03-05-2014 12:37 PM
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  1. jdbii's Avatar
    I have a holy roller of a Pharmacist who refuses to do so in one of my stores. Can I fire him?
    You bet you can. That guy or gals doesn't have any case whatsoever. None. Zero.

    There should be some Avenue for a pharmacy to go down if their owner does not want to provide a drug for justifiable religious reasons.
    You can only lobby your state legislature to change the licensing requirement and provide a legal way for the pharmacist to refuse. Any such law would also need to withstand any challenges in court, as well as comply with Federal Law. Nobody twisted that pharmacist arm to apply for licensing. A pharmacist is not a private person who gets to act freely. It's be sort of like giving the owner of a liquor store the right to make his own decisions and sell booze to kids. Both pharmacists and liquor store owners are not free to make those kinds of decisions. They get fined heavily, could go to jail, and they most certainly would lose their license.
    palandri and msndrstood like this.
    01-07-2014 03:41 PM
  2. nolittdroid's Avatar
    In this day in age, pretty much every town that has one pharmacy has two or more. Even the small one horse towns. If you happen to live in a town so small and only have one pharmacist that also happens to not deal birth control, it's a safe bet it's one of those tight knit communities where the patient is of the same belief. Can you demonstrate any actual stories where this has been a problem?

    Better yet, any stories where a pharmacist refused to sell a birth control prescription made for non-contraceptive reasons? I've never talked to anyone with such beliefs, but is it that plausible that a pharmacist would be so against birth control that they wouldn't even sell it for other legit reasons?
    It is not the pharmacist's job to guess whether or not the medication they dispense is adhering to their personal moral code.

    ✌SG3/iPad2
    01-07-2014 06:55 PM
  3. anon8126715's Avatar
    The biggest hypocrisy of this pharmacist and most right-wing-bible-thumping mouth breathers is that they have no problem denying the dispensing of birth control to women and claim they're doing it because it's part of their "Moral code", but have no problem being drug pushers for the pharmaceutical companies that are some of the greediest merchants in the world.

    Below is a list of the 7 deadly sins. Lets see if we can help the Pharmacist from coming across like a hypocritical A-Super-Sport....

    1 Lust --- He can rest assured that Birth Control is covered here, but he must also refuse Viagra dispensing as well as dispensing for any Penicillin, in the event the customer is using it to treat an STD.

    2 Gluttony -- He can stop dispensing peoples' cholesterol medication, their diabetes medicines, heart medications, because lets face it if the people weren't gluttonous, they wouldn't have these issues right?

    3 Greed -- He should sell all prescription pills he feels fit within his moral code at a discounted price, a DEEPLY discounted price.

    4 Sloth -- Pimple cream, yeah that lazy person just needs to wash their face. Restless leg syndrome? Walk it off you slothy bastage. Low energy/libido? Again, stop being so slothy!

    5 Wrath -- Umm, yeah those pills to help with your anger issues, not gonna happen, you just need a better moral compass.

    6 Envy -- Those pills you take because one day you want to be healthy like some of the people around you? It's just envy, stop being envious!

    7 Pride -- If I dispense these pills to you then you will be proud of your healthy living, thus I will take your prescription, but I'm not going to dispense any medications to you.



    I would actually have more respect for someone if they tried to force their moral code at wholesale, not just pick and choose the moral beliefs that don't affect them because they don't have lady parts. This pharmacist is just trying to grandstand because he wants to draw attention to himself. He's committing his own sin while trying to insist he's helping other people with their sins. Such a martyr.....this guy.....
    01-07-2014 07:59 PM
  4. Scott7217's Avatar
    It is not the pharmacist's job to guess whether or not the medication they dispense is adhering to their personal moral code.
    It probably depends on the state. For example, Maine has the following clause: "No private institution or physician or no agent or employee of such institution or physician shall be prohibited from refusing to provide family planning services when such refusal is based upon religious or conscientious objection." It also appears that the law has been in place since 1973. Perhaps Maine just happens to be a very conservative state. Otherwise, I'm sure someone would have challenged the law by now.

    Excerpt from Maine Statute, Title 22: Health and Welfare
    01-07-2014 09:24 PM
  5. Mooncatt's Avatar
    I used to live in Maine and basically once you get above Portland (aka North Boston), it does get pretty conservative.
    01-07-2014 09:51 PM
  6. jdbii's Avatar
    It probably depends on the state. For example, Maine has the following clause: "No private institution or physician or no agent or employee of such institution or physician shall be prohibited from refusing to provide family planning services when such refusal is based upon religious or conscientious objection." It also appears that the law has been in place since 1973. Perhaps Maine just happens to be a very conservative state. Otherwise, I'm sure someone would have challenged the law by now.

