01-31-2014 12:49 PM
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  1. Timelessblur's Avatar
    I dint know where you live, the bike lanes I've seen and ridden on are not puddle filled garbage. As a matter of fact, they are MUCH nicer than the roadways they are built next to because you dont have heavy commercial vehicles driving on them all day long, and there isn't oil all over them for the exact same reason. If the bike lanes you ride on are this way, perhaps you should address your city council about the matter, and see what they'll do about it. (I can almost guarantee it won't be much because they simply don't have the funds available) As for your 8 to 12 ft wide bike lanes, that's simply not realistic, nor is it feasible on a monetary level. Again, cities do not have the funds OR the space to build such wide bike lanes.
    Well then you have an exception to the normal bike lanes not the norm. As you pointed out the cities will do nothing. I already stated if the bike lanes were in good shape that would be another issue but I have never seen bike lanes that way. They are on the low point of the road so everything drains that way. They need to be the high point.

    Also you pointed out 8ft-12ft issue. Again my response has nothing to with that other htan pointing out at less than 12 ft it is impossible for a car to safely pass a cyclist. End of story. Since we can establish it is impossible to safely pass in less than 12ft you will understand why cyclist ride dead center of a 8-12ft lane. It removes the option to even try to pass off the table as it is impossible to safely pass.
    So where in that list am I being unreasonable. I explain the logic behind everything.

    1. 2 wide- safety and greatly shrinks the distance it takes to pass the group.
    2. center of lane (or straddling with 2 pace lines.) again safety issue. Prevents unsafe passing of cyclist not giving minimum clearance of 3ft.
    3. Bike lanes - most are unsafe garbage filled. again safety.

    All 2 of the 3 are pure safety. the 3rd is still safety but also helps motorist out by making it easier to pass the entire group.

    What in the list in unreasonable. As you already agree the cities lake the funds to do anything about it.
    11-14-2013 04:57 PM
  2. dakeb's Avatar
    In Britain on dark winter nights I often come out of work to find cyclists commuting home wearing black lycra with no reflective gear and no or inadequate lights.

    And they give you the bird when you don't see them and almost run them over.

    Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk 2
    Timelessblur likes this.
    11-14-2013 05:01 PM
  3. Mooncatt's Avatar
    They are on the low point of the road so everything drains that way. They need to be the high point.
    Perhaps a valid point, but the other option is putting the lane on the crown of the road. That would be even more unsafe, as you now have to contend with two lanes of traffic, leaving you with no "out". Another problem is trying to make a turn. You could never make a simple right turn unobstructed, and have no safe place to wait out of the way when waiting for a hole in traffic to make any turn. To me, I'd rather ride the shoulder (if no sidewalk available). At least around here, the streets with bike lanes don't have a ton of junk in them and garbage cans are left on the curb. If one is in the street, it's empty and had been blown over by the wind.
    11-14-2013 05:34 PM
  4. Timelessblur's Avatar
    In Britain on dark winter nights I often come out of work to find cyclists commuting home wearing black lycra with no reflective gear and no or inadequate lights.

    And they give you the bird when you don't see them and almost run them over.

    Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk 2
    Those guys are idiots. I fully believe in over kill on the lights. Reflect gear is worthless. Lights is the only safe option.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
    Fairclough likes this.
    11-14-2013 05:56 PM
  5. Timelessblur's Avatar
    Perhaps a valid point, but the other option is putting the lane on the crown of the road. That would be even more unsafe, as you now have to contend with two lanes of traffic, leaving you with no "out". Another problem is trying to make a turn. You could never make a simple right turn unobstructed, and have no safe place to wait out of the way when waiting for a hole in traffic to make any turn. To me, I'd rather ride the shoulder (if no sidewalk available). At least around here, the streets with bike lanes don't have a ton of junk in them and garbage cans are left on the curb. If one is in the street, it's empty and had been blown over by the wind.
    Just going to point out in most location it is illegal for bikes to ride on the side walk and it is fairly unsafe (to narrow and can not handle the speed)

