11-14-2013 07:34 PM
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  1. llamabreath's Avatar
    So you're unwilling to accept that there are times where circumstances can make everything you said not possible? Or highly unlikely to happen?

    Some people can't get out of the hole no matter how many good decisions they make.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
    Of course there are some people that have the responsible mindset, but still can't get out of that hole.... but more often than not, it's a culture of dependency and expectation, instead of self-reliance and independence.



    Sent via a pay phone at the gas station.
    CR6 and mrsmumbles like this.
    10-12-2013 06:12 PM
  2. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    Of course there are some people that have the responsible mindset, but still can't get out of that hole.... but more often than not, it's a culture of dependency and expectation, instead of self-reliance and independence.



    Sent via a pay phone at the gas station.
    I know people on both sides of that fence, both "rich" and "poor", but somehow people only care about the poor having that attitude.

    Is part of it, maybe, greed? "I made this. It's mine. I don't need it all, but nobody else can have it."

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
    10-12-2013 06:18 PM
  3. NoYankees44's Avatar
    So you're unwilling to accept that there are times where circumstances can make everything you said not possible? Or highly unlikely to happen?

    Some people can't get out of the hole no matter how many good decisions they make.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
    No I can accept that. Sometimes circumstances a insurmountable. That where family and friends come in. And when that is not possible, there are government programs.

    I am not heartless or unforgiving. I just believe in taking responsibility for your self and those around you. I don't like paying for someone else's poor decisions. The tax payer or government should be the last place someone turns for help, but unfortunately I see time and time again it is the first place.
    CR6 likes this.
    10-12-2013 06:19 PM
  4. Aquila's Avatar
    No you live within you means and save for rainy days. Life happens. Sometimes life happens a lot. But as long as you are continually increasing your skill set and prepare for bad times, you should be fine. And when your not fine, hopefully you have surrounded yourself with people that are willing to help.

    Basically be prepared enough to live for a couple of months on savings. That should be more than enough time to make arrangements to move or downsize or whatever lifestyle changes need to be made. The more extravagant your lifestyle is, the more you need to save. There is no reason to live on nothing when you don't have to, but at the same time there is no reason to live like you are rich and never save for bad times.
    I will say that a couple of months won't cut it. It doesn't take an economist to understand that a debt based society is not sustainable and that an economizing capitalistic market is incompatible with a paradigm of unlimited single family earners. In short, the markets are not coming back.

    For my situation specifically, I'll say that in 2012 when I bought my house, including the mortgage my entire debt expenditure was about 28% of my take home income, about 18% of gross. Most people would agree that is a perfectly acceptable debt to income level, as it allows the majority of income to be saved, invested, spent on activities, etc. 2 months later I found out that 22 people in my department were being downsized. It only took about 90 days to begin employment at a new place (moving is not an option, I don't have the cash reserves to lose 40% market value on my house not including moving expenses, etc). There's literally no way for us to move to a better job market until around 2016 without me throwing $50-$70k out the window. That's cash I don't have due to severely depleting savings to keep afloat and reduce debt during the 90 days. The market for me to move sideways or up literally doesn't exist here. I'm a 4 hour drive from the nearest realistic job market. If we'd have learned two months sooner (prior to closing) that I was going to be changing positions, I'd have been 90% liquid and we could have moved across the country the next day.

    I now work about 20% more hours for a little better than a 1/3 of what I earned previously. With my new salary, after paying off some debt (my wife's student loans, etc), less total money in terms of volume is going out the door to debt, but it now takes up 63% of my take home pay, and we're reliant on my wife working to keep above water. Me picking up a 2nd job is not an option because my contract will be terminated, but another $800-$1300 a month take home isn't going to pay for the daycare cost that increasing my hours from 50-65 to 90-105 per week would require. Another obvious effect is that me and 21 other people are contributing about a million less to the economy each year.

    Obviously as soon as I have enough equity to make moving viable in conjunction with relocation, that's a good idea, but it takes time to get there. The experience I have is no longer sufficient and I also need to continue my education in order to compete against the new market. That's the impact of ridiculous unemployment rates. Those rates are never going to come down. A drive for lower costs will always lead to a drive for lower costs, automated processes, streamlining, etc. What once took a team will soon take a person. What once took a person, will soon take an hour out of a hybrid role's day.

    In the professional market this is just as true, and that's what my job is: analytics and strategy management. I find opportunities to optimize. A big part of that is automating repetitive tasks on a massive scale, reducing errors, reducing human interface. The result is increased competition for what remains. Lagging not far behind that competition is an unsustainable consumer debt to purchase self diminishing cycle. An unstoppable force. We need to rethink the entire concept.