    Excerpt from Maine Statute, Title 22: Health and Welfare
    Interesting. Thanks for sharing. I would be interested to know if "family planning services" encompasses pharmacists and pharmacies. My unqualified hunch is that it does not, but that is the sort of clause I was referring to earlier.
    01-07-2014 10:43 PM
  7. Tall Mike 2145's Avatar
    And this BS passes for the normal discourse of our country. [language removed by moderator] Just more opportunities for lawsuits and divisionism among the population.
    01-07-2014 11:39 PM
  8. llamabreath's Avatar
    The biggest hypocrisy of this pharmacist and most right-wing-bible-thumping mouth breathers is that they have no problem denying the dispensing of birth control to women and claim they're doing it because it's part of their "Moral code", but have no problem being drug pushers for the pharmaceutical companies that are some of the greediest merchants in the world.

    Below is a list of the 7 deadly sins. Lets see if we can help the Pharmacist from coming across like a hypocritical A-Super-Sport....

    1 Lust --- He can rest assured that Birth Control is covered here, but he must also refuse Viagra dispensing as well as dispensing for any Penicillin, in the event the customer is using it to treat an STD.

    2 Gluttony -- He can stop dispensing peoples' cholesterol medication, their diabetes medicines, heart medications, because lets face it if the people weren't gluttonous, they wouldn't have these issues right?

    3 Greed -- He should sell all prescription pills he feels fit within his moral code at a discounted price, a DEEPLY discounted price.

    4 Sloth -- Pimple cream, yeah that lazy person just needs to wash their face. Restless leg syndrome? Walk it off you slothy bastage. Low energy/libido? Again, stop being so slothy!

    5 Wrath -- Umm, yeah those pills to help with your anger issues, not gonna happen, you just need a better moral compass.

    6 Envy -- Those pills you take because one day you want to be healthy like some of the people around you? It's just envy, stop being envious!

    7 Pride -- If I dispense these pills to you then you will be proud of your healthy living, thus I will take your prescription, but I'm not going to dispense any medications to you.



    I would actually have more respect for someone if they tried to force their moral code at wholesale, not just pick and choose the moral beliefs that don't affect them because they don't have lady parts. This pharmacist is just trying to grandstand because he wants to draw attention to himself. He's committing his own sin while trying to insist he's helping other people with their sins. Such a martyr.....this guy.....
    LOL, great post




    I think signatures are stupid.

    (⊙.⊙)
    01-08-2014 03:29 AM
  9. NoYankees44's Avatar
    The biggest hypocrisy of this pharmacist and most right-wing-bible-thumping mouth breathers is that they have no problem denying the dispensing of birth control to women and claim they're doing it because it's part of their "Moral code", but have no problem being drug pushers for the pharmaceutical companies that are some of the greediest merchants in the world.

    Below is a list of the 7 deadly sins. Lets see if we can help the Pharmacist from coming across like a hypocritical A-Super-Sport....

    1 Lust --- He can rest assured that Birth Control is covered here, but he must also refuse Viagra dispensing as well as dispensing for any Penicillin, in the event the customer is using it to treat an STD.

    2 Gluttony -- He can stop dispensing peoples' cholesterol medication, their diabetes medicines, heart medications, because lets face it if the people weren't gluttonous, they wouldn't have these issues right?

    3 Greed -- He should sell all prescription pills he feels fit within his moral code at a discounted price, a DEEPLY discounted price.

    4 Sloth -- Pimple cream, yeah that lazy person just needs to wash their face. Restless leg syndrome? Walk it off you slothy bastage. Low energy/libido? Again, stop being so slothy!

    5 Wrath -- Umm, yeah those pills to help with your anger issues, not gonna happen, you just need a better moral compass.

    6 Envy -- Those pills you take because one day you want to be healthy like some of the people around you? It's just envy, stop being envious!

    7 Pride -- If I dispense these pills to you then you will be proud of your healthy living, thus I will take your prescription, but I'm not going to dispense any medications to you.



