10-23-2013 04:26 PM
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  1. JW4VZW's Avatar
    Allen West?! Have you checked his military history? We must live on different planets.

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    Are you referring to when Colonel West acted on information that he had pertaining to an ambush on his unit? The fact that he, at risk to his career, put his unit above all else? That is the man that I would have been proud to serve under when I was in the military. What are you talking about? How about you tell us about your military career.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Yep... and alot of people voted for him because of the color of his skin too.
    Voting for him because he is black is just as racist as not voting for him because he is black.
    10-07-2013 04:47 PM
  2. msndrstood's Avatar
    You've certainly made an impression in your 26 days on this forum. Way to go.

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    Wiley_11 likes this.
    10-07-2013 04:50 PM
  3. Mooncatt's Avatar
    I wish in school they taught financial responsibility.
    At the risk of being off topic, some schools do now and tnt numbers are growing. Dave Ramsey (big time radio host and financial coach) puts out a course for high schools, but the school has to pay for it or get someone to sponsor it. Many times a local business will. If your local school doesn't offer it, he has products that parents can use to teach their own kids at home (where this stuff should be started at to begin with). He's been taking pleasure on his show to point out how the government is borrowing so much and shut down, but his entire enterprise is ran debt free yet is still on the air.

    As for the debt ceiling, as long as government keeps giving "the people" what they want (i.e. entitlements), the debt is likely to never get under control. That's my opinion, anyway.
    10-08-2013 03:22 AM
  4. JW4VZW's Avatar
    You've certainly made an impression in your 26 days on this forum. Way to go.

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3 now Free
    See, that is what I am talking about. You offer no evidence to back up your statements.

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    At the risk of being off topic, some schools do now and tnt numbers are growing. Dave Ramsey (big time radio host and financial coach) puts out a course for high schools, but the school has to pay for it or get someone to sponsor it. Many times a local business will. If your local school doesn't offer it, he has products that parents can use to teach their own kids at home (where this stuff should be started at to begin with). He's been taking pleasure on his show to point out how the government is borrowing so much and shut down, but his entire enterprise is ran debt free yet is still on the air.

    As for the debt ceiling, as long as government keeps giving "the people" what they want (i.e. entitlements), the debt is likely to never get under control. That's my opinion, anyway.
    You're right, it is ultimately the parent's responsibility. I did not know that about Dave Ramsey, thank you for pointing it out.
    10-08-2013 06:44 AM
  5. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    Are you referring to when Colonel West acted on information that he had pertaining to an ambush on his unit? The fact that he, at risk to his career, put his unit above all else? That is the man that I would have been proud to serve under when I was in the military. What are you talking about? How about you tell us about your military career.
    At least we have him on record as saying that he would totally disregard the law if he thought it was "the right thing to do". I'm not saying I disagree with taking care of your unit, but we have the UCMJ for a reason. He got off easy IMO with just an article 15 and $5,000 fine, when it could've been much MUCH worse.

    And I DO have a service history, that I'm not going to go in here, but someone not having a military career doesn't mean they can't comment on things that happen in the military. If that's going to be your argument then I hope you're a professional politician.
    msndrstood likes this.
    10-08-2013 02:42 PM
  6. asanatheist's Avatar
    This is what Candidate Obama had to say about raising the debt limit..


    The fact that we are here today to debate raising Americas debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. government cant pay its own bills. ... I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase Americas debt limit.
    Then-Sen. Barack Obama, floor speech in the Senate, March 16, 2006

    -----

    Of course that's changed now...
    Isn't that before the recession, you know when the economy was doing, alright and there really a serious concern of overspending in government? That debt ceiling in 2006 was unnecessary.

    And isn't what he's doing now with raising the debt ceiling more of a necessity to keep government functioning as we try to balance out overspending, tax breaks, and more things?

    Yeah people change their minds because circumstances change. Specially in the past few years things have seriously changed at a very fast pace.
    Had Obama kept the same stance from before, and now I would seriously question his judgement and leadership.