    I'm not whining or complaining, I have a pretty specific road map to get back to where I want my family to be and it's going fairly well, but it's not anywhere near as simple as, "just pick up a 2nd job" or "work harder".
    10-12-2013 06:44 PM
  5. llamabreath's Avatar
    I know people on both sides of that fence, both "rich" and "poor", but somehow people only care about the poor having that attitude.

    Is part of it, maybe, greed? "I made this. It's mine. I don't need it all, but nobody else can have it."

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
    If they made it, it IS theirs.
    Yeah, there are greedy people, just as there are leeches.

    We need....

    Oops, wife needs me to make her a grilled cheese.. gotta go for now... DAMMIT!





    Sent via a pay phone at the gas station.
    10-12-2013 06:47 PM
  6. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    If they made it, it IS theirs.
    Yeah, there are greedy people, just as there are leeches.

    We need....

    Oops, wife needs me to make her a grilled cheese.. gotta go for now... DAMMIT!





    •• Sent via a pay phone at the gas station.
    Yep. So we just let those "leeches" live in poverty, or get sick and die from things that are treatable, or starve? Or whatever would apply to people that don't have the means to take care of themselves?

    My bigger question I guess is, what happened to just generally helping each other out? Picking those less fortunate than we might be up and giving a helping hand?
    Fairclough and msndrstood like this.
    10-12-2013 07:32 PM
  7. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    And I'm also not saying that I do see and even agree to a point with the "i made it, it's mine" mentality. It just comes across to me as greedy when said like that.

    Don't forget, even the land you live on can be "reclaimed" by the government if they deem it necessary. Deed or not.
    10-12-2013 07:34 PM
  8. llamabreath's Avatar
    Yep. So we just let those "leeches" live in poverty, or get sick and die from things that are treatable, or starve? Or whatever would apply to people that don't have the means to take care of themselves?

    My bigger question I guess is, what happened to just generally helping each other out? Picking those less fortunate than we might be up and giving a helping hand?
    I never said that poor people are automatically leeches. And there are plenty of rich people that donate to needy people anonymously.

    Does 'rich' automatically mean jackhole? No.
    Does 'poor' automatically mean leech? No.

    There is also the growing problem of a rapidly shrinking middle-class. If that can be rectified, I think that would put us all on the right track.



    Sent via a pay phone at the gas station.
    10-12-2013 07:50 PM
  9. Aquila's Avatar
    There is also the growing problem of a rapidly shrinking middle-class
    An unstoppable force. We need to rethink the entire concept.
    10-12-2013 07:52 PM
  10. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    Does 'rich' automatically mean jackhole? No.
    Does 'poor' automatically mean leech? No.
    I didn't say that....

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
    10-12-2013 07:57 PM
  11. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    I never said that poor people are automatically leeches. And there are plenty of rich people that donate to needy people anonymously.

    Does 'rich' automatically mean jackhole? No.
    Does 'poor' automatically mean leech? No.

    There is also the growing problem of a rapidly shrinking middle-class. If that can be rectified, I think that would put us all on the right track.



    Sent via a pay phone at the gas station.
    What if the donations aren't enough? (Hint: they aren't)

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
    10-12-2013 07:58 PM
  12. Serial Fordicator's Avatar
    Why should I donate? A guy was telling me, that his church raised money for a single mom and her kids by doing a carwash. When they met the mother and the children he was very angry. The shoes one of the kids were wearing were Nike that cost over $100. I would have been upset too.

    I'm in Canada working 7 nights a week, 13 hours a night. I have no college education and grew up poor. Anyone can be successful, but it won't happen by getting things given to them. It sure as hell isn't going to happen overnight. The safety net always turns into a hammock. With that said I work all over the US and Canada for months at a time. I have to sacrifice being away from home and my family to make an living. Why should I feel sorry for anyone that is too lazy to try or too good to work at a McDonalds? Am I greedy because I don't want to give a future democrat more of my money? The number one problem among the poor in the US is obesity. Poor in the US isn't measured by the same standard in other countries. It's measured by "I can't afford a new Iphone, but I have the 3GS and the phone bill/data with it. I can afford cable/satellite TV. I can afford internet. I can afford a car payment. I can afford tobacco. I can afford Marijuana. I can afford to get my nails done. But, I cant afford my own groceries or healthcare."

