01-28-2014 11:20 PM
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  1. qxr's Avatar
    That's why they need relatively healthy young people (who btw, have more accidental injuries than middle age people) in the mix.

    I would have rather had a one payor system like Medicare, where everyone pays into the system with tax dollars like the Medicare program. It would have been better to pay an extra $30-40 in taxes out of a paycheck than the $1100 a month. I'm happy with Medicare, and I pay $96/mo.

    So, instead of being the only industrialized country in the world that refuses to provide national healthcare for its population, we have the ACA. It's better than nothing. Have you ever had a serious illness and no health insurance? You should try it, not much else seems important when you're sick and need to see a doctor than having the ability to get medical care.

    Sent via Note II
    Look at the populations of those other countries. You cannot compare England, or France to us. They are a fraction of our size. We will be bankrupt in a heartbeat. Actually we are now.
    Obamacare is not better than nothing. It is worse. Those sick people you described, well, if they need a medical device, like a defibrillators, they just got hit with the added tax. What is the justification to tax devices??? Why if it is so great did the staffers exempt themselves? Or the navigators at the irs, why are they exempt? Why are we taxing investment properties sales for this? Why are they, the ones in Congress refusing to give back their exempt status and subsidies?



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    mrsmumbles likes this.
    10-03-2013 10:29 AM
  2. cdmjlt369's Avatar
    Think of it this way, if I can afford to pay a $600 a month insurance premium, on a plan that requires a $5,000 yearly deductible and then leaves me with 40% of the bill, how is that affordable. I could just put $300 a month in an account myself and go to the urgent care or my doctor with cash at that rate.

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app
    qxr and mrsmumbles like this.
    10-03-2013 10:43 AM
  3. llamabreath's Avatar
    Think of it this way, if I can afford to pay a $600 a month insurance premium, on a plan that requires a $5,000 yearly deductible and then leaves me with 40% of the bill, how is that affordable. I could just put $300 a month in an account myself and go to the urgent care or my doctor with cash at that rate.

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app
    Exactly. :thumbup:
    10-03-2013 11:00 AM
  4. qxr's Avatar
    Think of it this way, if I can afford to pay a $600 a month insurance premium, on a plan that requires a $5,000 yearly deductible and then leaves me with 40% of the bill, how is that affordable. I could just put $300 a month in an account myself and go to the urgent care or my doctor with cash at that rate.

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app
    A health savings account can be good. Patients make better choices on their own health care when they can control how their money is spent.
    The indigent would have the same control.

    Sent from my SCH-I545 using AC Forums mobile app
    mrsmumbles likes this.
    10-03-2013 11:05 AM
  5. Farish's Avatar
    Think of it this way, if I can afford to pay a $600 a month insurance premium, on a plan that requires a $5,000 yearly deductible and then leaves me with 40% of the bill, how is that affordable. I could just put $300 a month in an account myself and go to the urgent care or my doctor with cash at that rate.

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app
    You guys did notice that most of these "Obamacare" plans have a max out of pocket cost of 4000/8000 for individual and families.

    Exactly. :thumbup:
    A health savings account can be good. Patients make better choices on their own health care when they can control how their money is spent.
    The indigent would have the same control.

    Sent from my SCH-I545 using AC Forums mobile app
    How much is chemo treatment and other treatments when you are hit with Cancer?

    Do you think that the average American is going to have enough money in a Medical Savings account to cover these costs?

    What about getting in a car accident and needing massive reconstructive surgery and physical therapy?

    My wife had her Gall Bladder remove, from emergency room costs to other fees, it came out to about 50,000k.

    We have insurance.

    If person comes into a hospital with these kind of incidents,

    Cancer, Car Accident, or Emergency Surgery, do think these are going to be cheaper than your max out of pocket costs? Do you think most people are going to have at least a few 100k in their "medical savings" to cover these incidents.

    I have a friend who is fighting breast cancer, she has health insurance. Her surgeries, chemo, and other treatments so far has run around 250K.

    I guess while she is trying to survive she should of hold off on everything and run around with her Medical Savings account and "cost" shop her treatments.
    Wiley_11 and msndrstood like this.
    10-03-2013 12:08 PM
  6. Wiley_11's Avatar
    Why U.S. Health Care Is Obscenely Expensive, In 12 Charts

    So *why* do we pay the most for the least????
    10-03-2013 12:25 PM
  7. Scott7217's Avatar
    I can't take the only generic that works properly for my hypertension (Quinapril) because it makes me cough uncontrollably so I get by with samples of Benicar (over $400 a month even with my Walgreens discount card).
    Can your doctor switch you to Cozaar (Losartan) instead of Benicar (Olmesartan)? Benicar is going to be expensive because it's still under patent, so there's no generic equivalent available. Cozaar is in the same class, so it should work similar to Benicar in theory. You need to speak to your doctor just to make sure, though.