    Changing your mind is not lying, as adults we should know this already.
    msndrstood likes this.
    10-08-2013 03:00 PM
  7. asanatheist's Avatar
    I'm not a democrat nor a republican. But to me raising the debt ceiling is like your credit card company saying "You can't make your minimum payments on a $5000 line of credit...so we're going to raise it to $10000. Hope it helps!"

    ✌SG3/iPad2
    It's more like someone denying a loan then have to tell his or her kids they will now need to give up concessions. Such as a house... Car.... School... etc.

    So yes Government will continue to raise the Debt ceiling until it gets it together. There is no choice, specially when government shut downs impact the US economy greatly.
    msndrstood likes this.
    10-08-2013 03:08 PM
  8. NoYankees44's Avatar
    Isn't that before the recession, you know when the economy was doing, alright and there really a serious concern of overspending in government? That debt ceiling in 2006 was unnecessary.

    And isn't what he's doing now with raising the debt ceiling more of a necessity to keep government functioning as we try to balance out overspending, tax breaks, and more things?

    Yeah people change their minds because circumstances change. Specially in the past few years things have seriously changed at a very fast pace.
    Had Obama kept the same stance from before, and now I would seriously question his judgement and leadership.

    Changing your mind is not lying, as adults we should know this already.
    This is also the man that continuously signs legislation that requires more government spending and increased defecates while refusing to actually cut any spending...
    10-08-2013 03:11 PM
  9. nolittdroid's Avatar
    I do not vote for a party, but for that person and what they stand for. And you made a great analogy to the credit card company. If the government was a business they would be out of business already. I wish in school they taught financial responsibility.
    That only applies if you're a plebeian tax payer and the rules do not apply to you!

    ✌SG3/iPad2
    10-08-2013 04:09 PM
  10. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    This is also the man that continuously signs legislation that requires more government spending and increased defecates while refusing to actually cut any spending...
    So....who passes the legislation that he signs?

    Who's responsibility is it to pass a budget? Yes, he has some bargaining power (obviously), but Congress can't even agree. Heck, one party can't even agree with each other. The other is playing hard ball.

    That's all BEFORE it gets to the President.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4
    msndrstood likes this.
    10-08-2013 04:59 PM
  11. NoYankees44's Avatar
    So....who passes the legislation that he signs?

    Who's responsibility is it to pass a budget? Yes, he has some bargaining power (obviously), but Congress can't even agree. Heck, one party can't even agree with each other. The other is playing hard ball.

    That's all BEFORE it gets to the President.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4
    He still has to choose to sign it. He is not all it takes of course, but in the end he has chosen this route just as much as the Senate. He is and equal branch and can choose to stop signing bills that increase spending whenever he wants.

    I have yet to see him have any desire to a lot the government less of my money.
    10-08-2013 05:09 PM
  12. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    He still has to choose to sign it. He is not all it takes of course, but in the end he has chosen this route just as much as the Senate. He is and equal branch and can choose to stop signing bills that increase spending whenever he wants.

    I have yet to see him have any desire to a lot the government less of my money.
    That's fine, but the other guys passed it too.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4
    10-08-2013 05:10 PM
  13. NoYankees44's Avatar
    That's fine, but the other guys passed it too.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4
    Original post had to do with the president changing his mind on the debt. I merely pointed out that he changed his mind AFTER signing lots of legislation that contributed to the debt
    10-08-2013 05:32 PM
  14. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    Original post had to do with the president changing his mind on the debt. I merely pointed out that he changed his mind AFTER signing lots of legislation that contributed to the debt
    Which you didn't actually respond to. You went to the "presidents spending all the money" fallback argument.