    We have a cultural problem that needs changed. We don't have a hunger problem. The only hunger problem we have in America, is the hunger to better yourself. It is looked down upon to be successful. People are jealous and expect to make what the owner of a company makes. I remember as a kid, my dad telling me "You see Mr. Johnson in that nice car of his, if you work hard, one day you have be the same." Nowdays "Look at Mr. Johnson in that car. He got his money from his parents and didn't earn it" or "He makes all the money illegally." When the person talking doesn't know Jack and is just jealous. We use to be a country of steely eyed missile men, who looked toward the horizon. It was the best person for the job. Now, everyone thinks socialism is great until they realize they have to give up something of theirs. It's always better for someone else to pay for something though, isn't it?
    CR6 and mrsmumbles like this.
    10-12-2013 10:55 PM
  13. Aquila's Avatar
    Why should I donate? A guy was telling me, that his church raised money for a single mom and her kids by doing a carwash. When they met the mother and the children he was very angry. The shoes one of the kids were wearing were Nike that cost over $100. I would have been upset too.
    Are you saying they should have sold those shoes for food? Or what? There's nothing in that anecdote to indicate that they were witnessed purchasing the shoes brand new. They could have also been donated, could have been a gift from friends or family, could have been bequeathed from a classmate, purchased from Goodwill 2nd or 3rd hand, they could have even been stolen.

    In many cases it's financially easier to handle a lease on a new Mercedes than to finance a new Ford, both of which might be easier to handle than buying a quality used car. Obviously there are a variety of factors that are unique to each situation, but while I get how once the "injustice" is perceived, it's hard to let it go... there's nothing to indicate that the perception was correct and that perception, or predjudice is just as much a part of the problem as actual abuses of people's generosity. Because in any of the listed possibilities, the only two that are actual "abuses" are if the shoes were bought outright for over $100 or if they were stolen. It's also possible the shoes were purchased a year prior to the hardship and have just been maintained well. I'm not a shoe expert, and I assume your friend isn't either.

    To raise it to an adult scenario, it is absolutely necessary to look professional when seeking employment and sometimes other things have to be sacrificed in order to maintain the appearance of sucecss. Maybe the parent chose to forego something for themselves in order to make their child happy and help them project an image of being okay. Maybe they made a poor decision due to being foolish, rather than being malicious and trying to "pull one over" on generous community members.

    It'd be very sad if that stops you or your friend from considering helping people in the future. It's very hard to tell who actually needs it and who could skate by without your help, but part of being a society is giving people the benefit of the doubt as much as possible, kind of an innocent until proven guilty type of thing. There is a whole lot of reasonable doubt here.
    10-13-2013 12:53 AM
  14. kingseanrocks's Avatar
    I think the republicans need to get their heads out of their asses Obamas not going to budge on obamacare

    Sent from my SCH-M828C using AC Forums mobile app
    10-13-2013 01:01 AM
  15. Aquila's Avatar
    We have a cultural problem that needs changed.
    I'd 100% agree that we have a very poor decision making paradigm as a society, but I'm inclined to think it's because of a lack of education and enlightenment, rather than an intentionally malicious and selfish society. On the flip side, pitting us against each other, coupled with an unlimited series of debt and distraction cycles is a fairly effective way of maintaining control over a population that is literally fighting for the dumbing down that they pay to have fed to them.
    mrsmumbles likes this.
    10-13-2013 01:06 AM
  16. Serial Fordicator's Avatar
    Are you saying they should have sold those shoes for food? Or what? There's nothing in that anecdote to indicate that they were witnessed purchasing the shoes brand new. They could have also been donated, could have been a gift from friends or family, could have been bequeathed from a classmate, purchased from Goodwill 2nd or 3rd hand, they could have even been stolen.

    In many cases it's financially easier to handle a lease on a new Mercedes than to finance a new Ford, both of which might be easier to handle than buying a quality used car. Obviously there are a variety of factors that are unique to each situation, but while I get how once the "injustice" is perceived, it's hard to let it go... there's nothing to indicate that the perception was correct and that perception, or predjudice is just as much a part of the problem as actual abuses of people's generosity. Because in any of the listed possibilities, the only two that are actual "abuses" are if the shoes were bought outright for over $100 or if they were stolen. It's also possible the shoes were purchased a year prior to the hardship and have just been maintained well. I'm not a shoe expert, and I assume your friend isn't either.

    To raise it to an adult scenario, it is absolutely necessary to look professional when seeking employment and sometimes other things have to be sacrificed in order to maintain the appearance of sucecss. Maybe the parent chose to forego something for themselves in order to make their child happy and help them project an image of being okay. Maybe they made a poor decision due to being foolish, rather than being malicious and trying to "pull one over" on generous community members.

