10-30-2013 01:49 AM
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  1. cdmjlt369's Avatar
    How about this. When you show up to vote at the poles, bring proof of identity so a state Id can be issued to you. (Since getting to a place to get the Id seems to be a problem).

    Sent from a device that supports the proposed 28th amendment
    10-26-2013 07:26 AM
  2. Netguysc's Avatar
    I simply want a person to provide an legal form of id issued to legal us citizens to both vote and buy a gun. I mean really if we don't need to prove who we are to vote then why prove our id at any government agency?

    Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
    10-26-2013 07:27 AM
  3. JW4VZW's Avatar
    Yes I agree without a government issued id that a person could more easily become an illegal gun owner. But what if we make them first check a box stateing that they are legally able to buy a gun? That is what we do to allow somrone to register to vote.. check a box stateing they are a legal us citizen.

    Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
    Then reform the whole system. If there is one fraudulent vote, that is one to many.
    Netguysc likes this.
    10-26-2013 07:28 AM
  4. Fairclough's Avatar
    I don;t know how it is in your country, but here I have a RIGHT to have a gun, or guns. What the democrats are doing is trampling all over that RIGHT. Also, you forget that illegal votes are just that, illegal. I never mentioned illegal gun owners, but legal gun owners. You brought up illegal gun owners as a way to distort the fact that the issue was legal gun owners versus illegal voters. I will sum it up for you: legal gun owners are not doing anything illegal, however illegal voters are doing something illegal. I don't understand why you insist on taking my rights away to ILLEGALLY own a gun yet see nothing wrong with ILLEGAL voters. I guess that is the typical leftist mindset though.
    I reside in Australia - Gun laws WERE almost identical to yours. Our government in our constitution only has the powers stated and gun control wasn't one of those but thats another topic. We allow guns if you have a legit reason and you abid by the requirements in obtaining one e.g. buy a safe etc. Prior to this our laws were very similar though.

    Sure illegal votes are illegal - but is it a major threat compared to someone obtaining a gun illegally?
    "legal gun owners are not doing anything illegal, however illegal voters are doing something illegal" You are comparing oranges with pairs. Legal gun owners aren't doing anything illegal nor are legal voters however both illegal gun owners and illegal voters are. However which one carries more risk? Here for our voting we just cross out name off the list for our suburb and they cross reference it with the other lists.

    I am not saying you shouldn't have a gun - but you should be atleast to required to show ID when buying one as there is such risks with an object designed to stop life. You showing ID does not stop you getting a gun if your a legal owner.

    Lets question the motives why they would do something illegal worst case senario.
    Illegal gun owner - to get a gun and shoot someone?
    illegal voter - to change the government for the worse because they really hate 'merica.

    Yes I agree without a government issued id that a person could more easily become an illegal gun owner. But what if we make them first check a box stateing that they are legally able to buy a gun? That is what we do to allow somrone to register to vote.. check a box stateing they are a legal us citizen.
    Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
    Right... because ticking a box will deter a person trying to obtain a gun illegally.
    Why cant you cross your name off the list from elections?
    10-26-2013 07:38 AM
  5. Netguysc's Avatar
    Because striking a name off a list doesn't deter illegal voters from voting. Hence why i want an id shown.
    What steps does Australia take to deter illegal voters from voting?

    Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
    10-26-2013 07:44 AM
  6. Netguysc's Avatar
    Deleted
    10-26-2013 07:47 AM
  7. Fairclough's Avatar
    Voting is compulsory for every Australian citizen aged 18 years or older. If you do not vote and do not have a valid and sufficient reason for failing to vote, a penalty is imposed.What happens if I do not vote? Initially the Australian Electoral Commission will write to all apparent non-voters requesting that they either provide a reason for their failure to vote or pay a $20 penalty. If, within 21 days, the apparent non-voter fails to reply, cannot provide a valid and sufficient reason or declines to pay the penalty, then prosecution proceedings may be instigated. If the matter is dealt with in court and the person is found guilty, he or she may be fined up to $170 plus court costs.

    There is an incentive to vote - not to be fined, here in Australia most people take their vote seriously. Teenages debate politics etc, Although 6% do an invalid vote by submitting a blank piece of paper or making a mistake - you can guarantee most attend to vote. Here is how you vote in Australia, we have area's of approximately 70,000 people. Each area will have a log book of the citizens - you walk in, give your name & address they cross you off and you vote. Now considering an illegal voter would have to go to the same suburb & use your name to vote wouldn't it look funny if the same person appeared lets say twice on the list? These books are cross referenced and I bet if a name is 'attend' twice they would follow this up.