    Also, have you done any comparisons with different drug stores? Prices can vary a lot. If you need help, try going to GoodRx (website). They list the prices of the pharmacies in your area. If you do a comparison between Cozaar and Benicar, you'll see a huge price difference.

    No matter what, the clowns in Washington better get their act together. While they're arguing, the people suffer. I hope things get better for you.
    10-03-2013 12:47 PM
  8. qxr's Avatar
    You guys did notice that most of these "Obamacare" plans have a max out of pocket cost of 4000/8000 for individual and families.





    How much is chemo treatment and other treatments when you are hit with Cancer?

    Do you think that the average American is going to have enough money in a Medical Savings account to cover these costs?

    What about getting in a car accident and needing massive reconstructive surgery and physical therapy?

    My wife had her Gall Bladder remove, from emergency room costs to other fees, it came out to about 50,000k.

    We have insurance.

    If person comes into a hospital with these kind of incidents,

    Cancer, Car Accident, or Emergency Surgery, do think these are going to be cheaper than your max out of pocket costs? Do you think most people are going to have at least a few 100k in their "medical savings" to cover these incidents.

    I have a friend who is fighting breast cancer, she has health insurance. Her surgeries, chemo, and other treatments so far has run around 250K.

    I guess while she is trying to survive she should of hold off on everything and run around with her Medical Savings account and "cost" shop her treatments.
    That is what catastrophic or major medical is for with insurance. I know the approximate cost of chemo, radiation, surgery, the scans, and blood work very well.
    I also know patients are not scanning their credit cards when they come in to the hospital following a car accident. We do not refuse care in the USA.
    Health savings accounts are for the routine care or minor emergencies. The health savings accounts should be an option for those who want it. Patients are astute consumers.

    Sent from my SCH-I545 using AC Forums mobile app
    cdmjlt369 likes this.
    10-03-2013 01:00 PM
  9. cdmjlt369's Avatar
    Something people better think about. They will have your account information. They already have your SSN. They will take from your account, or from your child support, or put a lifetime lean against your tax returns if necessary to get their money. That is if the don't refuse to give you certain care because your age dictates to them that its not worth their money.

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app
    qxr and mrsmumbles like this.
    10-03-2013 02:02 PM
  10. qxr's Avatar
    Something people better think about. They will have your account information. They already have your SSN. They will take from your account, or from your child support, or put a lifetime lean against your tax returns if necessary to get their money. That is if the don't refuse to give you certain care because your age dictates to them that its not worth their money.

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app
    That is a sobering thought.

    Sent from my SCH-I545 using AC Forums mobile app
    cdmjlt369 likes this.
    10-03-2013 03:22 PM
  11. Mooncatt's Avatar
    That is what catastrophic or major medical is for with insurance.
    And actually, a high deductible catastrophic plan is a requirement to have in place before you can do a medical savings account. They are relatively cheap when used right, and offer great benefits. But from the rumblings I've heard, the government is wanting to shut those plans down. You know, how dare the individual take responsibility for their own needs.

    I did have the insurance in place, but not yet the medical savings account when ACA was coming around and my premiums shot up so far I was essentially forced onto a state subsidized plan because everything else cost even more.
    mrsmumbles likes this.
    10-03-2013 04:13 PM
  12. Aquila's Avatar
    If this thread is about a universal healthcare system, wouldn't deductibles and copays, etc. disappear entirely and be replaced with a tax that's less than the current Medicare tax? I know in some countries are are additional out of pocket costs (some things not covered or not fully covered), but there will be here too so that's a wash. I'm curious why the comparison is being made from the US status quo to the ACA rather than comparing to a straight single payer system or another alternative designed to eliminate insurance companies from the equation.

    Obviously the idea of a pure market based approach was introduced as a possible alternative, but it doesn't seem like any of the questions have been seriously answered yet.

    Here's the original post:

    Not Obama care, but general universal health care.
    What is your position?
    Why?
    Have you had an experiences?
    What would change your mind?

    10-03-2013 11:38 PM
  13. palandri's Avatar
    If this thread is about a universal healthcare system, wouldn't deductibles and copays, etc. disappear entirely and be replaced with a tax that's less than the current Medicare tax? I know in some countries are are additional out of pocket costs (some things not covered or not fully covered), but there will be here too so that's a wash. I'm curious why the comparison is being made from the US status quo to the ACA rather than comparing to a straight single payer system or another alternative designed to eliminate insurance companies from the equation.

