03-05-2014 12:37 PM
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  1. msndrstood's Avatar
    I would agree. The other alternative would be to work at a drug store more in line with their beliefs.

    'Pro-Life' Drugstores Market Beliefs - The Washington Post

    I didn't know this was a thing, and personally, I am troubled by it. However, it doesn't appear to be illegal to open a drug store that doesn't sell contraceptives at all. They appear to be getting popular in some parts of the country.

    On a related note, the article lists other health care professionals that deal with conscience issues. From the same article:

    "The pharmacies are emerging at a time when a variety of health-care workers are refusing to perform medical procedures they find objectionable. Fertility doctors have refused to inseminate gay women. Ambulance drivers have refused to transport patients for abortions. Anesthesiologists have refused to assist in sterilizations."
    I had no idea about the pharmacies either, wow. As for the other situations you mentioned, those people need to get out of the medical field. Their beliefs should not affect the care given. What if a woman who couldn't obtain a legally safe abortion became desperate and tried to end the pregnancy on her own and began to hemorrhage? Would that ambulance driver refuse to transport her? That is illegal and crosses the boundary of negligence when it results in further harm to the patient.

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    01-17-2014 03:17 PM
  2. Scott7217's Avatar
    I had no idea about the pharmacies either, wow. As for the other situations you mentioned, those people need to get out of the medical field. Their beliefs should not affect the care given.
    Until the law changes in those states, you will run into those issues.

    With respect to the situation you described about a woman bleeding as a result of a self-induced abortion, I think an ambulance would still take her to a hospital to stop the bleeding. They simply wouldn't take her to an abortion clinic afterwards to complete the abortion if the first time was not successful. This is especially troubling if the woman's life is in danger and she needs to terminate the pregnancy. In Ireland, a woman died because she could not get a medically-necessary abortion.

    Irish abortion law key factor in death of Savita Halappanavar, official report finds - The Telegraph
    01-17-2014 03:43 PM
  3. msndrstood's Avatar
    I followed that Ireland story. That was sad and ridiculous at the same time. When beliefs get in the way of a situation like that, people need to take a long hard look at themselves.

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    01-17-2014 03:45 PM
  4. palandri's Avatar
    Oregon agency finds that refusal to bake wedding cake violated same-sex couple's civil rights

    ...Oregon law bans discrimination against gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people in jobs and in places that serve the public, such as restaurants and bakeries....

    Oregon agency finds that refusal to bake wedding cake violated same-sex couple's civil rights | Star Tribune
    msndrstood likes this.
    01-18-2014 09:45 AM
  5. llamabreath's Avatar
    Oregon agency finds that refusal to bake wedding cake violated same-sex couple's civil rights

    ...Oregon law bans discrimination against gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people in jobs and in places that serve the public, such as restaurants and bakeries....

    Oregon agency finds that refusal to bake wedding cake violated same-sex couple's civil rights | Star Tribune
    I feel like my rights are violated when I'm expected to give a damn.




    >>> Sent from Hotlanta
    01-18-2014 10:17 AM
  6. jdbii's Avatar
    Going back to my previous post, if a second pharmacist dispenses the drug without any objection (thus sparing the first pharmacist from doing it), would that be a possible (if imperfect) solution?
    I can't concede this point, nor agree to it as a workable (imperfect) solution, because it's contrary to everything I believe in. If the medication was over the counter then yes, but when it comes to regulated medication then no. In cases like this we the public really have no choice but to fall back onto regulations, laws, and ultimately the courts. From the Washington Post article you referenced I guess there are many pharmacies that actually don't stock birth control across the US. I was surprised to see that and I think it's wrong, but every jurisdiction has the right to set their own policy and standards. My grasp of when Federal law trumps State law is fuzzy at best, but outside of violating that, States are free to do what they want.
    Scott7217 likes this.
    01-18-2014 05:05 PM
  7. anon8126715's Avatar
    I wonder if this pharmacist would refuse to serve an obese person if he worked at Burger King or McDonalds. Or if he worked at a grocery store, was a Hindu and refused to sell any beef related products to customers, how the people at Faux News would react. Something tells me as long as it was agreeable to their moral code, they wouldn't have a problem with it, but when it doesn't agree with their belief system, all hell would break loose.

    And thus is why I disagree with it, if I'm a paying customer and you're trying to subject me to your moral standards then I will make sure to spend my money elsewhere. A person's morality should be kept to themselves, especially a person that's cherry picking what morality they want to follow.
    01-18-2014 05:40 PM
  8. nolittdroid's Avatar
    I'm simply defending the truth. If men were picking on women, I wouldn't hesitate going after them, either. (And neither should you.)

