02-16-2014 01:50 AM
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  1. phlamethrowre's Avatar
    People used to think thunder and lightning were the wrath of their chosen god, but with experiments, we now know different. We can recreate the conditions and verify the results. Even with theoretical sciences, they are ground in what we already know, can examine physical evidence, and can test the results of various aspects. All any religion can do when you ask "why," is answer with "because I said so." Nothing can be backed up with evidence. And when it comes to competing ideas about the subject, it's just a shouting match between different religions with no other reference than their own story book.

    Granted, religion can help people in other ways, such as how to treat each other and love life. It's just when it comes to stuff like how life as we know it exists, that should be left to science in public schools.
    The problem with "science only" is that at least 1/2, maybe more, of the population does not believe in that explanation.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    01-03-2014 10:09 AM
  2. anon(4903109)'s Avatar
    The number of people believing A or B has no bearing on fact or fiction. Using this as an argument is a logical fallacy.

    There are also a number of people that believe the earth is flat, or that earth is 6,000 years old.

    Fact is fact is fact no matter how many people believe otherwise.
    01-03-2014 10:43 AM
  3. Mooncatt's Avatar
    Science doesn't care what someone believes. Going back to my thunder and lightning example. I'm sure there's people that still believe it's their god's wrath, but that doesn't change the fact it's just a natural weather phenomenon.
    01-03-2014 10:44 AM
  4. phlamethrowre's Avatar
    Science doesn't care what someone believes. Going back to my thunder and lightning example. I'm sure there's people that still believe it's their god's wrath, but that doesn't change the fact it's just a natural weather phenomenon.



    Science may not care but the tax-paying parents of school children do.
    01-03-2014 11:01 AM
  5. phlamethrowre's Avatar
    Let's not forget, global warming was proven by science and then pretty much became the joke of the planet. As I type this a ship on an expedition to study the lack of polar ice at the South Pole is, you guessed it, stuck in Polar Ice.
    01-03-2014 11:05 AM
  6. Mooncatt's Avatar
    Science may not care but the tax-paying parents of school children do.
    So? That changes nothing.

    Let's not forget, global warming was proven by science and then pretty much became the joke of the planet. As I type this a ship on an expedition to study the lack of polar ice at the South Pole is, you guessed it, stuck in Polar Ice.
    That was junk science based on political motives and disregarding evidence. Not to mention the hypocrites involved.
    01-03-2014 11:12 AM
  7. NoYankees44's Avatar
    Anyone that has studied "science" on a higher level knows that it is extremely rare for anything to ever be "proven". One year the data that we can collect suggests one thing. The next year it suggests a next. The next year we have a new way to collect data that suggests something completely different. We constantly modify theories to accommodate all the possible exceptions. The deeper you go, the more you realize that the pit is bottomless and you have no idea which way is actually down.

    This is not an argument for or against religion. This is merely stating that "Science" is not a sound explanation for anything. There are no(or at least very few) "facts". There is only data/observation and speculation about what it all means. It is evidence in a never ending investigation of a crime that we will never understand.
    01-03-2014 11:27 AM
  8. phlamethrowre's Avatar
    So? That changes nothing.


    There is nothing to change. Some people put there faith in science, some in God and apparently some in pasta. Just because you believe in science does not make it more right than what someone else believes. None of us were here in the beginning. No one can say with 100% certainty how we came to be. In this area science is nothing more than guesswork. Real science can prove things. Science proves nothing when it comes to the beginning of the universe, the planet or mankind. It guesses really hard and tries to sound smart in the process.
    01-03-2014 11:30 AM
  9. anon(4903109)'s Avatar
    Anyone that has studied "science" on a higher level knows that it is extremely rare for anything to ever be "proven". One year the data that we can collect suggests one thing. The next year it suggests a next. The next year we have a new way to collect data that suggests something completely different. We constantly modify theories to accommodate all the possible exceptions. The deeper you go, the more you realize that the pit is bottomless and you have no idea which way is actually down.