    Obviously the idea of a pure market based approach was introduced as a possible alternative, but it doesn't seem like any of the questions have been seriously answered yet.

    Here's the original post:




    Private insurance companies wouldn't be able to compete against a government ran not for profit single payer insurance system. We are back to Privately Owned vs Publicly Owned system. If you talk about Publicly Owned, people scream Socialism, it doesn't work, anything the government does it fails at, in Canada people wait for years to just see a doctor, the government decides if your grandmother is worth saving...etc...Let's be honest, if it was that bad, people would revolt against it and change it. At the last Olympics in the UK they had a ceremony about how good their government ran healthcare system was, but if you talk about government ran healthcare in the U.S. you are a dumb, stupid, pinko, commie.

    One problem that still exist is hospital cost. A couple of years ago I was reading a French Travel Forum where a guy didn't buy out of country insurance. He was young and healthy and thought he didn't need it. While he was in France he got appendicitis and had his appendix removed. He was scared to death to see the bill. He thought, 2 days in the hospital and an operation, had to be around $120,000. Well he got the bill and it was $3,500.
    Fairclough likes this.
    10-04-2013 12:21 AM
  14. Aquila's Avatar
    If you talk about Publicly Owned, people scream Socialism, it doesn't work, anything the government does it fails at, in Canada people wait for years to just see a doctor, the government decides if your grandmother is worth saving...etc...
    Based on the initial post I thought that would be the point of this thread. To compare perceptions versus real world experiences with existing programs, dispel myths and discuss what it would take to convert someone either from being in favor of a single payer model to becoming in favor of an insurance model, or vice versa from an insurance model to being in favor of a single payer model.
    palandri likes this.
    10-04-2013 12:33 AM
  15. palandri's Avatar
    Based on the initial post I thought that would be the point of this thread. To compare perceptions versus real world experiences with existing programs, dispel myths and discuss what it would take to convert someone either from being in favor of a single payer model to becoming in favor of an insurance model, or vice versa from an insurance model to being in favor of a single payer model.
    +1 I agree!
    10-04-2013 12:35 AM
  16. Wiley_11's Avatar
    10-04-2013 01:15 AM
  17. qxr's Avatar
    Read the article. Yes, shocking people like free. We cannot afford the ultimate cost of this bill, over 2 trillion dollars.
    This person has chronic medical problems. He states he pays more for medical issues than anything else combined. (His house and car are paid for, that is pretty good.) Heart disease and diabetes require more regular appts. The article does not address this. Further he has no source of income which already made him eligible for medicaid or a disability medicare. Some things in this story do not add up.

    No one has said our system was perfect but obamacare will ruin our system. If all they wanted was to cover uninsured they could have just expanded medicaid. This is about gov't expansion to buy more votes. More over this about personal choice, how you choose to live your life.
    Do we need the gov't knowing our physical condition? Do we trust the same people collecting taxes, who have been caught persecuting groups with differing political opinions, with doctor patient confidentiality. Those irs folks gave away tax returns for people who disagreed with them, what will they do your medical records?
    Has anyone stated what they think is fair to pay for medical treatment? In most of the articles they say how expensive medical care is but they do not say what they think is fair.

    Sent from my SCH-I545 using AC Forums mobile app
    cdmjlt369 and mrsmumbles like this.
    10-04-2013 07:10 AM
  18. Farish's Avatar
    Read the article. Yes, shocking people like free. We cannot afford the ultimate cost of this bill, over 2 trillion dollars.
    This person has chronic medical problems. He states he pays more for medical issues than anything else combined. (His house and car are paid for, that is pretty good.) Heart disease and diabetes require more regular appts. The article does not address this. Further he has no source of income which already made him eligible for medicaid or a disability medicare. Some things in this story do not add up.

    No one has said our system was perfect but obamacare will ruin our system. If all they wanted was to cover uninsured they could have just expanded medicaid. This is about gov't expansion to buy more votes. More over this about personal choice, how you choose to live your life.
    Do we need the gov't knowing our physical condition? Do we trust the same people collecting taxes, who have been caught persecuting groups with differing political opinions, with doctor patient confidentiality. Those irs folks gave away tax returns for people who disagreed with them, what will they do your medical records?
    Has anyone stated what they think is fair to pay for medical treatment? In most of the articles they say how expensive medical care is but they do not say what they think is fair.

    Sent from my SCH-I545 using AC Forums mobile app
    Obamacare will increase the deficit by 6.2 trillion over 75 years.