    Again, the President doesn't make the budget or spend the money. He does have to agree, but we (the Congress that is) can't get to the point where they can even write the legislation to put in front of him.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4
    msndrstood likes this.
    10-08-2013 05:40 PM
  15. asanatheist's Avatar
    Original post had to do with the president changing his mind on the debt. I merely pointed out that he changed his mind AFTER signing lots of legislation that contributed to the debt
    He changed his mind after writing legislation?
    Can you please verify that with PROOF, as in Obama speaking exactly what his intentions are. If he really thought different when signing those agreements?
    Or maybe it's more like he changed his mind and signed those legislation?

    Either way I find it comical that the best arguments this thread has brought up are:
    1. Quote mining from 2006 and making it as if that statement is still something to stand and valid after 7 years, a recession, and finally a barely recovering economy later.
    Quite frankly I am more afraid of people ignoring everything and sticking to their guns no matter what the reality of it is.
    2. Attempt to maliciously construe a chronological order that "He didn't believe in what he was signing until AFTER he signed". We quite frankly DON'T know what his intentions are could be sincerely what he is saying, could not. For now I will stick to what we do have, which is what he has said and his actions more or less reflect what he has said. Some have failed, like Guantanamo Bay however that was Congress being Congress being Congress.

    How many here with a straight face thought Obama would NOT increase spending when he made his "promises":
    * Affordable Healthcare ("Obamacare" if you must which oddly enough is comprised of Republican/Democratic/Independent ideas and WAS NOT solely Obama's own device, mostly cabinet members and many pieces taken straight from other legislation passed in states- hilarious... isn't it?)
    * Education for the young (loans, no child left behind, etc).

    We're all adults here for the most part. Let's not act like pansy little children.
    msndrstood likes this.
    10-08-2013 10:27 PM
  16. NoYankees44's Avatar
    He changed his mind after writing legislation?
    Can you please verify that with PROOF, as in Obama speaking exactly what his intentions are. If he really thought different when signing those agreements?
    Or maybe it's more like he changed his mind and signed those legislation?

    Either way I find it comical that the best arguments this thread has brought up are:
    1. Quote mining from 2006 and making it as if that statement is still something to stand and valid after 7 years, a recession, and finally a barely recovering economy later.
    Quite frankly I am more afraid of people ignoring everything and sticking to their guns no matter what the reality of it is.
    2. Attempt to maliciously construe a chronological order that "He didn't believe in what he was signing until AFTER he signed". We quite frankly DON'T know what his intentions are could be sincerely what he is saying, could not. For now I will stick to what we do have, which is what he has said and his actions more or less reflect what he has said. Some have failed, like Guantanamo Bay however that was Congress being Congress being Congress.

    How many here with a straight face thought Obama would NOT increase spending when he made his "promises":
    * Affordable Healthcare ("Obamacare" if you must which oddly enough is comprised of Republican/Democratic/Independent ideas and WAS NOT solely Obama's own device, mostly cabinet members and many pieces taken straight from other legislation passed in states- hilarious... isn't it?)
    * Education for the young (loans, no child left behind, etc).

    We're all adults here for the most part. Let's not act like pansy little children.
    I have no idea when he changed his mind nor do I care.

    My sole point is that he has significantly contributed to the debt by signing legislation that has significantly increased spending by the government. That fact contradicts the statement he made back in 06 that was originally quoted. Take it however you want.

    The reason that quote is always brought up in debt discussions is just to jab at Obama. I really has nothing to do with the issue of raising the debt ceiling.
    H3aTeRzz likes this.
    10-09-2013 05:53 AM
  17. asanatheist's Avatar
    I have no idea when he changed his mind nor do I care.

    My sole point is that he has significantly contributed to the debt by signing legislation that has significantly increased spending by the government. That fact contradicts the statement he made back in 06 that was originally quoted. Take it however you want.