    This is not an argument for or against religion. This is merely stating that "Science" is not a sound explanation for anything. There are no(or at least very few) "facts". There is only data/observation and speculation about what it all means. It is evidence in a never ending investigation of a crime that we will never understand.
    Science is the closest thing that we'll have to explaining nature physically. It is true that most things are never "proven" in the sense that most people think of it. Instead, information is acquired and tweaked as we go along. It is not quite as black and white as you put it though. Science doesn't say one thing and then change it's mind the next day!

    Theories for instance are well developed and substantially supported explanations of facts. They are not "hunches". One does not say "I've got a theory!" in science.
    msndrstood likes this.
    01-03-2014 11:38 AM
  10. phlamethrowre's Avatar
    Science is the closest thing that we'll have to explaining nature physically. It is true that most things are never "proven" in the sense that most people think of it. Instead, information is acquired and tweaked as we go along. It is not quite as black and white as you put it though. Science doesn't say one thing and then change it's mind the next day!

    Theories for instance are well developed and substantially supported explanations of facts. They are not "hunches". One does not say "I've got a theory!" in science.
    I agree, science can explain certain things in the physical world. However, I personally believe that there is more going on than just the physical world. Some people are perfectly fine accepting that there is nothing more than what we can touch and see, I'm not one of those people.
    01-03-2014 12:15 PM
  11. Mooncatt's Avatar
    I agree, science can explain certain things in the physical world. However, I personally believe that there is more going on than just the physical world. Some people are perfectly fine accepting that there is nothing more than what we can touch and see, I'm not one of those people.
    But teaching those intangibles that have no inkling of real evidence doesn't belong in a public school.
    01-03-2014 12:31 PM
  12. phlamethrowre's Avatar
    But teaching those intangibles that have no inkling of real evidence doesn't belong in a public school.
    Why not?


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    01-03-2014 12:32 PM
  13. NoYankees44's Avatar
    Science is the closest thing that we'll have to explaining nature physically. It is true that most things are never "proven" in the sense that most people think of it. Instead, information is acquired and tweaked as we go along. It is not quite as black and white as you put it though. Science doesn't say one thing and then change it's mind the next day!

    Theories for instance are well developed and substantially supported explanations of facts. They are not "hunches". One does not say "I've got a theory!" in science.
    Many times they are hunches.

    It is like showing someone from the 1700's a modern electric stove top with a "Hot" light. They observe that when the hot light is on, the stove is hot. Then they make a theory that there is a fire in the stove that shines light to the hot light and transfers heat to the cooking eye. Why do they speculate this? Because they know nothing of the electricity that actually powers the light or the cooking eye. They relate what they know and can see. Our own understanding of the universe is the same, except even worse sense we can only collect date with limited tools that many times conflicts and have very little that we can concretely understand.

    Yes science is the best tool we have to understanding physical phenomenon. No it is not a great tool. We don't even really know enough to realize how ignorant we are.
    01-03-2014 12:53 PM
  14. Mooncatt's Avatar
    There is a slippery slope argument. But keeping with creationism and intelligent design, kids are great at asking why. Going the scientific route, there's plenty of info to reference. What do you point to when they want to principles behind creationism?

    Some people believe it.

    Why?

    Because their book said so.

    Why?

    It just does.

    Why should I trust it?

    ....
    01-03-2014 01:06 PM
  15. Mooncatt's Avatar
    It is like showing someone from the 1700's a modern electric stove top with a "Hot" light. They observe that when the hot light is on, the stove is hot. Then they make a theory that there is a fire in the stove that shines light to the hot light and transfers heat to the cooking eye. Why do they speculate this? Because they know nothing of the electricity that actually powers the light or the cooking eye. They relate what they know and can see.
    No, they would develop a hypothesis (the hunch) about the fire. Then they would investigate to find the fire. Not finding it, they would investigate what is actually going on and center in on the electrical properties. Theories are things that haven't been proven 100%, but all studies point to said expected result. You have to have a fair bit of research to scientifically call something a theory.
    01-03-2014 01:12 PM
  16. anon(4903109)'s Avatar
    Many times they are hunches.

