.





    I believe they, like most nations don't want another Iraq war. Thus, they are trying to find a solution which minimises the loss of human life. E.g By air strikes rather by soldiers on foot.
    Posted via Android Central App
    Um, no. Most nations, unlike Russia, do not have a financial stake in the outcome of this. Russia isn't being benevolent here. They are trying to protect their financial interest.
    msndrstood likes this.
    08-29-2013 11:24 PM
  10. Wiley_11's Avatar
    08-29-2013 11:27 PM
  11. msndrstood's Avatar
    I essentially said this earlier about the subject of invasion. That teams of Seal Teams, Rangers and possibly (but it's not an option now) SAS would be inserted to carry out the mission, whatever it was.

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    08-29-2013 11:35 PM
  12. msndrstood's Avatar
    08-29-2013 11:56 PM
  13. Fairclough's Avatar
    I don't think you quite understand the geopolitics. There needs to be stability in the region because at least three nations have nuclear weapons, one of which has had serious issues with warring factions and stability. The US is more concerned about the detonation of nuclear weapons in the region than they are oil. (The nations with the largest supplies of oil are stable) The fact that the US supplies soldiers to protect Pakistani nuclear arms speaks volumes for their concerns.
    Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
    Than you have to worry about the countries sitting on Uranium, hence why most states our mining is prohibited for Uranium, but is only starting to begin again. There have been complex talks with foreign nations trying to ban the resale of our Uranium etc and one complication was countries wanted us to take the waste product which we refused to do.

    I know war is ugly, but killing your own unarmed women and children is genocide. Civil war would be armed combat with people in your country that have taken up arms.

    Those women and children are either a casualty of it, or target of it. Which one?

    Agreed, to some extend it is genocide, its an ugly mix.
    Um, no. Most nations, unlike Russia, do not have a financial stake in the outcome of this. Russia isn't being benevolent here. They are trying to protect their financial interest.
    I actually think most nations do have a steak, Globally when the reports when around - most stock markets crash, that can indicate there is steaks around the world. Ours crashed on the back of mining companies, some say Syria, but who knows. I think there is most countries anywhere, just some more than others. I love how the US hate the Russians so much.
    msndrstood likes this.
    08-30-2013 12:36 AM
  14. msndrstood's Avatar
    Russia is our nemesis. I remember the air raid drills. The bomb shelter in the basement of our elementary school, filled with supplies. They tested the air raid system when I moved away in 1979. So it's ingrained to a point in those of us that are older. Younger people only know the current state of the relationship.

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    08-30-2013 12:47 AM
  15. Fairclough's Avatar
    I know about that, I just find it funny - we got over our hate with Japan awhile back. To be honest I wonder how Russia felt after WWII, their Ally turned on them! They would of been ridiculously alienated. It should be interesting to see how this plays out, I think there general consensus is that there needs to be some form of action - but Poli's are in the way creating red tape. Than there is the debate how to tactically deal with it.
    msndrstood likes this.
    08-30-2013 01:00 AM
  16. Serial Fordicator's Avatar
    Regardless of your opinion about Glenn Beck, watch this video. He is mad about both sides

    cdmjlt369 likes this.
    08-30-2013 08:23 AM
  17. cdmjlt369's Avatar
    Probably the most sensible take I've heard on Syria yet.

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    08-30-2013 08:41 AM
  18. msndrstood's Avatar
    Nevermind the children then, just don't worry about them, don't think about them. It's okay, it's war, let them kill each other indiscriminately. Turn your eyes away, nothing to see here.


    In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didnt speak up because I wasnt a Communist...

    When they locked up the social democrats,
    I remained silent;
    I was not a social democrat.

    ...then they came for the Jews, And I didnt speak up because I wasnt a Jew...

    When they came for me, there was no one left to speak out.

    Friedrich Gustav Emil Martin Niemller (14 January 1892 6 March 1984) was a Protestant pastor and social activist.


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    08-30-2013 09:28 AM
  19. Fairclough's Avatar
    I like how he says 'our children and country are at stake at this point.' What about the children of Syria?

    Posted via Android Central App
    msndrstood likes this.
    08-30-2013 09:35 AM
  20. Serial Fordicator's Avatar
    Ummm, so we supply rebel forces weapons to kill more children? Why does it always have to be us? Its easy to say we need to go to war when we aren't the ones fighting.