    It'd be very sad if that stops you or your friend from considering helping people in the future. It's very hard to tell who actually needs it and who could skate by without your help, but part of being a society is giving people the benefit of the doubt as much as possible, kind of an innocent until proven guilty type of thing. There is a whole lot of reasonable doubt here.
    My biggest complaint is how can someone ask for help, if they buy their kids $100 pair of shoes. I also choose not to help anymore due to 1. the high amount of taxes I pay and 2. The U.S. is not a third world country (yet). Anyone who says they can't find a job, is hard to believe. I can find anyone a job, it might not be the job they want, but if you want to eat or pay bills, sometimes you have to work. I'm tired of the let's pop out a tit and put it in someones mouth.
    10-13-2013 01:41 AM
  17. Wiley_11's Avatar
    Without knowing how money is created and managed, all other topics concerning money are out of context. This is crucial: regarding trillions of dollars of economic power, you have no idea where money comes from.

    It’s time for you to learn.

    Debt-damned economics: learn monetary reform or kiss your assets goodbye. 1 of 2 - National Nonpartisan | Examiner.com
    10-13-2013 01:47 AM
  18. kingseanrocks's Avatar
    My biggest complaint is how can someone ask for help, if they buy their kids $100 pair of shoes. I also choose not to help anymore due to 1. the high amount of taxes I pay and 2. The U.S. is not a third world country (yet). Anyone who says they can't find a job, is hard to believe. I can find anyone a job, it might not be the job they want, but if you want to eat or pay bills, sometimes you have to work. I'm tired of the let's pop out a tit and put it in someones mouth.
    I agree with you on some parts but there are people who no one wants to hire for example homeless people can apply for plently of jobs but no one wants to hire them when there the ones that need the most help

    Sent from my SCH-M828C using AC Forums mobile app
    10-13-2013 01:56 AM
  19. Aquila's Avatar
    My biggest complaint is how can someone ask for help, if they buy their kids $100 pair of shoes.
    But as I pointed out, there is no way of knowing who purchased the shoes and/or when. It's pretty dangerous to assume that everyone who is down on their luck is also trying to screw you personally over.

    I can find anyone a job, it might not be the job they want, but if you want to eat or pay bills, sometimes you have to work.
    As for the job market, the factors involved in career choices are much more than filling out applications for Mc Donalds, especially when children are involved. A part time job at Mc Donalds will not pay for daycare, let alone rent or a mortgage (mortgage is usually cheaper than rent), transportation or food. A typical fast food employee takes home around $140 per week. A person would be hard pressed to survive on that living single, let alone trying to raise a family. You can't lose a Wall Street job and pick up a spatula, it just won't work. Everyone can look at their current expenses, cut out the unnecessary stuff and see exactly how much they need to net to survive. It's not difficult at all to do the math and see that there are some people who would go bankrupt if they accepted a job that was less than $18.00/hr average, and some people for whom that number is $85/hr.

    At a previous job I did analytics for an accounts receivable firm. The data there indicates that it is not uncommon to encounter people who would be WORSE off if they accepted a minimum wage job than if they relied on public assistance. In my opinion, those individuals are best served by going to school, rather than joining the workforce. With unemployment (actual unemployment, not the published numbers) still being in double digits, and much higher than that for unskilled workers, it's obvious why they're having trouble finding GAINFUL employment.

    These situations are not black and white and no one in society exists in a vacuum. The Tea Party God Reagan is credited with saying, "we can't help everyone, but everyone can help someone". That's how community works. I'm NOT saying YOU HAVE TO help anyone, but pretending that there are not people that can use help is somewhat strange.

    I also do not want a culture of dependence, but one of interdependence. I do my job which makes products flow across North America with greater efficiency, which keeps your grocery costs low(ish) and helps stave off inflation. You do your job, which ... circle of life, helps me somehow. It doesn't have to be direct, but everything we do IS interconnected.
    msndrstood likes this.
    10-13-2013 02:04 AM
  20. Aquila's Avatar
    I agree with you on some parts but there are people who no one wants to hire for example homeless people can apply for plently of jobs but no one wants to hire them when there the ones that need the most help