    It does not have to be the crown. Most places the road drains to the right. There you have the issue as long as it drains to the right you have a problem. Put the storm drains in the center and have it drain to the center or to the left of the road works as well.
    11-14-2013 05:58 PM
  6. Mooncatt's Avatar
    Just going to point out in most location it is illegal for bikes to ride on the side walk and it is fairly unsafe (to narrow and can not handle the speed)

    It does not have to be the crown. Most places the road drains to the right. There you have the issue as long as it drains to the right you have a problem. Put the storm drains in the center and have it drain to the center or to the left of the road works as well.
    I already addressed the legalities of sidewalk use and being part of why I don't ride any more early in the thread, and they can handle casual riders with average bikes. Not everyone is a speed demon with bikes that can't handle cracks.

    I'm also curious if you really think having roads drain to the center is a viable option. It would be prohibitively expensive to completely reconstruct roads and install the drainage systems to do that, and I'm sure there's a reason new roads aren't made that way too. Probably cheaper to drain to the side since less drainage pipes are under the road bed (both from a cost and weight engineering standpoint), and easier/safer to do road work or work on the drainage system itself. I think it would be unreasonable to expect cities to do this.
    With the talk of poor biking facilities and such, would the bikers be willing to pay local registration fees paid to the city if it meant the money was only used to create and improve biking paths? It's essentially the same as what gas taxes are for.
    CR6 likes this.
    11-14-2013 06:25 PM
  7. Timelessblur's Avatar
    I already addressed the legalities of sidewalk use and being part of why I don't ride any more early in the thread, and they can handle casual riders with average bikes. Not everyone is a speed demon with bikes that can't handle cracks.

    I'm also curious if you really think having roads drain to the center is a viable option. It would be prohibitively expensive to completely reconstruct roads and install the drainage systems to do that, and I'm sure there's a reason new roads aren't made that way too. Probably cheaper to drain to the side since less drainage pipes are under the road bed (both from a cost and weight engineering standpoint), and easier/safer to do road work or work on the drainage system itself. I think it would be unreasonable to expect cities to do this.
    With the talk of poor biking facilities and such, would the bikers be willing to pay local registration fees paid to the city if it meant the money was only used to create and improve biking paths? It's essentially the same as what gas taxes are for.
    Judy going to point out that city roads are not paid for by gas tax nor auto registration. Local roads are paid for by property and sales tax. Would I be willing yes but it would have to be a very strong promise and tons of legal stuff to protect those funds as the government's have been less the poor on keeping words on money like that.

    Either way point is we already pay the taxes that cover the road cost.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
    11-14-2013 06:36 PM
  8. LEMONGRAB's Avatar
    As an avid cyclist and motorcycle rider I committed to kicking/knocking of side mirrors about two years ago. I'm tired of stupid, yes stupid ignorant drivers running me off the road and trying to overtake me in my own lane (on a motorcycle). If you can't drive guess what?, you lose a side mirror or worse. Bottom line.

    This thread is in unacceptable condition; UNACCEPTABLE....
    SSgS|||_2_DroidCentral
    11-14-2013 06:45 PM
  9. ab304945's Avatar
    If a motorist kills a cyclist and it is deemed the motorist's fault, then the motorist should be punished accordingly.

    That being said, cyclists on roads without a dedicated cycle lane annoy the heck out of me. Neighborhoods is one thing, but cyclist on highways and other high traffic roads is just plane idiotic. If at any point you slow a motorist down, then you deserve all the ill feelings you get. But this goes for any vehicle that consistently goes well under the speed limit for whatever reason, not just cyclists.

    Cyclist also do assume a certain amount of risk on public roads. Sometimes accidents do happen, and if you were the one that chose to be on the road filled with 3000lb+ cars going at excessive speeds riding a bike... well you get the idea.