    I would actually have more respect for someone if they tried to force their moral code at wholesale, not just pick and choose the moral beliefs that don't affect them because they don't have lady parts. This pharmacist is just trying to grandstand because he wants to draw attention to himself. He's committing his own sin while trying to insist he's helping other people with their sins. Such a martyr.....this guy.....
    Catholics do not believe it regulating pregnancy. It has nothing to do with judging anyone or thinking that everyone that uses birth control is having immoral sex.

    And the 7 deadly sins are not in the Bible in any sort of grouping. They are a derivation.



    To clarify, i have never in this thread defended individual pharmacists beyond saying they would have a leg to stand on in court. These people are hired to do a job. I have however defended pharmacy owners' right to provide or not provide products in facilities that they own and are responsible for.

    These pharmacy owners(and business owners that do not want to pay for insurance that covers birth control for that matter) do not want to provide a product they believe is wrong. Just like some store owners do not want alcohol or porn or firearms purchasable in their stores for various reasons. But i do not see anyone getting on their high horse claiming "forcing their moral code" about any of these products. I guess religion needs to be tacked on to something to generate this much hate. Even though it is practically the exact same thing. Just another example of ignoring the fundamental issues of a policy in an effort to blindly hate something instead of viewing it logically i guess.
    plumbrich likes this.
    01-08-2014 07:48 AM
  10. anon8126715's Avatar
    Catholics do not believe it regulating pregnancy. It has nothing to do with judging anyone or thinking that everyone that uses birth control is having immoral sex.

    And the 7 deadly sins are not in the Bible in any sort of grouping. They are a derivation.



    To clarify, i have never in this thread defended individual pharmacists beyond saying they would have a leg to stand on in court. These people are hired to do a job. I have however defended pharmacy owners' right to provide or not provide products in facilities that they own and are responsible for.

    These pharmacy owners(and business owners that do not want to pay for insurance that covers birth control for that matter) do not want to provide a product they believe is wrong. Just like some store owners do not want alcohol or porn or firearms purchasable in their stores for various reasons. But i do not see anyone getting on their high horse claiming "forcing their moral code" about any of these products. I guess religion needs to be tacked on to something to generate this much hate. Even though it is practically the exact same thing. Just another example of ignoring the fundamental issues of a policy in an effort to blindly hate something instead of viewing it logically i guess.
    They are paying for access to medicine. If a woman can only go on birth control through a doctor's prescription then guess what, that needs to be covered while people are being covered for Viagra. I'm not sure why you think one is ok but the other is not. Also, what if your employer follows a religion that doesn't believe in medicine, is that employer allowed to deny you all forms of coverage? You can't just draw the line where you're comfortable with it. You have to be inclusive or exclusive to all. What if a person contracts an STD, can that person be denied penicillin because it doesn't fit with your moral code.

    You posted in the Federal Income Tax thread that the rich should not be judged (not sure why they shouldn't be judged for their gluttonous greed, but that's for a different thread), yet you're ok with a pharmacist judging its patrons. Seems like a double standard to me.
    01-08-2014 06:36 PM
  11. Scott7217's Avatar
    What if cooks refused to serve hamburgers at McDonald's?
    They could sell other products at McDonald's. There is already a precedent in India. People don't eat a lot of beef in India, mostly due to religious reasons. McDonald's simply sells more chicken products there. For example, the Big Mac is known as the "Maharaja Mac," and it's made of chicken. (It was formerly made of lamb.)

    Big Mac (Variants) - Wikipedia

    If we use the same analogy, pharmacies that don't dispense birth control pills can sell other products to make up for the difference. People are free to choose to shop at those pharmacies or go someplace else that suits their needs better.
    01-08-2014 06:42 PM
  12. NoYankees44's Avatar
    They are paying for access to medicine. If a woman can only go on birth control through a doctor's prescription then guess what, that needs to be covered while people are being covered for Viagra. I'm not sure why you think one is ok but the other is not. Also, what if your employer follows a religion that doesn't believe in medicine, is that employer allowed to deny you all forms of coverage? You can't just draw the line where you're comfortable with it. You have to be inclusive or exclusive to all. What if a person contracts an STD, can that person be denied penicillin because it doesn't fit with your moral code.

    You posted in the Federal Income Tax thread that the rich should not be judged (not sure why they shouldn't be judged for their gluttonous greed, but that's for a different thread), yet you're ok with a pharmacist judging its patrons. Seems like a double standard to me.
    Next time read the first line of my post before replying. Has nothing to do with judgment.

    And you are drawing the same lines in different places. The local market down the street does not sell beer because they do not believe in drinking alcohol. That infringes on my rights and they are in forcing their moral code on me.

