11-14-2013 07:34 PM
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  1. Aquila's Avatar
    I have no proof either, but that seems to be the general consensus this law setup to fail. If you remember back when all this first started, it was thrown about that they're goal was single payer but they couldn't get enough support for it. Many people thought that this ACA was just a stepping stone. That's one of the many reasons a lot of people don't like the bill.
    It is a pretty weird first step, and I'd have a very hard time believing it. Many people thing this is sourced from Romney's healthcare plan in MA (which most of it is, heavily borrowed from that), but this plan was brought up several times in the 70's and 80's as the corporate right wing's opposition to a massive expansion of medicare. It's funny how our perspective has changed that this is the "super lib" plan.
    10-21-2013 11:21 AM
  2. llamabreath's Avatar
    Middle class is a really funny term. Most people think that they're in it, but if our choices are impoverished class, working class, middle class, executive class and upper class.... people in the middle class are generally professionals, highly skilled tradesmen, very small business owners, most attorneys, physicians, etc. According to studies, the middle class tends to be college educated, live in the suburbs, own multiple vehicles and own or have a mortgage on their home. That doesn't describe most of the people that I encounter that identify as members of the group.

    While politicians clearly do not care about the middle class, regardless of what adjective it's attached to, the term is thrown around as too encompassing from a statistical point of view.

    According to 2011 data, those living below the poverty level constituted about 8% of the population, with the "working class" representing the next 22%, the middle class holding 30%, the executive class at 33% and the upper class at 10%, from a distribution standpoint. I could deal with that pretty well as the central groups are all fairly similar in size and the ends are similar. My issue seems to be entirely on the usage of the term, because it appears that something much closer to all three of the center three groups, or around 80% of the country self identifies as "middle class" and/or is referred to that way by media, politicians etc when the majority, 65% of them, are in fact in a different segment that is rarely addressed. If middle class just means, "not starving to death and does not own a jet".... derp, why exactly do we want to make that class disappear?

    /end rant
    Thanks for the stats. It's good to see some real numbers (even though they don't reflect my opinion).



    Signatures, shmignatures...
    10-21-2013 12:36 PM
  3. palandri's Avatar
    He may be over the line for qualification?

    Or maybe he is just the type of person that does not like being reliant on others. Maybe he likes to work for all he has instead of taking the government freebee that just destroyed the insurance he enjoyed.

    The ones this law is going to hurt the most are the middle class Americans. The ones just over the line of being able to get the "public option"(i am not even sure if that is appropriate verbiage at this point). Premiums for all private insurance are sky rocketing and have no signs of getting better.

    And for the people just bellow the line, the government just effectively took away all choice for private insurance.

    This is all intelligent design. The writers of the law knew all of this would happen
    That's why I am asking him. It's always good to get the facts. Maybe I am not reading or understanding his story of sacrifices correctly.
    10-21-2013 12:49 PM
  4. palandri's Avatar
    Noble, honorable and hard-working....

    Hardly the qualities to look up to anymore, right?

    The rapid degradation of this society is eye-opening.
    So was that the point of his biography? Bullet points would have made it much easier to understand.
    10-21-2013 12:59 PM
  5. llamabreath's Avatar
    So was that the point of his biography? Bullet points would have made it much easier to understand.
    What was so difficult to understand?


    Signatures, shmignatures...
    10-21-2013 01:11 PM
  6. palandri's Avatar
    What was so difficult to understand?
    The whole biography. What was the point? From your response, he was showing how noble, honorable and hard-working he is. Is that the point?
    10-21-2013 01:19 PM
  7. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    Thanks for the stats. It's good to see some real numbers (even though they don't reflect my opinion).



    Signatures, shmignatures...
    Shouldn't opinions change in light of new facts that weren't previously known and/or understood?

    Sent from my HP SlateBook 10 x2 PC using Tapatalk 4
    craZDude likes this.
    10-21-2013 01:23 PM
  8. plumbrich's Avatar
    NoYankees44 hit it on the head for the most part.

    Other parts are I just had surgery out of work 12 weeks but spine will not be completely grown together and 100% for 4 to 6 months. Do not believe I should drop my insurance which is paying well before the spine is completely healed.
    I am sure after all is healed I will have to look into paying the extra or looking for other alternatives. Before I would look at ACA I would have tried all I can to stay on private health care from more paying jobs to cutting out other expenses.