    On the way to my old job, there was this fat (insert intelligence insulting name here) that chose to ride his bike on a busy high way during morning rush hour while constantly weaving over the shoulder line into direct traffic despite there being a 5 ft+ wide shoulder for him to use. The he would get pissed off when people honked and got close to him. If i ever here about this man getting hit, punishing the motorist will be far from my first thought. "You cant fix stupid"
    They have to ride in the street. In many places riding in the sidewalk is illegal.

    Posted via Android Central App
    11-14-2013 06:49 PM
  10. alexlam24's Avatar
    In my town, people ride on the opposite side of the road so when I'm driving, I have a high chance of hitting them. Its people like those that complain about getting hit

    Sent from my HTC Xperia S4
    11-14-2013 07:18 PM
  11. llamabreath's Avatar
    No we do BOTH is what he is saying. As for killing cyclists think about that the next time your kid or wife goes for a bike ride....you reap what you sow!


    Sent from my iPad
    I never actually spoke about killing cyclists. Maybe you meant to quote somebody else's post?



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    11-14-2013 10:04 PM
  12. NoYankees44's Avatar
    I'm not sure you understand what a blind corner/curve really is. It means that no matter how hard you look you CAN'T see around it.



    You are being unreasonable and are unwilling to compromise on anything. Hence the problem. There will never be a middle ground since you don't want to give on anything, and just want everything to be advantageous for the cyclists. The post you quoted was very well thought out and brought up some great things on both sides, and you chose to ignore that. Instead you focus on the negative things that were said about cyclists, while ignoring the fact that sometimes they are totally to blame for the problems on the road.
    /thread
    11-14-2013 10:12 PM
  13. Fairclough's Avatar
    I don't see what's wrong with two a shoulder wide, granted they have lights. I think cyclists are generally on edge as by the time an incident happens they have already copped abuse.

    On a weekend ride of 90km (60miles) we should get 4-5 cars yelling abuse on a 2 lane both sides road, patchy traffic (waves of cars but not many) and were 2 a breast. So by the last hour you can imagine people in a group of 10 ish will flip the bird as soon as someone goes to yell out.

    I think its fair to say the paths do not go everywhere, often covered with glass and its dangerous for those at pace and pedestrians. The road is safe given cyclists follow the rules and so do drivers giving adequate space. As for the drain issue I haven't noticed a problem. There 30cm wide and can be avoided.

    - Android Central App. Remember courage is contagious.
    11-15-2013 06:58 AM
  14. phatdonkey's Avatar
    I agree with the single unit theory you discussed. I have been riding motorcycles for nearly 20 years and we do the same when riding in groups.

    I also understand ON OCCASION a car driver will run a red light or stop sign. From what i have viewed it is a blatant disregard for the signs and lights by cyclists. Most dont even check and then roll thru as you metioned, which i still believe should be ticket worthy. If i were an officer i would ticket all cyclists that do that. You dont see cops on bikes grt to a red light, stop and then continue on before its green. Reason being, its the law. I also understand sitting at a light for a while due to it not changing from being on a bike. Same thing happens on a motorcycle. In cases where that occurs i make a right go down the road a little ways then make a u turn. I dont just say, well i have waited long enough and cross the intersection. Why? Again, because it is illegal.

    I also agree to the door rule you mentioned. Very good rule. Being a rider i am always looking before opening doors in traffic and checking before pulling out. This rule/law has notjing to do with what i originally entered into this thread about.

    I would never go out of my way to hit a cyclist, but youll be damn sure if i ever hit one it will be because THEY werent following the rules of the road.

    Posted via Android Central App
    11-15-2013 09:21 PM
  15. Timelessblur's Avatar
    I agree with the single unit theory you discussed. I have been riding motorcycles for nearly 20 years and we do the same when riding in groups.