    The reason that quote is always brought up in debt discussions is just to jab at Obama. I really has nothing to do with the issue of raising the debt ceiling.
    Sounds like a childish finger pointing game.
    Different times, different circumstances.
    10-09-2013 08:27 AM
  18. Mooncatt's Avatar
    For those of us that know you can't spend your way into prosperity, raising the debt ceiling is never a good idea, regardless of the times and circumstances.
    10-09-2013 09:26 AM
  19. NoYankees44's Avatar
    Sounds like a childish finger pointing game.
    Different times, different circumstances.
    To a very large extent it is, but when someone is making the point for a different path, it helps to point and all the mistakes that got us to where we are now. Those mistakes typically come with blame. When you are advocating against the future mistakes, people tend to not trust those who made some of the ones in the past.
    10-09-2013 10:08 AM
  20. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    To a very large extent it is, but when someone is making the point for a different path, it helps to point and all the mistakes that got us to where we are now. Those mistakes typically come with blame. When you are advocating against the future mistakes, people tend to not trust those who made some of the ones in the past.
    You still haven't responded to those that have asked why it's not ok to change your mind/position/stance on things when the circumstances/situation and/or new information becomes available.

    The quote from 2006 that's floating around had very different circumstances surrounding it than what we're facing today. I'm ok with positions changing based on circumstances and new relevant information (that comes from the military). Changing just for the sake of change, though, is more questionable. IMO that's not what happened, as I'm pretty sure we can all agree that things are not the same as they were back in 2006. My memory might not be what it used to be, but weren't we in the midst of a discussion on how to fund a war back then?
    10-09-2013 11:27 AM
  21. NoYankees44's Avatar
    You still haven't responded to those that have asked why it's not ok to change your mind/position/stance on things when the circumstances/situation and/or new information becomes available.

    The quote from 2006 that's floating around had very different circumstances surrounding it than what we're facing today. I'm ok with positions changing based on circumstances and new relevant information (that comes from the military). Changing just for the sake of change, though, is more questionable. IMO that's not what happened, as I'm pretty sure we can all agree that things are not the same as they were back in 2006. My memory might not be what it used to be, but weren't we in the midst of a discussion on how to fund a war back then?
    It is perfectly fine to change you mind with the circumstances. The decision now is different than the decision then, there is no doubt. If however you helped create the circumstances that facilitated the change in opinion, you will be judged harshly. Which is my argument.
    10-09-2013 11:39 AM
  22. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    It is perfectly fine to change you mind with the circumstances. The decision now is different than the decision then, there is no doubt. If however you helped create the circumstances that facilitated the change in opinion, you will be judged harshly. Which is my argument.
    So basically you judge every single politician that held office in the 2000's harshly? I just want to make sure the harshness is being dealt out fairly.
    msndrstood and nolittdroid like this.
    10-09-2013 11:44 AM
  23. NoYankees44's Avatar
    So basically you judge every single politician that held office in the 2000's harshly? I just want to make sure the harshness is being dealt out fairly.
    Yes actually. But I tend to judge more harshly those that have control over 1/3 of the government and the sole power to veto bills that increase spending.

    And to answer your next question: Yes I also criticize Bush for the debt he left.
    10-09-2013 11:48 AM
  24. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    Going back to that 2006 quote, where he opposed raising the debt limit, couldn't it then be argued that he was trying NOT to contribute to the problem? That he might have actually wanted to get to the root of it and solve it?

    I'm sort of playing devil's advocate, since I didn't follow politics at all back then, and don't read every piece of news that comes out now about it.


    It just appears that people are reading that quote, looking at what's happened since then, and said "OMG HE'S A FLIP FLOPPER!". When in reality, the circumstances have changed, and views changing is an ok thing to do. It could also be very different looking at things from the Senate vs the Presidency.
    nolittdroid and msndrstood like this.
    10-09-2013 11:49 AM
  25. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    Yes actually. But I tend to judge more harshly those that have control over 1/3 of the government and the sole power to veto bills that increase spending.

    And to answer your next question: Yes I also criticize Bush for the debt he left.
    That wasn't going to be my next question, since that was actually part of my question in the first place.
    10-09-2013 11:50 AM
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