    I doubt you'd have this same opinion if it were a Republican in office. How did you feel when we went into Iraq? We have no business in it. The rebels are affiliated with al Qaeda for heavens sake.

    http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3812732

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    08-30-2013 09:55 AM
  21. msndrstood's Avatar
    Ummm, so we supply rebel forces weapons to kill more children? Why does it always have to be us? Its easy to say we need to go to war when we aren't the ones fighting.

    I doubt you'd have this same opinion if it were a Republican in office. How did you feel when we went into Iraq? We have no business in it. The rebels are affiliated with al Qaeda for heavens sake.

    http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3812732

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    How did I feel about Iraq? I trusted Colin Powell, did not trust Rumsfeld and Cheney, I felt they were running the show, not Bush. When Colin Powell made the case before the UN, I thought it sounded legitimate. However, about 6-8 months into the Iraq war, I began to feel like the Bush administration had no idea what they stepped into. They clearly had no forethought concerning the religious and politicial factions and the history of the region in the past. By 2004, it was obvious it was a mistake and there were no WMD's and there hadn't been any for at least a decade. And worse still, they had broken a previously functioning country and tens of thousands died, for what 10 years later? This was a war of our doing, not an intervention into a government that was systematically killing it's own. On the occasion that that did happen to the Kurds in1988, Reagan turned a blind eye and did not intervene. But then again, the world was pretty flush with oil. The price for a barrel of oil was $12.00 a barrel.

    How is Syria different?

    There are many warring factions, similar to Iraq. However, the fight started with an uprising, rather than a total breakdown of government which we created in Iraq by dissolving the military and government after the invasion on a false pretense that Iraq was involved in 9/11.

    The minority Sunnis are in power with majority Shia, Kurds and Druze being slaughtered. Pretty much the same situation that existed in Iraq. The atrocities that each side commits upon the other are similar. I read a story by Richard Engle about his time in Iraq. A Sunni family's 1 year old son was kidnapped by Shia militants, he was returned 3 days later on their front doorstep in a roasting pan. He had been cooked to death. I will never ever forget that account of man's cruelty to man. Unbelievable. We can't stop stuff like that, depraved minds know no boundaries, but in Syria, the government is killing its own people.

    My question to you is, is an American child worth more than a Syrian child? Where is that line drawn?

    There are people in this country (not directing this at anyone, just a general observation) that feel its ok to kill an abortion doctor to prevent the death of embryos and fetuses, but children already born are left to whatever fate deals them. In this case a prolonged, excruciating death by the hands of the person who is supposed to protect them. Assad's father did the same in1982 with the use of hydrogen cyanide gas. Thousands were killed during that uprising and no one blinked an eye. (Also under a Reagan Presidency) Bashir Assad is carrying on his father's legacy.

    When is enough, enough?

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    08-30-2013 10:42 AM
  22. cdmjlt369's Avatar
    Nevermind the children then, just don't worry about them, don't think about them. It's okay, it's war, let them kill each other indiscriminately. Turn your eyes away, nothing to see here.


    In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didnt speak up because I wasnt a Communist...

    When they locked up the social democrats,
    I remained silent;
    I was not a social democrat.

    ...then they came for the Jews, And I didnt speak up because I wasnt a Jew...

    When they came for me, there was no one left to speak out.

    Friedrich Gustav Emil Martin Niemller (14 January 1892 6 March 1984) was a Protestant pastor and social activist.


    Sent via Note II
    You're risking turning a civil war into a world war.

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    08-30-2013 10:54 AM
  23. msndrstood's Avatar
    Every conflict has that potential these days. And we don't even have to be involved.

    North Korea/South Korea

    Pakistan/India

    Israel/Iran/Syria

    Japan/China

    Notice they are all nuclear powers.

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    08-30-2013 10:59 AM
  24. cdmjlt369's Avatar
    Every conflict has that potential these days. And we don't even have to be involved.

    North Korea/South Korea

    Pakistan/India

    Israel/Iran/Syria

    Japan/China

    Notice they are all nuclear powers.

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    More opposition to this proposed intervention than any other. And Russia is not usually this vocal.

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    08-30-2013 11:07 AM
  25. msndrstood's Avatar
    More opposition to this proposed intervention than any other. And Russia is not usually this vocal.

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    It's about the money. And the flow of weapons.

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/parallels/2...pporting-assad

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    08-30-2013 11:24 AM
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