    I also understand ON OCCASION a car driver will run a red light or stop sign. From what i have viewed it is a blatant disregard for the signs and lights by cyclists. Most dont even check and then roll thru as you metioned, which i still believe should be ticket worthy. If i were an officer i would ticket all cyclists that do that. You dont see cops on bikes grt to a red light, stop and then continue on before its green. Reason being, its the law. I also understand sitting at a light for a while due to it not changing from being on a bike. Same thing happens on a motorcycle. In cases where that occurs i make a right go down the road a little ways then make a u turn. I dont just say, well i have waited long enough and cross the intersection. Why? Again, because it is illegal.

    I also agree to the door rule you mentioned. Very good rule. Being a rider i am always looking before opening doors in traffic and checking before pulling out. This rule/law has notjing to do with what i originally entered into this thread about.

    I would never go out of my way to hit a cyclist, but youll be damn sure if i ever hit one it will be because THEY werent following the rules of the road.

    Posted via Android Central App
    You do know that the law accounts for the intersection not changing right? It is if it does not change in a reasonable amount of time the light is to be considered broken and treated as a stop sign. Now this really only effects cyclist and motorcycle riders.

    Now stop sign I wish more States would pass the Idaho stop sign law. That is for bikes stop sign is treated as a yeild sign. It might not make sense to a motorist but it is more to do with the extra awareness you gain on a bike plus when a bike drop to 5 mph the amount of time spent at the sign is roughly the same as a car coming to a complete stop.

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    11-15-2013 09:44 PM
  16. DS1331's Avatar
    New York Times Opinion



    As a cyclist I find this very said. I have seen this article going around the internet today and the response to it are even sadder.
    I find that many motorist who complain by in larger are uneducated and do not understand the laws. Followed by they can not be bothered to deal with the entire 10-15 secs it MIGHT slow them down. I have had guys try to run me off the road. This is a road with 2 lanes going in each direction. NO OTHER CARS and yet some how because they HAD to change lanes they went nuts tried to almost hit me.

    Also before someone complains about cyclist in the middle the lane. The reason experiences ones do that is we have almost been hit far to many times by idiots tried to pass us in the same lane. Dead center of the lane more often that not forces the issue and removes the option of trying to pass us in the same lane. The motorist does a lane changes and gives us the 3ft min room we need for safety. Oh and the common YOU DO NOT PAY ROAD TAXES counter. Guess what most of us own a car and most of the roads we ride on are not funded by gas tax. They are funded by sales, and property tax which we all do pay.
    I gotta tell you cycling in the center of the road is the most stupid **** you can do. I don't care what excuse you have its not safe

    Sent from my XT1053 using AC Forums mobile app
    11-15-2013 09:53 PM
  17. Timelessblur's Avatar
    I gotta tell you cycling in the center of the road is the most stupid **** you can do. I don't care what excuse you have its not safe

    Sent from my XT1053 using AC Forums mobile app
    Thank you for proving your ignorance. That topic has been proven time and time again on why.
    Center of the lane is to remove the option off the table for the stupid motorist to try to pass unsafely in the lane.
    If the lane is less than 12ft wide it is impossible for the motorist to safely pass the cycling. Best solution is to make it impossible to pass with out doing a lane change. Now no more trying to squeeze by.

    Do you want links to the studies in this?

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    11-15-2013 09:58 PM
  18. DS1331's Avatar
    No but there are rules to the road. If there isn't a cycle Lane you drive on the side of the road not in the middle that's IGNORANT

    Sent from my XT1053 using AC Forums mobile app
    11-15-2013 10:42 PM
  19. Timelessblur's Avatar
    No but there are rules to the road. If there isn't a cycle Lane you drive on the side of the road not in the middle that's IGNORANT

    Sent from my XT1053 using AC Forums mobile app
    No cycling Lane means you ride dead center of the right lane.
    If their is a cycling Lane and it is not crap (aka free of garbage, water, cracks, storm drain) you use that else dead center of right lane.

    Those are safety issues hence the dead center of the right lane in most cases.
    The times when that another Lane is used (again dead center) is when the cyclist has a left turn coming up, right lane is a turn lane/exit lane.

