01-28-2014 11:20 PM
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  1. Farish's Avatar
    I believe we need Universal Healthcare in the United States because there is too much profit motivation in treatments not "cures".

    The best example I can recall recently was an episode of the show Shark Tank.

    For those not familiar with the show, it basically has small start up companies that come to some multi millionaires and billionaires seeking investment funds for their products.

    One of the products that showed up last year was a nasal filter that is nearly invisible that covers up your nostrils. It blocks out 99 percent of the allergens,carcinogens, and viruses in the air that you would breathe.

    The person who invented this product "Joe Moore", Did so because he believed that the carcinogens he had breathe caused his stomach cancer.

    Well during the show, the specific question was asked.

    "Why don't you take this and sell it to the pharmeutical companies?"

    His response was

    "They told me they would buy the product to bury it. Why would we sell these cheap strips that prevent problems that people are paying billions to treat."

    There is no profit motivations for cures, cures and preventions are one time fixes. There is no recurring revenue opportunity.

    There is much more I can go into about this, but right now there is just way too money to be made in treatments not cures.
    09-29-2013 09:45 AM
  2. qxr's Avatar
    So you believe it because they said it on shark tank?
    What you breathe in if carcinogenic will cause cancer in the lungs. The macrophages in the lungs will pick it up.
    What you ingest can cause cancer in the stomach and then if possible travel. Rarely does anything survive the HCl in the stomach ...mainly helicobacter pylori and the virus causing polio.

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    09-29-2013 09:53 AM
  3. Farish's Avatar
    So you believe it because they said it on shark tank?
    What you breathe in if carcinogenic will cause cancer in the lungs. The macrophages in the lungs will pick it up.
    What you ingest can cause cancer in the stomach and then if possible travel.

    Sent from my SCH-I545 using AC Forums mobile app
    I don't know if this guy item works or doesn't work. What I believe is that treatments are worth more than cures. Treatments may stop the problem, but a cure is a one time solution that doesn't bring additional revenue.

    One example that I can give is type 2 diabetes.

    Did you know there is a cure for this? It may sound crazy to you, but there is a cure.

    Any diabetic person who gets a gastric bypass or sleeve immediately no longer has diabetes. The instant the surgery is over, the diabetes is gone.

    Of course afterwards they have to follow a strict diet, but I just wanted to let you know this option exists.

    New Take On How Gastric Bypass Cures Diabetes | NIH Director's Blog

    The surgery costs about 20K-30K.

    Now here is an option although drastic to cure diabetes, but then companies lose out on revenue on people's monthly diabetes medicine and test strips. I know a person whose insurance pays out around 5k a year for a medications and test strips. If she has the medicine for 30 years, that it is a 150k. Even if the bypass costs 50K, that is over 100K in lifetime funds that is lost.

    Would you like to know how I learned about this thinking? Because I didn't use to think this way.

    An executive of major hospital group that generates 50 billion dollars told me this. The way they think is if gastric bypass gets pushed for diabetes it cuts down future revenues from that patient by 200 percent.
    09-29-2013 10:21 AM
  4. qxr's Avatar
    Actually we can cure 25% of patients with type two, by cure I mean no pills, with diet and exercise. That is a 1 in 4 chance and in medicine that is huge but rarely are patients compliant.
    Further type 2 is an insulin receptor problem so the surgeries you describe lower the insulin released however there are side effects to the surgeries. Namely obese people heal very slowly because adipose tissue, I.e. fat, does not have good blood supply. So the cells that generate the scar tissue take a long time to get there. Further most have heart disease as well. Diabetes has no easy cure, it is usually a comorbid disease.
    Finally, surgery is invasive it is not the first choice, esp. With risky patients.

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    09-29-2013 10:38 AM
  5. cdmjlt369's Avatar
    Sent from my PC36100 using AC Forums mobile app
    Someone please show me in our Constitution where national healthcare is found. It appears to me to be left to the states. If you want to make it the federal governments job, change the constitution by ammending it.
    The proposed 28th amendment needs to be ratified. That would at least make congress be a LITTLE more forthcoming and less likely to sign irresponsible legislation. Then maybe the wouldn't be as likely to" pass it to know what's in it."

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    qxr likes this.
    09-30-2013 11:29 AM
  6. Farish's Avatar
    The proposed 28th amendment needs to be ratified. That would at least make congress be a LITTLE more forthcoming and less likely to sign irresponsible legislation. Then maybe the wouldn't be as likely to" pass it to know what's in it."

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app
    You guys are looking at this wrong. The amendment should say corporations should be able to buy our vote like they do congressman.


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    09-30-2013 12:31 PM
  7. qxr's Avatar
    Fair is fair. Congressional staffers wrote the bill, they and the presidential staff should be forced to be included in obamacare, period. The American people did not get an exemption why should they.