    Its simple - but it makes sure each person votes once and considering they have to you will look silly if your name is not on the list or if you have already voted.

    To enrol for the first time or get back on the roll, you can enrol online.

    You will need to provide evidence of your identity. You can use your driver's licence, Australian passport number or have someone who is enrolled confirm your identity - its a one of thing from memory
    10-26-2013 07:58 AM
  8. Netguysc's Avatar
    So if I, as an American citizen, fly there right now. If there was a vote and I knew your name and address could I vote for you, as you?

    Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
    10-26-2013 08:08 AM
  9. Fairclough's Avatar
    If I had enrolled using my Identification already, you knew my whole name, address & went to the ballot box sure granted someone hasn't already done it and if they have than it is compulsory referred to the Australian Federal Police. To be honest - your vote wouldn't affect much with our preference distribution system 1 vote out of 70,000 with parties allocating their preferences towards other parties would make a negligible difference, unless you came with lets say 20,000 Americans to the 1 electorate. - Than you might see a revote if there were 20,000 double voters.

    Flip the shoe - how would you like me to go to the states and get a gun with no ID? I could have mental health issues. WOuldn't be a good policy would it?
    10-26-2013 08:14 AM
  10. Netguysc's Avatar
    If I lived in australia and worked in your health care system. I could have access to the name and legal address to hundreds or even thousands of hospitalized, institutionalized people that I was certain wouldn't be able to vote. I could share that list with hundreds or thousands of other political like minded people to fraudulently vote in your elections. Easily manipulate your elections.
    You keep comparing one illegal vote to one illegal gun purchase. So no, your one illegal gun purchase would not affect my life.
    Honestly I would be more upset if you were able to come here and vote illegally compared to your being able to illegally purchasing a gun.
    One million illegal gun purchases matter. One million illegal votes matter. This is why I want proper id shown to vote and to buy a gun.


    Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
    10-26-2013 08:21 AM
  11. Netguysc's Avatar
    Deleted
    10-26-2013 08:24 AM
  12. cdmjlt369's Avatar
    Fines for not voting? Sounds like a recipe for careless voting, a problem that's already bad enough here.

    Sent from a device that supports the proposed 28th amendment
    10-26-2013 08:36 AM
  13. Netguysc's Avatar
    Ooops meant to edit but quoted my own post.
    10-26-2013 08:48 AM
  14. Fairclough's Avatar
    I must say you have quiet the imagination on you. Besides the obviously flaws, which I will run through soon I will go with this magical access to information - how would you get enough votes to tip a district of 70,000? all these people would not be in hospital? Now lets point out these flaws. First - most of our infomation is not stored in one place e.g. the Hospital, mine is stored in a 1 doctor practise who is retiring soon in hard copy not on pc. Secondly - our government workers do not have free reign over infomation files - just with a name they cannot draw up your profile - they need ,more information to draw it up as initially its like when you recover an email - it says yes if the information is correct and once you get enough it allows the staff to draw it up.

    The next problem is - how would you have enough people in hospital in district of 70,000 to tip that area's parliament seat? Next problem is those who are unable to vote can vote prior to the election. E.g. I was working in the United States - I would have the ability to vote from their up to two weeks early by showing my own identification and that would prevent you plan.

    One illegal gun purchase won't affect your life? In the US in 2011 there 467,321crimes assiocated with guns. According to the 1991 Survey of State Prison Inmates, among those inmates who possessed a handgun, 9% had acquired it through theft, and 28% had acquired it through an illegal market such as a drug dealer or fence. Of all inmates, 10% had stolen at least one gun" So we can say about 28% of Criminals get their guns illegally - using ID would prohibit 28% going up to counter and grabbing one. Whats that 100,000 less gun crimes a year?
    10-26-2013 08:49 AM
  15. Netguysc's Avatar
    In Australia it appears that If a person wanted to they could easily vote more than once..easily. I know here, there are forces trying to take advantage of our voting system in much of the way I described earlier. We've had counties and cities here that have more votes than citizens. So yeah I see no problem in requiring an id.

    Illegal voting perhaps matters less to you because I suspect you don't have a large illegal alien population. If we dropped 15 million non - Australian people there. Would you be anymore concerned about one of them or millions of them voting illegally? Or would you feel safer if every voter had to display an id?

    How do you get on the list of eligible voters in Australia?

    Anyways we'll just have to agree to disagree. I know I'll never agree to voteing without showing an id and I suspect your opinion about not showing id is as strong as mine. But thank you very very much for the valid discussion. 👍



    Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
    10-26-2013 09:04 AM
  16. NoYankees44's Avatar
    Which is more likely to cause harm, potentially lethal. Illegal vote or illegal purchase of arms?