    It is like showing someone from the 1700's a modern electric stove top with a "Hot" light. They observe that when the hot light is on, the stove is hot. Then they make a theory that there is a fire in the stove that shines light to the hot light and transfers heat to the cooking eye. Why do they speculate this? Because they know nothing of the electricity that actually powers the light or the cooking eye. They relate what they know and can see. Our own understanding of the universe is the same, except even worse sense we can only collect date with limited tools that many times conflicts and have very little that we can concretely understand.

    Yes science is the best tool we have to understanding physical phenomenon. No it is not a great tool. We don't even really know enough to realize how ignorant we are.
    Couldn't be farther from the truth.

    A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on knowledge that has been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experimentation. They are not "hunches".

    Hell even a hypothesis is an "educated guess based on current knowledge". Even they are not "hunches".


    Why not?


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Because it's not science! Intelligent design is just creationism wrapped up in a bow posing as science.
    01-03-2014 01:21 PM
  17. NoYankees44's Avatar
    No, they would develop a hypothesis (the hunch) about the fire. Then they would investigate to find the fire. Not finding it, they would investigate what is actually going on and center in on the electrical properties. Theories are things that haven't been proven 100%, but all studies point to said expected result. You have to have a fair bit of research to scientifically call something a theory.
    That implies that they have both the tools and the knowledge of how to use them in order to properly test and observe the properties of electricity. THEN interpret their findings(that may or may not be accurate) correctly.

    Theories are statements that have evidence to support them. Evidence changes constantly, is only accurate as the tools you collect it with, and is up for interpretation. Evidence is also limited by the knowledge base of academia. We can only see through our own eyes. To call our perspective of the universe limited is a joke in of itself.
    01-03-2014 01:26 PM
  18. NoYankees44's Avatar
    Couldn't be farther from the truth.

    A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on knowledge that has been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experimentation. They are not "hunches".

    Hell even a hypothesis is an "educated guess based on current knowledge". Even they are not "hunches".




    Because it's not science! Intelligent design is just creationism wrapped up in a bow posing as science.
    "Based on current knowledge" says it better than i ever could...

    If everything were actually concrete, we would not have the constant arguments in the academic community over practically everything. We observe and speculate. Then we repeat continuously. As we repeat, everything changes. As we increase our perceived knowledge base, we learn more and more that we know nothing.
    01-03-2014 01:36 PM
  19. phlamethrowre's Avatar
    Going the scientific route, there's plenty of info to reference. What do you point to when they want to principles behind creationism?
    I would argue that we are surrounded by much more evidence of intelligent design/creationism than of evolution. Everything around you screams intelligent design, especially the human body. How can you explain the intricacies of the human body, with all of its systems that work together by starting off with "see, in the beginning there was nothing, and then....."
    01-03-2014 01:49 PM
  20. NoYankees44's Avatar
    The "Religion vs Science" argument will never be settled. Mostly because the argument will never be had on the same terms.

    Religion says "Prove God does not exist"

    Science says "Prove that God does exist"

    Neither will ever happen(unless a religious rapture happens of course).
    01-03-2014 01:56 PM
  21. anon(4903109)'s Avatar
    I would argue that we are surrounded by much more evidence of intelligent design/creationism than of evolution. Everything around you screams intelligent design, especially the human body. How can you explain the intricacies of the human body, with all of its systems that work together by starting off with "see, in the beginning there was nothing, and then....."
    Evolution doesn't answer the question of where things came from... so you're comparing two different things that answer two different questions.

    Evolution is a fact, it happened and happens... there's no getting around this. The "Theory of Evolution" explains best the process of evolution.

    Intelligent design on the other hand attempts to answer (using creationism) the question of where all things came from. It is not a science and never will be.



    01-03-2014 02:06 PM
  22. phlamethrowre's Avatar
    It is not a science and never will be.
    Thank God for that since I don't put my faith in science.
    01-03-2014 02:13 PM
  23. phlamethrowre's Avatar
    ....after all, putting your faith in science IS putting your faith in man and that's just nuts
    01-03-2014 02:17 PM
  24. anon(4903109)'s Avatar
    Neither do I.

    I don't need faith when I stick with reality :-)
    01-03-2014 02:19 PM
  25. NoYankees44's Avatar
    Neither do I.

    I don't need faith when I stick with reality :-)
    You mean your perceived state of reality...
    01-03-2014 02:25 PM
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