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    09-30-2013 05:54 PM
  8. cdmjlt369's Avatar
    You guys are looking at this wrong. The amendment should say corporations should be able to buy our vote like they do congressman.


    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using AC Forums mobile app
    My point being they don't have to consider much when it comes to a government shutdown. They still get paid. They don't have to worry about a law, they can just make whoever the want exempt. They don't have to live with the repercussions that "we the people" do.

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    qxr and mrsmumbles like this.
    09-30-2013 06:08 PM
  9. Farish's Avatar
    My point being they don't have to consider much when it comes to a government shutdown. They still get paid. They don't have to worry about a law, they can just make whoever the want exempt. They don't have to live with the repercussions that "we the people" do.

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app
    I agree, my point is that if they can get paid for their vote, why can't we.
    09-30-2013 06:17 PM
  10. qxr's Avatar
    I agree, my point is that if they can get paid for their vote, why can't we.
    Why do you think we have such a problem with entitlement mentality and thus reform? Part of the population is already paid for their vote in handouts. Self respect ,self reliance are foreign concepts to some Americans. Sad to say.

    Sent from my SCH-I545 using AC Forums mobile app
    mrsmumbles likes this.
    09-30-2013 09:45 PM
  11. Farish's Avatar
    Why do you think we have such a problem with entitlement mentality and thus reform? Part of the population is already paid for their vote in handouts. Self respect ,self reliance are foreign concepts to some Americans. Sad to say.

    Sent from my SCH-I545 using AC Forums mobile app
    What does entitlements have to do with a healthcare system that is so driven by profit motive to that the Hippocratic Oath is broken in the process.

    I have no problems if we kept the same healthcare system if we had different motivations involved.

    Also if you believe entitlements is why the last presidential election was lost then there is no point having a further conversation with you because you have blinded yourself to rhetoric. There is a reason why Nate Silver predicted the election accurately and it had nothing to do with entitlements.
    msndrstood and GadgetGator like this.
    09-30-2013 10:48 PM
  12. qxr's Avatar
    What does entitlements have to do with a healthcare system that is so driven by profit motive to that the Hippocratic Oath is broken in the process.

    I have no problems if we kept the same healthcare system if we had different motivations involved.

    Also if you believe entitlements is why the last presidential election was lost then there is no point having a further conversation with you because you have blinded yourself to rhetoric. There is a reason why Nate Silver predicted the election accurately and it had nothing to do with entitlements.
    When healthcare is "free" the system is abused. Always.
    That for profit system you thumb your nose at has given us pacemakers, icd defibrillators, all new antibiotics since penicillin, chemotherapy drugs, etc. The rhetoric is on both sides.
    The health care system needed smart reform not this. Why not open up insurance over state lines? Why does California only have a handful of health insurance providers? There is no competition, no incentive to lower costs. Why was the doctor fix left out of obamacare? Why because that made the bill well over a trillion dollars and so far out of the realm of budget neutral it is ridiculous.
    Go ahead visit your local E.R. and see why entitlement reform is healthcare. We would love to have you visit just not as a patient.
    When something is free it is abused when you have skin in the game you think twice, unless you are just another generation welfare.

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    mrsmumbles likes this.
    10-01-2013 07:43 AM
  13. Farish's Avatar
    When healthcare is "free" the system is abused. Always.
    That for profit system you thumb your nose at has given us pacemakers, icd defibrillators, all new antibiotics since penicillin, chemotherapy drugs, etc. The rhetoric is on both sides.
    The health care system needed smart reform not this. Why not open up insurance over state lines? Why does California only have a handful of health insurance providers? There is no competition, no incentive to lower costs. Why was the doctor fix left out of obamacare? Why because that made the bill well over a trillion dollars and so far out of the realm of budget neutral it is ridiculous.
    Go ahead visit your local E.R. and see why entitlement reform is healthcare. We would love to have you visit just not as a patient.
    When something is free it is abused when you have skin in the game you think twice, unless you are just another generation welfare.

    Sent from my SCH-I545 using AC Forums mobile app
    Thar is because too many compromises was made on both sides. Politics and money got in the way.

    When healthcare reform was first talked about all I wanted was-

    No more preexisting conditions.
    As you said healthcare cross statelines.
    A minimum rider policy.

    As far as your inventions my belief still is that we dont have a cure for cancer because a return trip to chemo 5 years later is too profitable.

    As I have stated I am a libertarian except when it comes to healthcare because a major healthcare executive told me to my face that patients are recurring revenue potential.


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    GadgetGator likes this.
    10-01-2013 08:34 AM
  14. qxr's Avatar
    Your view on cancer is obscene. Cancer cells adapt, they get used to the drugs. We try very hard to combat it with multiple types of drugs, surgery and radiation . We are better than before but not perfect and when you have to tell someone their cancer is back it is not pleasant nor about money. It is always about the best interest of the patient. Regardless of what might think. Medicine is my field and you are jaded by a flippant remark.