    Obamacare will also reduce the deficit by 1.5 percent as it relates to GDP over 75 years.

    So far based on these numbers, the Iraq war cost much much more.
    10-04-2013 09:12 AM
  19. qxr's Avatar
    Over 75 years...you must be joking. The omb cannot get the correct costs for 10 years let alone 75. Not to mention they have to use the numbers provided which is how the dems pushed it as budget neutral. Incidentally they intentionally left out the doctor fix so they could keep it under a trillion.
    They lied when they said if you like your insurance you can keep it. And they lied when they said if you like your doctor you can keep them.
    What good are low premiums if you deductible a year is so high you never get the insurance kicking in. Where are the premiums really going?






    Sent from my SCH-I545 using AC Forums mobile app
    cdmjlt369 and mrsmumbles like this.
    10-04-2013 09:49 AM
  20. Scott7217's Avatar
    I have a friend who is fighting breast cancer, she has health insurance. Her surgeries, chemo, and other treatments so far has run around 250K.
    Unfortunately, the ultimate cost saving measure is to have more people die. Of course, the insurance companies still make record profits and give out big bonuses to the CEOs. Something is wrong with that picture.

    I hope your friend gets better. No matter which side of the debate you're on, people shouldn't have to deal with enormous bills while fighting a serious illness like cancer. Things like that shouldn't happen in America, especially for the people who play by the rules, work a steady job, and pay their insurance premiums. People like that deserve better.
    qxr likes this.
    10-04-2013 03:18 PM
  21. Fairclough's Avatar
    Maternity has been and should be a rider. Last I checked getting pregnant isn't an illness. If you want to cover everything then be prepared to pay for it, which is fine, so long as everyone pays the same amount regardless of income. I'm so sick of people talking about others fair share, how about the 50% of the population that pay ZERO federal income tax start pitching in. How about taking a little weight off the top 20% who flip the bill for damn near everything and have two, soon to be three, failing entitlement programs on their back.
    In a Tax system they do pitch in when they have the money. My family was well off before the GFC, we paid out tax's and all. We might not have claimed all the benefits we were entitled from the government as we have our own private ones and still do. Post GFC We hit a series of unfortunate events which dropped assets in some cases by 80%, a series of family evens which sent hundreds of thousands in legal fee's and poor business decisions e.g. to be self employed and leave a secure business. Now I am apart of the lower group, I still pay my tax's, my family does too but if there is a benefit we need - I don't mind claiming it, even if it exceeds how much I paid in tax's prior. Why? because when I have to money and had I paid to save myself for when i don't necessary have the needs of benefits to support myself. If you did your bank system, in my case that would be gone or serious depleted.

    In my life time I have had;
    A Cracked Scull'
    Chopped finger tip off x2
    A wire through my foot (large wire, from bottom through the top and out)
    Inability to walk for a week due to serious internal bruising (Kneed hard is now spine in a rugby game after a tri)
    Calcium Clot in the belly of bicept causing the inability to straighten my arm - blood clot got taken over by calcium.
    Shoulder blade problems

    Total Costs: $30 (I choose to get an extra x-ray done when getting an ultrasound on a blade - Raw costs was $210, Government gave back $180)

    Ironically I find the free health care system, with the option of private (mine is $130 a month for all essentials covered, dental, ambo, pysio + 80% costs of premium services covered) is a lot cheaper than a soul private system, this is going off costs to the government alone.
    If you think your're gonna convince a 28 yr old single guy to pay insurance premiums over a $95 fine you're delusional. The young will still say out unless you make the fine greater than the average cost of a an insurance policy. Then watch the young rise up and vote every liberal congressman out.
    We have a levy for no health insurance, granted you earn over an X amount. I think they are delusional because the cheapest health cover is cheaper than the fine 0_0 atleast here.
    It works well when industry has to compete with governments, its even better when a few insurance companies are not for profit groups. E.g. Read about RAC car insurance, if a profit is declared it all of it is directed into road safety awareness.

    A health savings account can be good. Patients make better choices on their own health care when they can control how their money is spent.
    The indigent would have the same control.

    Sent from my SCH-I545 using AC Forums mobile app
    Actually can you can choose treatment here on a government system.




    Does anyone want any questions about our system here in Australia?
    10-05-2013 06:21 AM
  22. NoYankees44's Avatar
    Lets think about something for a minute. What if we provide wonderful healthcare to every single person in the country. If that bill forces the entire country to go bankrupt or destroys the economy by raises taxes to the point that citizens cannot earn enough to live or companies cannot function profitably, Then is that bill actually going to ultimately accomplish anything?