    - Android Central App. Remember courage is contagious.
    If you want to talk about actual potential damage, it takes 1 vote to win or lose an election. The winner(or in some cases looser) has the power to change many things. The more in powerful the office, the more ability that person has to change. Potentially for the worse. Adolf Hitler ring a bell? One vote can change the world. The minute you forget that is the minute that you relinquish all power to those above you. Every vote matters in a big way.

    So yes, the potential for a vote to cause more harm than a gun is greater. Just like the potential for a nuclear weapon to cause harm is more than a gun. To a lesser extent than a vote actually sense the elected official could have access to multiple nuclear weapons.



    Now statistically the odds are obviously in the vote's favor for doing less harm. But at the same time, legal limits only limit those that follow the laws. If someone wants to hurt people, they are going to do it. Gun or pressure cooker or car.


    I would say that if Australia had very similar gun laws to the US and had all these mass murders that there is or was some very serious societal issues going on. You see it takes a person behind a gun for those events to happen. I would speculate that the lack of mass murders sense the ban of firearms has much more to do with societal changes than it does with guns. When you raise awareness on a mass scale and change the feelings of a population, that is much more powerful than the right to own a weapon or not ever will.
    10-26-2013 09:43 AM
  17. Aquila's Avatar
    We've had counties and cities here that have more votes than citizens. So yeah I see no problem in requiring an id.
    This claim ended up being proven false, not sure if all news agencies retracted or not. It was actually proven false within November 2012, but most widely reported on in January of 2013. The quoted precincts ended up counting every two page ballot as two votes, rather then the one they actually represent. The rest of it, regarding more registered voters than residents, etc. had much more to do with registration laws relative to how long a person has to be inactive prior to being removed from the rolls (due to being deceased, moved away, etc). There are a myriad of fact checking sites with the statistics available for review, as well as the specific talking points addressed.

    Out of the 250 or so cases of ineligible votes cast in a couple decades worth of polls audited, around 4 out of every 5 were people who were ineligible and did not know they were ineligible (generally elderly people), while the remaining 50 or so people probably knew they should not have voted. This ends up being a ratio of 1:17,000,000 votes that are legitimately "fraudulent" according to the commonly bantered definition of voter impersonation (ID theft).

    As I said in another thread, "The truth of fraudulent practices relative to the vote is the machinations by both sides to prevent members of the other party from voting, and it's rampant. That and redistricting to force a predetermined conclusion. That makes votes irrelevant for both sides by a large statistical margin, discouraging participation and deflating trust in the merits of the electoral process." We've yet to see a case of fraud turning an election, but we can see thousands of districts where it was literally impossible for a change to occur from one party to another.

    Both sides are responsible for gerrymandering, they love it because it gives them easy elections with no chance of a challenge from the opposing side. The problem is that it causes primaries to be a place where extremists, with their more active zealot base (that actually participates in primaries), to unseat incumbents. While I agree most incumbents need to go, the ideal situation would be to replace them with people that are more reasonable, rather than more crazy, more easily corruptible and more interested in their own name and ego, rather than the overall well-being of the Nation.
    Fairclough likes this.
    10-26-2013 12:57 PM
  18. JW4VZW's Avatar
    We allow guns if you have a legit reason and you abid by the requirements in obtaining one e.g. buy a safe etc. Prior to this our laws were very similar though.
    With the exception of one handgun, all are locked in a safe in my parents house a few hours away. My handgun that I keep in my apartment is a Glock G31 which I also take in my car. Why do I have guns? Because, if done properly, they can be fun. I was raised around gun, and know how to handle them properly and safely. Who is the government to say what is and what is not a legitimate reason? Keep in mind, we have the Second Amendment here.
    Sure illegal votes are illegal - but is it a major threat compared to someone obtaining a gun illegally?
    It is still illegal, and should be addressed accordingly. Not ignored like it currently is.
    "legal gun owners are not doing anything illegal, however illegal voters are doing something illegal"
    Finally something we agree on.
    You are comparing oranges with pairs.
    Not quite jack. I mentioned IDing gun purchasers, but not voters. You are the one who brought up illegal gun owners, not me.
    Legal gun owners aren't doing anything illegal nor are legal voters however both illegal gun owners and illegal voters are.
    Now you see the picture.
    However which one carries more risk?
    The fact is, which one is illegal? Purchasing a gun LEGALLY, or voting ILLEGALLY? You are the one who keeps bringing up illegal gun owners, not me.
    I am not saying you shouldn't have a gun
    Good, because I intend to keep my current gun collection, and possibly add more. I am looking at an AR15, but right now cant justify the cost with my wife. Especially since itll also be locked in my safe at my parents house.
    but you should be atleast to required to show ID when buying one as there is such risks with an object designed to stop life.
    Why though? Why trample on my RIGHTS to own a gun, but not care about all of the people who are illegally voting? I would be all for showing an ID for both honestly. But it would have to be both, NOT one or the other. Also, do you forget that cars kill more people than guns?
    You showing ID does not stop you getting a gun if your a legal owner.
    Like I said, I would not mind if I had to show an ID to buy a gun and to vote. However, it would have to be both and not one or the other. For the record, I am a LEGAL gun owner and a LEGAL voter.
    Lets question the motives why they would do something illegal worst case senario.
    Illegal gun owner - to get a gun and shoot someone?
    illegal voter - to change the government for the worse because they really hate 'merica.
    Again, stop bringing up illegal gun owners. The issue is showing ID to purchase a gun, and not having to show any ID to vote. Keep it on topic.
    Right... because ticking a box will deter a person trying to obtain a gun illegally.
    Why cant you cross your name off the list from elections?
    Hey, that is how it works for voting, so why not? I wish they would routinely audit the voters list and strike off deceased people and those who no longer live there.
    10-26-2013 12:58 PM
  19. JW4VZW's Avatar
    In Australia it appears that If a person wanted to they could easily vote more than once..easily. I know here, there are forces trying to take advantage of our voting system in much of the way I described earlier. We've had counties and cities here that have more votes than citizens. So yeah I see no problem in requiring an id.