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    mrsmumbles likes this.
    10-01-2013 09:00 AM
  15. SteveISU's Avatar
    What does entitlements have to do with a healthcare system that is so driven by profit motive to that the Hippocratic Oath is broken in the process.

    I have no problems if we kept the same healthcare system if we had different motivations involved.

    Also if you believe entitlements is why the last presidential election was lost then there is no point having a further conversation with you because you have blinded yourself to rhetoric. There is a reason why Nate Silver predicted the election accurately and it had nothing to do with entitlements.
    Creating another group reliant on government subsidies is enlarging a voting base one side wants. Next election mark my words you will have a Democrat point to a Republican and tell the american people "This man/woman want's to take away your healthcare". Vote had. It is creating another 3rd political rail that no one wants to touch, much like Medicare and SS which no one wants to reform, we'll just wait till the 12th hr and just before the system collapses to put a band-aid on it.

    As I've said earlier.....Government has no role in healthcare because everything government touches gets too expensive and too out of control. Every time healthcare reform comes up on the national level the regular parties run to the table to protect their bottom line. The AMA, insurance lobby, Pharma, ect. The only people who aren't represented are the patients and their bottom lines. I would make insurance mandatory for everyone, I would remove it out of our current employer based system and place it in the hands of the individual. Your boss pays 15K for insurance for you per year, they hand you 15k tax free for you to buy your own plan. If you decide to buy a 10K policy, you get taxed on the other 5k. I would devise a "national standard" to the healthcare plan that everyone must have and make it 100% not for profit. WTF purpose do insurance companies serve? To keep the greedy doctors in line when BC/BS net $9 billion? HMO's were designed to keep costs down, that failed. If insurance companies want to make money they can do so off supplemental coverage that anyone can purchase on their own free will. When people start appreciating and understanding REAL healthcare dollars they will become better consumers. Switzerland has 97 health insurance companies, competition is fierce. I would create reinsurance pools. Meaning if Insurance company A gets lucky and insures more healthy people than Insurance company B did that year, they obviously have netted a profit, that profit is transferred to B. It stops insurance companies from denying the people who really need coverage and only trying to insure health people.

    We have a government that can run or fund medicare or SS correctly, both are priced artificially low because if Joe Q voter got wind of the real cost they'd keel over. Then people get up in arms when there isn't enough money to fund the system? Try honest accounting maybe?

    There are better ways then government intervention. Things generally get more expensive when the government gets involved unless they artificially restrict things. AKA the UK. The UK, a wealthy nation by European standards imports as many new cancer saving drugs as the Czech Republic, that's pitiful. But hey if the death rate in the UK for breast cancer is 26 out of 100 vs. 20/100 in the US it's only 6 women, so what if one of the 6 is your mother, sister, wife, daughter right? That's what government run healthcare gives you unless it's citizens are OK with being taxed to the hilt.
    mrsmumbles likes this.
    10-01-2013 10:14 AM
  16. SteveISU's Avatar
    Thar is because too many compromises was made on both sides. Politics and money got in the way.

    When healthcare reform was first talked about all I wanted was-

    No more preexisting conditions.
    As you said healthcare cross statelines.
    A minimum rider policy.

    As far as your inventions my belief still is that we dont have a cure for cancer because a return trip to chemo 5 years later is too profitable.

    As I have stated I am a libertarian except when it comes to healthcare because a major healthcare executive told me to my face that patients are recurring revenue potential.


    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using AC Forums mobile app
    You know how many patients I see who refuse to do a thing to help themselves. Lose weight, put the cupcake down and exercise, very easy concepts. Many health ailments will improve with those concepts, but you can't tell someone that. Sleep Apnea/sleep medicine is probably the biggest booming field in the past 4yrs. Instead of dropping 20lbs which helps immensely, the patient would rather have surgery, CPAP, Pillar implants, dental appliances ect. JUST DONT' TAKE AWAY THEIR BACON!!!!!!!! They don't want to modify their diet, they want to be handed a pill to fix the problem so they can be elbows deep in a bag of Doritos after they leave the office.

    If you don't want to help yourself, someone will try and help you, but that costs money. It costs roughly $10 million to get FDA approval, it costs half a billion to develop a drug from inception to approval. If you put up $500 million of your money for a good/service, would you like to try and make that back? Or is it all a freebie because we're suppose to only care about helping people?
    bigmatt503 and Algus like this.
    10-01-2013 10:39 AM
  17. Farish's Avatar
    You know how many patients I see who refuse to do a thing to help themselves. Lose weight, put the cupcake down and exercise, very easy concepts. Many health ailments will improve with those concepts, but you can't tell someone that. Sleep Apnea/sleep medicine is probably the biggest booming field in the past 4yrs. Instead of dropping 20lbs which helps immensely, the patient would rather have surgery, CPAP, Pillar implants, dental appliances ect. JUST DONT' TAKE AWAY THEIR BACON!!!!!!!! They don't want to modify their diet, they want to be handed a pill to fix the problem so they can be elbows deep in a bag of Doritos after they leave the office.