    You see, we(as a country) has spent ourselves into a very large hole. We do not have the option of a bill like this right now. We just don't. The MATH does not work out. Blame whoever you want. Huff and puff and talk about the injustice of it all. It does not matter. We don't financially have the option.

    When the ACA hits full force, the effects are going to be huge. More businesses oversees. People have to work 2 jobs instead of one for the same pay. Taxes skyrocketing. Basically, if you thought the last economic crisis was bad, you have not seen anything yet. Heck we have not even really recovered from the last crash. Passing something like this right now is beyond irresponsible. Its down right stupid. I don't care how "fair" the current system is. The current system allows the economy and country to still function. Until we dig out of our current mess, that is all that matters.
    qxr likes this.
    10-05-2013 12:57 PM
  23. Farish's Avatar
    Over 75 years...you must be joking. The omb cannot get the correct costs for 10 years let alone 75. Not to mention they have to use the numbers provided which is how the dems pushed it as budget neutral. Incidentally they intentionally left out the doctor fix so they could keep it under a trillion.
    They lied when they said if you like your insurance you can keep it. And they lied when they said if you like your doctor you can keep them.
    What good are low premiums if you deductible a year is so high you never get the insurance kicking in. Where are the premiums really going?






    Sent from my SCH-I545 using AC Forums mobile app
    These are the numbers the Republicans were using recently. They just left out the deficit reduction part.

    Lets think about something for a minute. What if we provide wonderful healthcare to every single person in the country. If that bill forces the entire country to go bankrupt or destroys the economy by raises taxes to the point that citizens cannot earn enough to live or companies cannot function profitably, Then is that bill actually going to ultimately accomplish anything?

    You see, we(as a country) has spent ourselves into a very large hole. We do not have the option of a bill like this right now. We just don't. The MATH does not work out. Blame whoever you want. Huff and puff and talk about the injustice of it all. It does not matter. We don't financially have the option.

    When the ACA hits full force, the effects are going to be huge. More businesses oversees. People have to work 2 jobs instead of one for the same pay. Taxes skyrocketing. Basically, if you thought the last economic crisis was bad, you have not seen anything yet. Heck we have not even really recovered from the last crash. Passing something like this right now is beyond irresponsible. Its down right stupid. I don't care how "fair" the current system is. The current system allows the economy and country to still function. Until we dig out of our current mess, that is all that matters.
    The current mess will never be fixed with our current political environment. The only way a fix will happen is when a Super Majority takes over the Congress and White House, and that doesn't guarantee we will like that fix. And the way things are going by 2016 we will probably have the same makeup again with the White House, Senate being Democrat and the House being Republican. Even if the Republicans win the White House in 2016, the Democrats will probably do the same thing in the Senate that the Republicans are doing in the House.
    10-05-2013 01:36 PM
  24. qxr's Avatar
    These are the numbers the Republicans were using recently. They just left out the deficit reduction part.



    The current mess will never be fixed with our current political environment. The only way a fix will happen is when a Super Majority takes over the Congress and White House, and that doesn't guarantee we will like that fix. And the way things are going by 2016 we will probably have the same makeup again with the White House, Senate being Democrat and the House being Republican. Even if the Republicans win the White House in 2016, the Democrats will probably do the same thing in the Senate that the Republicans are doing in the House.
    So the fact that senator reid did not bring a budget to the senate floor for a vote for over 4 years is not the dems fault. One of the worst rules in the senate is the power the power wielded by the majority leader.
    A super majority gave us this bill and you saw how the dems handled it. Ramming it down our throats using reconciliation, formerly only used for budgetary bills never used for a major piece of legislation. We have to pass it to find out what's in it but fyi we exempted ourselves and our staff. Thank you,
    no, I do not want to see another super majority like the last one.
    You know the repubs have changed to just delay the bill like the employers mandate is. Where are the dems willing to compromise? Why are the only waivers going to big business and unions? What about us?
    Where does the pres. Get the authority to willy nilly change the law,(not his power) but the body in charge of legislation does not.
    Further where us the outcry over the rhetoric being used by dem congress menbers and the pres. No guns are being held to anyone's head and the word j!had spoken on the house floor. There is no excuse. If repubs had used language like that repubs would have been called out by members of their own party, let alone the media. Where are the dems' spine?

    Sent from my SCH-I545 using AC Forums mobile app
    mrsmumbles likes this.
    10-05-2013 08:30 PM
  25. msndrstood's Avatar
    Nope, passed by a filibuster proof 60 votes in the Senate, not by reconciliation.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patie...dable_Care_Act

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3 now Free
    10-05-2013 08:53 PM
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