    You again are refusing to understand basic safety.
    Yeah the dead center of a lane might tick off some motorist but it is a safety issue and removing the option to make am unsafe pass is the best way to go. It is forcing the motorist to change lanes for a safe pass.

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    11-15-2013 10:59 PM
  20. DS1331's Avatar
    I just don't want to see people get hurt and the way people drive in this country it doesn't seem smart to drive in the center

    Sent from my XT1053 using AC Forums mobile app
    11-15-2013 11:19 PM
  21. Timelessblur's Avatar
    I just don't want to see people get hurt and the way people drive in this country it doesn't seem smart to drive in the center

    Sent from my XT1053 using AC Forums mobile app

    Yeah that is why one rides dead center of the lane other wise known as taking the lane. I can tell you from personal experince that center of the lane compare to the ride it is a lot safer to be in the center.
    Reason being is when cars do pass me they will make a full lane change giving me 3ft minum safe passing distance. Heck the lane change gives me a much safer 6+ft.

    The other thing is center makes one much more visible and less likely to have a dumb *** make a right turn in front of you. Plus gives one a lot more room to safely dodge cracks, garbage ect in the road.

    It center of right lane in most cases. Safety is the reason you ride dead center. Your entire reason is why it is dead center. I would rather **** off people than risk being clipped when someone trys to make an unsafe pass.

    As I explain in other 12ft of room it is IMPOSSIBLE for a car to safely pass a cyclist with out a lane change. This means force the lane change to be the only option to pass ones self.
    http://www.bikexprt.com/streetsmarts/usa/chapter2a.htm
    http://www.bikexprt.com/streetsmarts/usa/chapter2a.htm
    11-15-2013 11:29 PM
  22. alexlam24's Avatar
    Just don't freaking ride head on in traffic. Seriously, there's this one road in my town where its a back road and everyone rides a bike on there and its head on. Scary as f

    Sent from my HTC Xperia S4
    11-16-2013 12:36 AM
  23. llamabreath's Avatar
    Just don't freaking ride head on in traffic. Seriously, there's this one road in my town where its a back road and everyone rides a bike on there and its head on. Scary as f

    Sent from my HTC Xperia S4
    I've actually always thought that it's safer for the bicyclist to ride facing traffic so they can see what vehicles coming toward them are doing, as opposed to riding with flow of traffic and not knowing what's coming up behind them, thus slim chance of the bicyclist being able to take any necessary evasive maneuvers in time.

    Yes, illegal, but I think safer for the bicyclist.

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    CR6 likes this.
    11-16-2013 12:43 AM
  24. alexlam24's Avatar
    I've actually always thought that it's safer for the bicyclist to ride facing traffic so they can see what vehicles coming toward them are doing, as opposed to riding with flow of traffic and not knowing what's coming up behind them, thus slim chance of the bicyclist being able to take any necessary evasive maneuvers in time.

    Yes, illegal, but I think safer for the bicyclist.

    ⊙⊙ Signatures, shmignatures
    It always feel like you'll have a head on collision

    Sent from Samsung Z1 GPE on T-Mobile
    Fairclough likes this.
    11-16-2013 01:12 AM
  25. Mooncatt's Avatar
    I've actually always thought that it's safer for the bicyclist to ride facing traffic so they can see what vehicles coming toward them are doing, as opposed to riding with flow of traffic and not knowing what's coming up behind them, thus slim chance of the bicyclist being able to take any necessary evasive maneuvers in time.

    Yes, illegal, but I think safer for the bicyclist.

    ⊙⊙ Signatures, shmignatures
    This has been my view as well. I've traveled all over the country and can tell you most riders are casual, without mirrors, and don't know their own rules of the road. With them riding head on to traffic, they can see and better anticipate what to do if a vehicle is veering into the shoulder. Or simply brace themselves when someone like me in a semi is about to pass them, pushing them with the air turbulence. It may not be legal, but it is safer for the average rider.
    11-16-2013 02:39 AM
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