    Sent from my SCH-M828C using AC Forums mobile app
    Getting a job while you're unemployed is very difficult. Getting a job without an address, a great resume, a positive attitude, a healthy and professional appearance, a callback number and e-mail address and/or a reliable way of getting to and from work on time is pretty much walking backwards up a mountain. There are 400 other people applying for the same job, most of which are currently employed, and thus automatically favored.
    msndrstood likes this.
    10-13-2013 02:06 AM
  21. Serial Fordicator's Avatar
    At a previous job I did analytics for an accounts receivable firm. The data there indicates that it is not uncommon to encounter people who would be WORSE off if they accepted a minimum wage job than if they relied on public assistance. In my opinion, those individuals are best served by going to school, rather than joining the workforce. With unemployment (actual unemployment, not the published numbers) still being in double digits, and much higher than that for unskilled workers, it's obvious why they're having trouble finding GAINFUL employment.
    This is part of the problem. They have no incentive to find a job. Why should they if they can make the same money from public assistance that normal people make $15 an hour to make the same. We spend 1 trillion a year on welfare. Welfare SHOULD be temporary, not a career choice.
    plumbrich likes this.
    10-13-2013 02:20 AM
  22. Aquila's Avatar
    This is part of the problem. They have no incentive to find a job. Why should they if they can make the same money from public assistance that normal people make $15 an hour to make the same. We spend 1 trillion a year on welfare. Welfare SHOULD be temporary, not a career choice.
    I agree. The "how" to solve that is pretty difficult to get consensus on, because as a culture we're pretty adverse to the idea of just cutting people off and letting them and their children starve to death, but we also can't hold their hand and make sure that they're picking a wise collegiate course load, attending classes and getting top marks. Where's the balance? Who's watching children while they're attending classes? What if they're just not intelligent enough to join the professional workforce?

    Would we rather pay for their mistakes in the form of higher interest rates for our loans and higher consumer costs or in the form of taxes? Assuming it's approximately the same amount of money out of my pocket, I really don't care that much. If they declare bankruptcy, we all pay that. If they stay afloat, we all pay that. When they get back on their feet, they start paying to help people in their former shoes out. It's definitely not perfect, but I think we'd agree one way or another, short of us literally letting them die, we're going to cover the costs and we'd like to do so in a more efficient and productive manner.
    10-13-2013 02:25 AM
  23. llamabreath's Avatar
    I agree. The "how" to solve that is pretty difficult to get consensus on, because as a culture we're pretty adverse to the idea of just cutting people off and letting them and their children starve to death, but we also can't hold their hand and make sure that they're picking a wise collegiate course load, attending classes and getting top marks. Where's the balance? Who's watching children while they're attending classes? What if they're just not intelligent enough to join the professional workforce?

    Would we rather pay for their mistakes in the form of higher interest rates for our loans and higher consumer costs or in the form of taxes? Assuming it's approximately the same amount of money out of my pocket, I really don't care that much. If they declare bankruptcy, we all pay that. If they stay afloat, we all pay that. When they get back on their feet, they start paying to help people in their former shoes out. It's definitely not perfect, but I think we'd agree one way or another, short of us literally letting them die, we're going to cover the costs and we'd like to do so in a more efficient and productive manner.
    Most of these people consider seven kids by four different fathers (three incarcerated, one killed in a drive-by) to be a normal life and being in jail or killing or being ghetto-fabulous with the latest this, the latest that and getting over on 'the man' is GLORIFIED every. waking. moment. of their materialistic lives.

    They don't see this to be a problem.
    While we are sitting here typing up thought-provoking, in-depth discussions, they are on their back, smoking weed and talking about the next Jordan's coming out, baby daddys, baby mamas and how to get a Chrysler 300. THEY don't see a problem in any of that.


    Sent via a pay phone at the gas station.
    10-13-2013 03:56 AM
  24. Aquila's Avatar
    Most of these people consider seven kids by four different fathers (three incarcerated, one killed in a drive-by) to be a normal life and being in jail or killing or being ghetto-fabulous with the latest this, the latest that and getting over on 'the man' is GLORIFIED every. waking. moment. of their materialistic lives.

    They don't see this to be a problem.
    While we are sitting here typing up thought-provoking, in-depth discussions, they are on their back, smoking weed and talking about the next Jordan's coming out, baby daddys, baby mamas and how to get a Chrysler 300. THEY don't see a problem in any of that.


    •• Sent via a pay phone at the gas station.
    I don't personally know those people, but I don't doubt they exist. In some way I'm morbidly not curious how many there are but I assume it's a tiny population. It could be huge and that might be the part of this conversation I'm clueless on.
    10-13-2013 04:23 AM
  25. llamabreath's Avatar
    I don't personally know those people, but I don't doubt they exist. In some way I'm morbidly not curious how many there are but I assume it's a tiny population. It could be huge and that might be the part of this conversation I'm clueless on.
    It's restrained to the confines of every major metro area of our Country (and the suburbs of them).

    Sent via a pay phone at the gas station.
    10-13-2013 04:32 AM
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