    If you don't want to help yourself, someone will try and help you, but that costs money. It costs roughly $10 million to get FDA approval, it costs half a billion to develop a drug from inception to approval. If you put up $500 million of your money for a good/service, would you like to try and make that back? Or is it all a freebie because we're suppose to only care about helping people?
    I have nothing against a profit motive. What I dislike is when people looking at making a profit by not coming up with a permanent solution because it is not as worthwhile.

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    10-01-2013 01:54 PM
  18. qxr's Avatar
    I have nothing against a profit motive. What I dislike is when people looking at making a profit by not coming up with a permanent solution because it is not as worthwhile.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using AC Forums mobile app
    Please illustrate your point with a specific example.
    Do you think we can cure the common cold or do you think we only aid the body's immune response?


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    10-01-2013 02:47 PM
  19. llamabreath's Avatar
    Do you think we can cure the common cold or do you think we only aid the body's immune response?


    Sent from my SCH-I545 using AC Forums mobile app
    I would bet a WHOLE pizza (and i LOVE pizza) that there's already a cure for things such as cancer, baldness, etc, but too much money would be lost by the people that profit from treating chronic ailments etc, that things are kept like this on-purpose.

    cdmjlt369 and qxr like this.
    10-01-2013 03:49 PM
  20. cdmjlt369's Avatar
    I would bet a WHOLE pizza (and i LOVE pizza) that there's already a cure for things such as cancer, baldness, etc, but too much money would be lost by the people that profit from treating chronic ailments etc, that things are kept like this on-purpose.

    Magic Johnson comes to mind. He's had aids now for how many years? Sure can't tell it...hmmmm

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    qxr likes this.
    10-01-2013 04:13 PM
  21. Kilroy13's Avatar
    I call for anarchy! Sink or swim!

    Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk 4
    10-01-2013 04:40 PM
  22. Farish's Avatar
    Please illustrate your point with a specific example.
    Do you think we can cure the common cold or do you think we only aid the body's immune response?


    Sent from my SCH-I545 using AC Forums mobile app
    I know you might of dislike my solution or the risks involved, but what I stated about diabetes is a cure.

    Fecal tranplant was another one where the FDA try to derail it.

    Can you imagine how shaken big Pharma became when they found out you can do this versus paying for specialize antibiotic drugs.

    I would bet a WHOLE pizza (and i LOVE pizza) that there's already a cure for things such as cancer, baldness, etc, but too much money would be lost by the people that profit from treating chronic ailments etc, that things are kept like this on-purpose.

    Basically what he said is why I said single payer would be a smack back in the face.
    10-01-2013 05:36 PM
  23. llamabreath's Avatar
    Magic Johnson comes to mind. He's had aids now for how many years? Sure can't tell it...hmmmm

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app
    EXACTLY :thumbup:

    10-01-2013 05:57 PM
  24. qxr's Avatar
    Magic Johnson has a mutation. Ccr5 which essentially prevents the virus from entering the cell and replicating. He has the hiv virus is his blood but does not have hiv progress to aids. His viral load remains stable. There are patients in italy with similar mutations. It is genetic luck.

    Sent from my SCH-I545 using AC Forums mobile app
    10-01-2013 06:27 PM
  25. GadgetGator's Avatar
    When healthcare is "free" the system is abused. Always.
    That for profit system you thumb your nose at has given us pacemakers, icd defibrillators, all new antibiotics since penicillin, chemotherapy drugs, etc. The rhetoric is on both sides.
    Oh, you mean the system that has left people bankrupt, some hospitals bankrupt and closed, parents with kids who meet a lifetime max on coverage, no new antibiotics lately, and an over prescription of the ones we do have making resistance more likely??? There's a reason people thumb their nose at it!!

    The health care system needed smart reform not this. Why not open up insurance over state lines? Why does California only have a handful of health insurance providers?
    I'm certainly okay with opening things up across state lines, but I fail to see how that automatically lowers cost. If three or four companies all charge about the same, and the others also do the same in their states, how does mixing them together change that? It's just more companies doing the same thing and price fixing stuff. It's not like there is just one company serving California. There IS competition already. And yet, it does not bring prices down. Why? Why wouldn't the same thing happen again just with more companies involved? Even if they all really did lower prices, at some point you reach a floor...a floor that still might be too high for the average person to pay. Then what?
    jdpj2008 likes this.
    10-02-2013 12:29 AM
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