    It is all about perceptive is correct, working out of town coming home every 3 weeks for 1-1/2 years afforded my children a more comfortable life and I was able to have funds to start a business. I sold that business in 2000 even though I was doing fairly well. A larger company approached me and it happened to be at a time I was trying to figure out my kids college future. With negotiating I was able to obtain enough profit to send them to college but leaving me none. Since then I have worked as a Job foreman and superintendant for large commercial construction. As a parent I have tried to make my decisions based on my kids and their future. Both are grown and have college degrees with a strong work ethic and ask nothing from me but always ask what can they do for me.

    I am one of the ones that believe ACA is just a stepping stone along with a few other programs in the way there implemented.

    I was poor then middle class now working class. You are correct most people in the poor to working class believe they are middle class. I complain here but over all while being poor middle or working class I have been happy with my life and continue to be.

    Palandri is correct I ramble too much for this type of media. If I continue to post will try to keep to just 1 small paragraph.
    10-21-2013 01:26 PM
  9. Aquila's Avatar
    Personally I like long posts better than sound bytes by a lot.

    XT1060. Through spacetime.
    10-21-2013 01:32 PM
  10. llamabreath's Avatar
    Shouldn't opinions change in light of new facts that weren't previously known and/or understood?

    Sent from my HP SlateBook 10 x2 PC using Tapatalk 4
    Yes, but I'm kinda stubborn.

    Signatures, shmignatures...
    10-21-2013 01:34 PM
  11. Aquila's Avatar
    I did see a poster today with some interesting info on the entitlement lifestyle. In testimony before the House Ways and Means Committee, Subcommittee on Human Resources, it was stated that, in an "average" year, about 1/2 of the AFDC caseloads leave the welfare rolls. The majority of families who leave the welfare system, do so after a relatively short period of time. About half leave within a year; 70% within two years and almost 90% within five years.

    This leaves a total of about 10% who are either completely incapable of escaping or who are the "bums" abusing the system. That churn rate might not be ideal, but it sure cut down my perception of that program being in any way a high priority item. This based on welfare accounting for roughly 11% of our expected 2014 spending and if up to 5% are abusing the system, that's still barely more than .5% of the budget going out the door to minnie the moocher. Fixing that problem would take a lot of hurting regular people who are doing the right things to get back on their feet in order to punish a tiny number of people with no cost recovery available for justification. That's called vindictive. We definitely have much better budgetary opportunities to reduce the deficit and debt.

    Here's an interesting tool you can play with: Build A Better Budget

    Just about every one of us can make a budget that covers all the expenses and still has money left over to pay down the debt. It is funny, that on step 1 "Revenue", the revenue plans are so close to each other (-3% to 7% compared to the Office of Management and Budget plan), yet there is so much bickering about how "different" they are. Especially on the corporate tax issue, given that it's 7% of revenue. We could double them, our revenue would go up by less than 10%. We could eliminate them entirely, our revenue would go down by less than 10%. Why fight to the death over +-10%? That's called silly.
    msndrstood and craZDude like this.
    10-22-2013 03:24 AM
  12. alexlam24's Avatar
    Why can't the queen of England just come fire everyone in congress....

    Sent from the last HTC device with a removable battery on T-Mobile
    10-22-2013 06:28 AM
  13. Fairclough's Avatar
    Why can't the queen of England just come fire everyone in congress....

    Sent from the last HTC device with a removable battery on T-Mobile
    Queen in monarch structures very very rarely steps in. We have only had 1 real action by the governor general (rep of the queen, appointed by the gov - generally a former lawyer) and that was due to a minority government getting its legislation blocked, she gave power to the opposition and forced an election.

    I think they didn't sign off on my state coming a separate nation too, or we just didn't go a head with it.

    - Android Central App. Remember courage is contagious.
    10-22-2013 07:48 AM
  14. alexlam24's Avatar
    Queen in monarch structures very very rarely steps in. We have only had 1 real action by the governor general (rep of the queen, appointed by the gov - generally a former lawyer) and that was due to a minority government getting its legislation blocked, she gave power to the opposition and forced an election.

    I think they didn't sign off on my state coming a separate nation too, or we just didn't go a head with it.

    - Android Central App. Remember courage is contagious.
    I know lol, I'm just talking about what would happen

    Sent from the last HTC device with a removable battery on T-Mobile
    10-22-2013 07:56 AM
  15. JW4VZW's Avatar
    While it goes against the spirit of democracy, there is a lot of truth to this.