    Or I can go to a store that sells beer and buy it there... Or I can get on the Internet and complain about religion...

    Nothing is ever cut and dry in any policy. They need to make accommodations or stop pretending like we live in a state that guarantees people their rights.
    Scott7217 likes this.
    01-08-2014 06:58 PM
  13. Tall Mike 2145's Avatar
    In my experience, "good hard core Catholics" chiefly believe whatever the Pope tells them to believe. Protestants in the U.S. largely either tune all this stuff out or are what makes up the radical hard-core political right-wing of this country.

    99.99999999% of my adult life has been spent not going to church (I was raised Lutheran) and in the several churches I've been in over the course of the last 5-7 years, what I have seen is an increase in radicalization and some fundamentalist crap that just turns my stomach, to be honest.

    I don't believe and I have, looking back on my childhood, in fact never believed it is right to push my theological beliefs on anyone.

    Someone up-thread opined that it would be unconstitutional for a pharmacist to refuse to serve a prescription because of the refusal being based on religious grounds. I believe you need to reread the Constitution, sir, because the only proscriptions on religion are that it may not be established by the state, it may not be used as a test for seeking public office (arguably we the people have violated the bejeezus out of that one) and that people may not be discriminated against on that basis.

    However, I agree with you and the many others here who have said it is bad law, bad public policy, and bad company policy. Clearly, the most effective two things the public can do are:

    1. End the political career futures of those who created and signed this law; and

    2. Vote with their wallets by taking 100% of your business elsewhere.

    If the public just rolls over on this kind of stuff, and/or actively sends people to office to make laws of this sort, then the true enemy is the People. I'm uncertain what the solution to *that* problem is.
    01-09-2014 12:00 AM
  14. msndrstood's Avatar
    My pharmacist is quietly gay, and we live in a very red community. He privately owns the local pharmacy. There are corporate pharmacies within a 1/2 hour drive. However, I support my local pharmacy, thankfully, he's not one of pharmacists of which you guys are speaking.

    Religion is out of control in this country in the sense that it wants to intrude on every aspect of our lives from medical care to voting (just go listen to a fundamentalist preacher on the pulpit on Sunday). All the while, with the Bible in one hand and the Constitution in the other.


    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    01-09-2014 11:00 AM
  15. anon8126715's Avatar
    My pharmacist is quietly gay, and we live in a very red community. He privately owns the local pharmacy. There are corporate pharmacies within a 1/2 hour drive. However, I support my local pharmacy, thankfully, he's not one of pharmacists of which you guys are speaking.

    Religion is out of control in this country in the sense that it wants to intrude on every aspect of our lives from medical care to voting (just go listen to a fundamentalist preacher on the pulpit on Sunday). All the while, with the Bible in one hand and the Constitution in the other.


    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    As much as they have influenced our politics, I wish someone would get the huevos to strip away their tax exempt status. These entities not being taxed means I'm being taxed more since I don't prescribe subscribe (Doh@ my typo due to reading too much about Pharmacists and all their prescribing and no prescribing.) to any of these groups. Thus, my tax dollars are stretched more since they have to now cover the hole left by the government refusing to tax these religious entities.

    I think I'm going to start a religion where each member tells me what they want to buy, "Donate" the money it costs to buy said item to my church, I'll buy the item tax free, and give it to my church member. I'll call it the church of "I think it's BS that your imaginary all seeing boogie man worshipers don't pay taxes but now I'm going to play that game too" And our holy book shall be the Sales Catalog of any U.S. retailer.
    msndrstood likes this.
    01-09-2014 08:00 PM
  16. palandri's Avatar
    Start it off by having a vision of John Maynard Keynes and that will set everything in motion.
    01-09-2014 10:29 PM
  17. Scott7217's Avatar
    There are corporate pharmacies within a 1/2 hour drive. However, I support my local pharmacy, thankfully, he's not one of pharmacists of which you guys are speaking.
    That's good that you're supporting your local pharmacy, and I commend you for that. Let me also say that if the pharmacist wanted to sell birth control pills, I have no problem with that. Furthermore, if some people were pressuring your pharmacist to stop carrying birth control pills, I would side with your pharmacist. It's his pharmacy, and he can sell whatever he wants. Likewise, if he decided he didn't want to sell birth control pills, that's fine, too. If people want to get them, they can simply go somewhere else.
    plumbrich likes this.
    01-10-2014 02:52 AM
  18. NoYankees44's Avatar
    That's good that you're supporting your local pharmacy, and I commend you for that. Let me also say that if the pharmacist wanted to sell birth control pills, I have no problem with that. Furthermore, if some people were pressuring your pharmacist to stop carrying birth control pills, I would side with your pharmacist. It's his pharmacy, and he can sell whatever he wants. Likewise, if he decided he didn't want to sell birth control pills, that's fine, too. If people want to get them, they can simply go somewhere else.
    This should be repeated. He said it far better than i have been able to.
    01-10-2014 09:35 AM
  19. jdbii's Avatar
    It's his pharmacy, and he can sell whatever he wants.
    Not when he or she has a license. You either follow the rules of your licensing entity that manages your profession or you lose the right to practice your profession. ER doctors have to treat Neo Nazis even if their Grandparents died in the Holocaust. A Public Defender has to represent a mass murderer if ordered by a judge even if they object. If they don't they face disciplinary action and jeopardize maintaining their license in good standing. A pharmacist is no different.