    Illegal voting perhaps matters less to you because I suspect you don't have a large illegal alien population. If we dropped 15 million non - Australian people there. Would you be anymore concerned about one of them or millions of them voting illegally? Or would you feel safer if every voter had to display an id?

    How do you get on the list of eligible voters in Australia?

    Anyways we'll just have to agree to disagree. I know I'll never agree to voteing without showing an id and I suspect your opinion about not showing id is as strong as mine. But thank you very very much for the valid discussion.



    Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
    You mean like Philadelphia having zero Republican votes? It is funny as I have a family member who lives in Philadelphia and is a Republican. Like you I think that one should be required to show an ID when voting. What next? No ID required to drive a car?
    10-26-2013 01:02 PM
  20. Aquila's Avatar
    I wish they would routinely audit the voters list and strike off deceased people and those who no longer live there.
    This is done, but there are currently laws that require a person to be inactive for a period of time prior to being struck from the rolls. Many people only vote every four years, so eliminating them for missing the city council election causes many more problems than it solves.

    Additionally, while extremely rare, there are legally dead people that are walking around and totally fine, but unable to act legally in their own name due to their deceased status. I just read about another one in GA that was told by the judge that because he missed a deadline, they could not reinstate his social security number, etc. to him. He was clearly alive and in the court room, but walked out just as legally dead as the day before. (He'd run out on his family, wasn't heard from for several years, was declared dead, then reappeared).

    Giant sweeps of absolutes fail pretty hard, but what I think we as a society could agree on is that we want to encourage everyone to learn about the political process and participate. Educate voters, and make it easy for them to vote, run for office, etc. We've seen MUCH more harm come from ignorant voters than fraudulent ones. The issue of fraud is almost statistically non-existent and in national elections has not been shown to have swayed even a single precinct in recent decades. It was a much bigger issue in ballot stuffing days where a person could win a precinct of 100 people by a margin of 2,000. Current voter ID laws prevent that already.

    If 99.99997% of votes are valid, fraud isn't the issue. I think you and I would agree that at least 75% of votes are cast by extremely uneducated regarding the candidates, actually policy positions and philosophies, etc. I'd personally say 90% or more are ridiculously ignorant considering the gravitas of the job they're undertaking. So if we were going to prioritize, I'd rather people bring knowledge and understanding of the issues, rather than an ID. That's if we can't have both. If we can have both, make the ID free, secure from ID theft and easy to obtain and bring in both.
    10-26-2013 01:17 PM
  21. Aquila's Avatar
    You mean like Philadelphia having zero Republican votes? It is funny as I have a family member who lives in Philadelphia and is a Republican. Like you I think that one should be required to show an ID when voting. What next? No ID required to drive a car?
    Yep, that's what was proven to be false. In Philadelphia, President Obama won with 85% to Governor Romney's 14%. Obama won more than 90% in over half of the 66 wards, and 99% or more in seven of those same wards. This has to do with district zoning as mentioned above. Several of those wards were less than 500 people.