    It has to do with invested interest. If you pay nothing in, you have no invested interest in the success of the whatever you are talking about past the benefits you receive from it. It is like living is someone else's house for free. You benefit from being there and you pay nothing for being there, but have a say in the finances of the house. Why would you want to "vote" to pay for being there when you could "vote" for more of the house's finances to go to yourself?

    You could use the same analogy with receiving benefits from a companies profits and having a vote as a share holder without actually owning a sake in that company. You have no investment, but you are still receiving benefits, thus you are not going to "vote" to protect and increase the money you put in. You are only going to "vote" for more benefits for yourself because if the company fails, you have lost nothing.

    Obviously this goes against a lot of what the country stands for, but so does many laws in place already arguably.

    Democracy will cease to exist when the people realize they can bribe themselves with their own money. Democracy has long sense been dead when majority of the "people's" money is paid by the minority of the people.

    Foot note: yes i realize that we have a representative republic and not a true democracy.
    In a way, that does make perfect sense, NoYankees44. For example, I do not own stock in Apple. Why should I attempt to tell them how to run their business? However, if I did own stock in Apple, then I would have an invested interest. It works in the corporate environment, so it is possible that it could work for the government. Like I told Serial Fordicator, "In a way that makes sense. I am not sure that I agree with it one hundred percent, but I can see where it might work. "
    10-22-2013 03:49 PM
  16. JW4VZW's Avatar
    What would be your guaranteed way of preventing all fraud in voting?

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
    Photo ID seems to be the most effective measure against voter fraud. I can't think of why anyone would not be for something that would greatly reduce, if not eliminate, fraudulent votes...unless they were a democrat.
    mrsmumbles likes this.
    10-22-2013 04:03 PM
  17. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    Photo ID seems to be the most effective measure against voter fraud. I can't think of why anyone would not be for something that would greatly reduce, if not eliminate, fraudulent votes...unless they were a democrat.
    Sure can't fake ID's right?

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
    10-22-2013 04:21 PM
  18. llamabreath's Avatar
    Sure can't fake ID's right?

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
    Then how about using fingerprints?

    Signatures, shmignatures...
    10-22-2013 04:29 PM
  19. msndrstood's Avatar
    Then how about using fingerprints?

    Signatures, shmignatures...
    Ask Apple how those fingerprint scanners are doing.

    Sorry, had to do it.

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    CR6 likes this.
    10-22-2013 04:42 PM
  20. cdmjlt369's Avatar
    I like photo id's. I think EBT cards should have them as well. I know people fake them but just because people do that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to fix the cracks.

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app
    10-22-2013 05:10 PM
  21. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    Then how about using fingerprints?

    Signatures, shmignatures...
    So you're ok with the government having a record of every citizens fingerprint? That's worse than requiring id's.

    If the numbers are true (the actual proven numbers, not those inflated ones) then I think we're doing good on voter fraud. Anything done by humans will never be 100%

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
    10-22-2013 05:11 PM
  22. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    I like photo id's. I think EBT cards sbould have them as well. I know people fake them but just because people do that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to fix the cracks.

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app
    Do you also propose we fix gerrymandering? I think that's more broken than any voter fraud, whether real or conspiracy. Depending on your definition of fraud it's worse.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
    msndrstood likes this.
    10-22-2013 05:13 PM
  23. mrsmumbles's Avatar
    I like photo id's. I think EBT cards should have them as well. I know people fake them but just because people do that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to fix the cracks.

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app
    They have photo ID cards in NY but not in Chicago. Even in NY people cheat though, unfortunately.

    Sent from my C5170 via Tapatalk 2
    10-22-2013 05:24 PM
  24. Aquila's Avatar
    Voter fraud via preventing legal votes and the value of those cast is obviously far worse of an issue than fraud via identity theft. Any reform should address both issues proportional to their ability to derail.

    XT1060. Through spacetime.
    mrsmumbles likes this.
    10-22-2013 05:54 PM
  25. mrsmumbles's Avatar
    Voter fraud via preventing legal votes and the value of those cast is obviously far worse of an issue than fraud via identity theft. Any reform should address both issues proportional to their ability to derail.

    XT1060. Through spacetime.
    I'm in a very liberal area and state and I got a letter from the voting thing this spring asking whether I plan to live here or vote here. I've been living here for 3 years and I voted in 2010 and 2012. There was something weird about getting that letter and now I'll have to register again. I'd register as an independent but then I can't vote in primaries. If I register as a democrat maybe I won't be harassed and I can still vote in primaries.

    Sent from my LG870 via Tapatalk 2
    10-22-2013 06:56 PM
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