    This should be repeated.
    And this should be repeated -- Pharmacists have licenses. You apply for license and you agree to abide by the rules and regulations set forth by your licensing agency. You are not free to act outside those rules.
    palandri and msndrstood like this.
    01-10-2014 10:10 AM
  20. Scott7217's Avatar
    And this should be repeated -- Pharmacists have licenses. You apply for license and you agree to abide by the rules and regulations set forth by your licensing agency. You are not free to act outside those rules.
    Are there legal ways to limit the dispensing of birth control pills? For example, could a pharmacy simply charge more for the pills, thus encouraging customers to go to another pharmacy?

    Could the pharmacy stock only enough pills for one person? Once those pills are sold out, there would be no more pills to dispense for anyone else at that moment.

    On top of that, could the pharmacy take their time in reordering a new supply? If the pharmacy decides to only restock birth control pills once a quarter (i.e. every 3 months), then that particular pharmacy could only dispense enough pills to cover 4 customers per year.

    Customers who need the pills in any of these situations could simply go to another pharmacy without any issue. Would you agree?
    01-10-2014 02:43 PM
  21. msndrstood's Avatar
    Has anyone noticed that I am the only woman posting in this thread? Since this directly affects women, I find it interesting that only men thus far think it's OK to not dispense a legally prescribed medication because of someone's belief system. Interesting.

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    01-10-2014 02:56 PM
  22. nolittdroid's Avatar
    Has anyone noticed that I am the only woman posting in this thread? Since this directly affects women, I find it interesting that only men thus far think it's OK to not dispense a legally prescribed medication because of someone's belief system. Interesting.

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    Backing you up! Men have NO idea.

    ✌SG3/iPad2
    jdbii and Tall Mike 2145 like this.
    01-10-2014 03:26 PM
  23. msndrstood's Avatar
    Backing you up! Men have NO idea.

    ✌SG3/iPad2
    Thank you. :thumbup:

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    jdbii and nolittdroid like this.
    01-10-2014 03:29 PM
  24. jdbii's Avatar
    Are there legal ways to limit the dispensing of birth control pills? For example, could a pharmacy simply charge more for the pills, thus encouraging customers to go to another pharmacy?

    Could the pharmacy stock only enough pills for one person? Once those pills are sold out, there would be no more pills to dispense for anyone else at that moment.

    On top of that, could the pharmacy take their time in reordering a new supply? If the pharmacy decides to only restock birth control pills once a quarter (i.e. every 3 months), then that particular pharmacy could only dispense enough pills to cover 4 customers per year.

    Customers who need the pills in any of these situations could simply go to another pharmacy without any issue. Would you agree?
    I don't agree with any of that, and I don't think any of it is legal, but we would really have to refer to the state licensing authority. Keep in mind Federal and State law would still need to be complied with as well. Proving mental state (i.e. intention) is a hard threshold to meet. A pharmacist could probably stonewall certain medicines without facing an inquiry, but absent a licensing rule or guideline that empowers them with that kind of discretion, if proven I think he or she would lose their license.
    msndrstood and Scott7217 like this.
    01-10-2014 03:41 PM
  25. jdbii's Avatar
    Has anyone noticed that I am the only woman posting in this thread? Since this directly affects women, I find it interesting that only men thus far think it's OK to not dispense a legally prescribed medication because of someone's belief system. Interesting.

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    This is the most important point that has been made in this thread as far as I'm concerned. Thank you for mentioning it.
    msndrstood likes this.
    01-10-2014 03:51 PM
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