    The other most commonly quoted example was Wood County, Ohio, where it was thought that 106k out of 98k eligible voters voted and that 100% of votes were for the incumbent. The reality is that 64k people voted out of 108k registered voters, and the misunderstanding was caused by multiple page ballots. The President won that county, but never had more than 75.5% of the votes in any individual precinct (there are 97). Obama won the county by a margin of 51.21% to 46.37%, with the bulk of the remainder going to Gary Johnson. 62 people voted for Virgil Goode.
    10-26-2013 01:28 PM
  22. Mooncatt's Avatar
    Over the years, we've come to realize that there are more extreme situations where our constitutional rights are not always absolute. Felons unable to own guns and things like yelling fire in a crowded theater are examples where public safety trumps apparent 2nd and 1st amendment rights respectively. That being said, I don't think it's fair to compare needing an ID for a gun with needing one to vote in terms of safety like has been debated on here.

    I'm ok with needing an ID for guns, just as I think it's needed for voting, but for different reasons. Given the problems in the U.S. with illegal aliens and large population centers, I feel the need to improve accuracy so only the people that are allowed to vote can do so, do it where they're supposed to, and only vote once.
    10-26-2013 01:38 PM
  23. Mooncatt's Avatar
    I just read about another one in GA that was told by the judge that because he missed a deadline, they could not reinstate his social security number, etc. to him. He was clearly alive and in the court room, but walked out just as legally dead as the day before.
    He should totally get a shirt that says "Dead man walking," or make a zombie reference.
    10-26-2013 01:40 PM
  24. Aquila's Avatar
    He should totally get a shirt that says "Dead man walking," or make a zombie reference.
    That and appeal the ignorant judge's ruling

    XT1060. Through spacetime.
    10-26-2013 01:41 PM
  25. JW4VZW's Avatar
    This is done, but there are currently laws that require a person to be inactive for a period of time prior to being struck from the rolls. Many people only vote every four years, so eliminating them for missing the city council election causes many more problems than it solves.

    Additionally, while extremely rare, there are legally dead people that are walking around and totally fine, but unable to act legally in their own name due to their deceased status. I just read about another one in GA that was told by the judge that because he missed a deadline, they could not reinstate his social security number, etc. to him. He was clearly alive and in the court room, but walked out just as legally dead as the day before. (He'd run out on his family, wasn't heard from for several years, was declared dead, then reappeared).

    Giant sweeps of absolutes fail pretty hard, but what I think we as a society could agree on is that we want to encourage everyone to learn about the political process and participate. Educate voters, and make it easy for them to vote, run for office, etc. We've seen MUCH more harm come from ignorant voters than fraudulent ones. The issue of fraud is almost statistically non-existent and in national elections has not been shown to have swayed even a single precinct in recent decades. It was a much bigger issue in ballot stuffing days where a person could win a precinct of 100 people by a margin of 2,000. Current voter ID laws prevent that already.

    If 99.99997% of votes are valid, fraud isn't the issue. I think you and I would agree that at least 75% of votes are cast by extremely uneducated regarding the candidates, actually policy positions and philosophies, etc. I'd personally say 90% or more are ridiculously ignorant considering the gravitas of the job they're undertaking. So if we were going to prioritize, I'd rather people bring knowledge and understanding of the issues, rather than an ID. That's if we can't have both. If we can have both, make the ID free, secure from ID theft and easy to obtain and bring in both.
    If "99.99997% of votes are valid," then 0.00003% of voter fraud is 0.00003% too much. I agree, bring knowledge and an ID to vote. I am all for making IDs free by the way. I can understand paying for a drivers license as the money will got to the state's motor vehicle agency, but paying for an ID?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Yep, that's what was proven to be false. In Philadelphia, President Obama won with 85% to Governor Romney's 14%. Obama won more than 90% in over half of the 66 wards, and 99% or more in seven of those same wards. This has to do with district zoning as mentioned above. Several of those wards were less than 500 people.

    The other most commonly quoted example was Wood County, Ohio, where it was thought that 106k out of 98k eligible voters voted and that 100% of votes were for the incumbent. The reality is that 64k people voted out of 108k registered voters, and the misunderstanding was caused by multiple page ballots. The President won that county, but never had more than 75.5% of the votes in any individual precinct (there are 97). Obama won the county by a margin of 51.21% to 46.37%, with the bulk of the remainder going to Gary Johnson. 62 people voted for Virgil Goode.
    All I know is what my family member told me. I will admit that I did not look into it much more.
    10-26-2013 06:47 PM
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