    And to set the record straight... to all of you, my fellow men, who think that it's actually a GOOD or acceptable thing to deny birth control materials to women, y'all are IDIOTS and seriously need to wake up and join the rest of us who are not living in the Dark Ages.


    The thread was started by a MAN trying to point out an example of stupidity in action. Most people posting here that it was a bad idea were MEN. Some of the men posting here are idiots. Maybe it would make more sense to just call out the idiots directly? Dunno, just thinking out-loud, as it were.
    The people who keep pushing these issues on the state level tend to be male and elderly. Blaming female voters for electing these fossils into office? You can't be serious.

    ✌SG3/iPad2
    msndrstood likes this.
    01-18-2014 06:16 PM
  9. nolittdroid's Avatar
    Exactly. They are professionals with a conscience. They are not mindless robots who follow orders without question.
    They are pharmacists, not doctors. It is not their job to guess what a person uses a certain medication for. If they want to play doctor, they should go to med school.

    ✌SG3/iPad2
    palandri and msndrstood like this.
    01-18-2014 06:18 PM
  10. Scott7217's Avatar
    And thus is why I disagree with it, if I'm a paying customer and you're trying to subject me to your moral standards then I will make sure to spend my money elsewhere.
    That is good advice, and I would encourage everyone to follow it. Give your business to a place that is willing to serve your needs.
    01-19-2014 02:34 AM
  11. Tall Mike 2145's Avatar
    I guess we should be grateful we don't have a glut of (if indeed any) pharmacists who are Amish, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., or we would never be able to get any real medications, would we? Can you imagine JWs as anesthesiologists or phlebotomists, or surgeons or GPs? Or Christian Scientists?

    I guess we would really be screwed then.
    01-19-2014 11:11 AM
  12. msndrstood's Avatar
    I took care of a JW child briefly. He had sickle cell anemia, his parents refused the blood transfusion needed in order to keep him alive, he died that night. I left Peds right after that, I saw some horrible things done to children by their parents, I couldn't deal with the sadness in the children and the anger in myself, so I went back to Cardiac nursing before having to retire due to health issues.

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    01-19-2014 03:52 PM
  13. Scott7217's Avatar
    I can't concede this point, nor agree to it as a workable (imperfect) solution, because it's contrary to everything I believe in. If the medication was over the counter then yes, but when it comes to regulated medication then no.
    Well, one product that is over the counter is Plan B, according to their website:

    Plan B One-Step: FAQs

    In light of this information, would you concede to my point with respect to this particular product? From your previous comments, it appears that you would concede.
    01-19-2014 05:03 PM
  14. jdbii's Avatar
    Well, one product that is over the counter is Plan B, according to their website:

    Plan B One-Step: FAQs

    In light of this information, would you concede to my point with respect to this particular product? From your previous comments, it appears that you would concede.
    You are right, I'd concede that. I'm loathe to admit it, but if Plan B does not require a prescription then that falls outside the purview of regulation or any duty pharmacists owe the public. It would be the preference of the business owner to stock whatever he or she wished, no different then if store owner didn't want to stock Pepsi, Quaker Oatmeal, or the Nation magazine.

    In the case of the wedding cake above, I think (repeat -- I think) the issue there was the Oregon Constitution didn't permit private businesses to discriminate based on sexual orientation and there was a conscious clause that did provide an out for some people or institutions to deny services, (i.e., if a Priest refused to marry two people), but not businesses open to the public. So there was a class of people that were afforded special constitutional protection under Oregon law. I don't see that restriction placed here in the case of buying OTC non-prescription meds.
    nolittdroid and Scott7217 like this.
    01-19-2014 06:05 PM
  15. nolittdroid's Avatar
    Well, one product that is over the counter is Plan B, according to their website:

    Plan B One-Step: FAQs

    In light of this information, would you concede to my point with respect to this particular product? From your previous comments, it appears that you would concede.
    Does a pharmacist have the right to refuse to sell Sudafed to a customer? I wonder, because the law was designed to specifically target CUSTOMERS who purchase Plan B Otc.

    ✌SG3/iPad2
    01-19-2014 07:03 PM
  16. Scott7217's Avatar
    Does a pharmacist have the right to refuse to sell Sudafed to a customer?
    Yes, pharmacists in the US can refuse to sell Sudafed (pseudoephedrine) to customers under DEA regulations (Title VII of Public Law 109-177).
    01-19-2014 07:32 PM
  17. Scott7217's Avatar
    They are pharmacists, not doctors. It is not their job to guess what a person uses a certain medication for.
    Pharmacists often have to counsel patients on the proper use of medications. It would be difficult to do that unless they know what the medications is used for. On top of that, you could have a single drug that treats different conditions. That makes counseling more difficult.
    01-19-2014 09:00 PM
  18. Scott7217's Avatar
    I guess we should be grateful we don't have a glut of (if indeed any) pharmacists who are Amish, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., or we would never be able to get any real medications, would we?
    In the situation you described, there would be a demand for pharmacists who could dispense the medications. People would either hire new pharmacists or set up new pharmacies to meet the demand. In some cases, people could also go through a mail-order pharmacy to get what they need.

    On a related note, Walmart, Walgreens, CVS, and Rite-Aid have conscience clauses as part of their official store policies. This is significant because these companies operate pharmacy departments across the country.
    01-19-2014 09:12 PM
  19. Scott7217's Avatar
    You are right, I'd concede that. I'm loathe to admit it, but if Plan B does not require a prescription then that falls outside the purview of regulation or any duty pharmacists owe the public.
    Even if the law demands that pharmacists must dispense a medication, it still might not happen. It happened in Illinois:

    Appeals court sides with pharmacists in emergency contraceptives case - Chicago Tribune

    Illinois has a law that says pharmacists must dispense contraceptives. Two pharmacists went to court and argued, under Illinois law, they could refuse to dispense contraceptives because of their religious beliefs. The court agreed with the pharmacists.
    01-19-2014 09:24 PM
  20. jdbii's Avatar
    Even if the law demands that pharmacists must dispense a medication, it still might not happen. It happened in Illinois:

    Appeals court sides with pharmacists in emergency contraceptives case - Chicago Tribune

    Illinois has a law that says pharmacists must dispense contraceptives. Two pharmacists went to court and argued, under Illinois law, they could refuse to dispense contraceptives because of their religious beliefs. The court agreed with the pharmacists.
    Sounds like a fluid ever changing situation. I had no idea that this was actively being fought across the US. The Illinois case would now be moot since Plan B no longer requires a prescription (or does it). From the article it said the law was imposed by executive order which, in Illinois, might be more susceptible to challenge than laws passed by the legislature.
    01-19-2014 09:36 PM
  21. Scott7217's Avatar
    My argument would be that it's NOT HIS decision to make.
    The American Pharmacists Association (APhA) disagrees with you. Per their policy manual:

    "APhA recognizes the individual pharmacist's right to exercise conscientious refusal and supports the establishment of systems to ensure patient's access to legally prescribed therapy without compromising the pharmacist's right of conscientious refusal."

    APhA Policy Manual (JAPhA 38(4):417 July/August 1998) (JAPhA NS44(5):551 September/October 2004) (Reviewed 2010)
    01-19-2014 09:47 PM
  22. Scott7217's Avatar
    To those that think the pharmacist has a right to not sell birth control, what's your opinion if he denies someone the right to purchase Viagra or condoms?
    I have no problem respecting the pharmacist's beliefs, even if I personally don't agree with them. If I needed something, I would explore other options.

    For example, Viagra is available through home delivery, according to the Pfizer website:

    Official Site - Viagra

    Condoms are available over the counter, so you can find them in groceries, convenience stores, and warehouse outlets.
    01-19-2014 09:58 PM
  23. Scott7217's Avatar
    The Illinois case would now be moot since Plan B no longer requires a prescription (or does it).
    The original case took 7 years to reach a decision from the appeals court. It's possible that someone could challenge Plan B in court in another 7 years, even with its over the counter status.
    01-19-2014 10:04 PM
  24. anon8126715's Avatar
    To me it's a slippery slope. Why only make exceptions for Christian based beliefs? Why not allow Muslim pharmacists to stone a woman who requests birth control because he was taught that it is inappropriate for a woman to be sexually active?

    If someone wants to preach their religion then they can join their religion and preach to people willing to listen to their sermon.

    Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk 2
    Scott7217 likes this.
    01-19-2014 10:37 PM
  25. nolittdroid's Avatar
    To me it's a slippery slope. Why only make exceptions for Christian based beliefs? Why not allow Muslim pharmacists to stone a woman who requests birth control because he was taught that it is inappropriate for a woman to be sexually active?

    If someone wants to preach their religion then they can join their religion and preach to people willing to listen to their sermon.

    Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk 2
    If someone wants to preach their religion, MY RIGHTS should not be violated. I agree, they should find a more suitable profession.

    ✌SG3/iPad2
    msndrstood and Scott7217 like this.
    01-20-2014 07:46 AM
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