12-12-2014 08:04 AM
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  1. palandri's Avatar
    I just read this article: VW, UAW cooperate before election begins This is just becoming an absolute joke. I am surprised the anti-union groups haven't brought religion into it yet. I am waiting to hear things like, do you serve the lord or do you serve the devil? The union and VW are the devil in disguise.

    Now lets look at a few quotes:

    That management-union cooperation, before about 1,500 workers vote Wednesday through Friday, has inflamed opposition among Tennessee Republicans and other anti-union groups who have purchased billboard space and lobbied workers to reject the union.
    If the Republicans truly believed in freedom and the right of self determination, they should be 100% neutral. This makes Republicans look really bad.

    ...U.S. Sen. Bob Corker, R-Tenn., pleaded with Volkswagen workers to reject the UAW, which he described as "a Detroit-based organization" and "the largest shareholder of General Motors." Corker is the former mayor of Chattanooga...
    If he truly believed in freedom and the right of self determination, he should be 100% neutral, but he's not. He's anti-union and anti-self determination.

    Maury Nicely, a Chattanooga lawyer representing the anti-union group Southern Momentum, said some groups in Tennessee are, "examining the legality of this rush to an election and whether it may form the basis for some sort of unfair labor practice charge."
    LOL! What a joke! Discussions began in 2010, and the Wagner Act gives workers the right to collective bargaining.

    As voting begins, Southern Momentum and the Center for Worker Freedom, funded by Washington. D.C.-based anti-tax lobbyist Grover Norquist, have accused Volkswagen of backing the UAW.
    So what? They don't have the right to? Is that what they're saying? I thought Republicans believed in freedom? I guess not.

    Republican leaders, who control majorities in both chambers of the Tennessee General Assembly, and Republican Gov. Bill Haslam have threatened to reject incentives for a Volkswagen expansion in Chattanooga if workers accept the UAW.
    Wow! Let's talk about extortion. If you don't do this, we'll do this

    This is just becoming an absolute joke and is showing what the true Republican ideology is all about.
    oz123, msndrstood and GadgetGator like this.
    02-13-2014 02:05 AM
  2. NoYankees44's Avatar
    Let's drop the word, "union". Let's say your home owners association has an issue with leaking water mains, but the city keeps telling you the water mains are fine and most of the home owners are just over watering their lawn. So what are you going to do? Just leave? That's the solution I've heard you say a few times. Is there a problem with standing together (solidarity) with the other home owner and going to the city and telling them no one is over watering their lawn. It's the water mains leaking and if they don't get them fix the homeowners association will be forced to take legal action.
    I have actually experienced something similar to this. All it took was a petition and a threat of suit. Bet there was no association. There was just a bunch of home owners in an area with a problem. Most of the participants did not have the problem, but knew that it was wrong and may eventually come to them. So we gathered, faced the issue that was created by the government that we own, and with some explanation and probing, we got it resolved. Then we all went on our marry way. We gathered for a cause and then disbanded. No need for an association or big banners. Just a group of people that did what need to be done.

    I have already stated that unions can be a good thing. But I have also stated that unions can be a very bad thing, which is something many refuse to admit. It always seems to be someone else's fault if you know what I mean.
    plumbrich likes this.
    02-13-2014 07:41 AM
  3. plumbrich's Avatar
    I tried the union when I was younger. I didn't like the equal pay in our pipe fitters union, we are not all equal when it comes to work. Now that I am older and steel in my back, I can't see me making the same as a young guy in his late 20's. Obviously I wouldn't be able to produce the work of a younger guy pipe fitting, if he is a motivated hard worker. I can't see him being a motivated hard worker if he gets even pay as me no matter what.

    We have plumbers/pipe fitters in our company that range from $15 to $28 an hour. Each person is paid for what they as individuals are worth. If you want to be on the top end you show you are a hard worker, dependable, work well with others and want to stay with the company. I couldn't personally just pay everyone the same just because they have paid union dues.

    If you like union that is fine with me if you don't it is fine with me I have acquaintances on both sides and see good and bad with both. I have been lucky and worked hard in my youth and climbed to the top of every company I have worked for in my field. When I was in business for myself I always awarded more to those that worked harder. Being a superintendent for a company now I still do the same.
    02-13-2014 07:47 AM
  4. NoYankees44's Avatar
    I think the general public has been so brainwashed to hate unions that you're not going to get through to a lot of people. Only when people have actively benefited from a union specifically, then will they understand what it means to be unionized. Otherwise, they aren't going to understand it, and your breath is wasted.
    Just like people can be brain washed into thinking all companies mistreat their workers, are evil, and that unions are necessary for considerable compensation. Until you work for a good company with a good group of people that have no need to Unionize, you cannot understand this.
    02-13-2014 08:13 AM
  5. plumbrich's Avatar
    NoYankees44, you are correct that is the biggest misconception my union friends have. Somehow if we are not union we are underpaid and have no retirement and work too hard for our money. You cannot somehow succeed as an individual but have to belong to a group to be successful.

    They may be true when speaking to people born as followers but it is not true of people born as leaders.
    02-13-2014 08:28 AM
  6. anon8126715's Avatar
    I think most everyone here that's been anti-union has agreed that they have done some good and served a purpose in the past, but are against the mega unions of today and how greedy they've become. As an unrealistic hypothetical extreme to demonstrate, let's say today's unions gave us something like employers wanting us to wear GPS tracking 24/7 for some extra wages. That tracking would be a pretty bad invasion of our privacy. Would you still say we shouldn't complain about unions because of what they gave us decades ago? That would just be idiocy. Groups change over time, and by and large, we're debating unions of today, not decades ago.
    That's part of the problem. Big companies do not like the word union because it bites into their profits (their individual profits, not as much the company's profits as they'd have you believe). Thus, they've been on a campaign smear. Look at how much the middle class has gone downhill since the unions started dying off. It's no coincidence. I understand that there are some bad aspects of the unions, but the alternative is CEOs and upper management that siphon millions and force its workers to live in what is indentured slavery like conditions.
    palandri likes this.
    02-13-2014 12:00 PM
  7. Mooncatt's Avatar
    That's part of the problem. Big companies do not like the word union because it bites into their profits (their individual profits, not as much the company's profits as they'd have you believe). Thus, they've been on a campaign smear. Look at how much the middle class has gone downhill since the unions started dying off. It's no coincidence. I understand that there are some bad aspects of the unions, but the alternative is CEOs and upper management that siphon millions and force its workers to live in what is indentured slavery like conditions.
    There are some companies out there that may be like that, but government over regulation and globalization play a bigger role in wage stagnation.
    02-13-2014 12:15 PM
  8. anon8126715's Avatar
    What happens if, by some innate talent, I am able to finish my allotted work in 6 hours? Do I keep working to stay busy, even though that means I am producing 25% more than the guy beside me, or do i slack off and force myself to produce at the same rate? If I'm doing 25% more work, I am getting screwed. If I slack off, my employer is getting screwed. Either way, someone is being made to suffer because of my ability. There will always be people that are faster and slower than the average. In the end, you only end up putting shackles on those that would naturally excel.
    This would work in a perfect situation. The reasons Unions are formed is because there IS no perfect situation. If an owner/manager tries to make it fair, then there generally is no need for a union, it's when an employer is blatantly unfair, that's when there's a need to unionize. Trust me, I'd like to be a part of an organization that compensates its employees fairly, but that doesn't always happen.
    palandri likes this.
    02-13-2014 12:32 PM
  9. palandri's Avatar
    Just like people can be brain washed into thinking all companies mistreat their workers, are evil, and that unions are necessary for considerable compensation. Until you work for a good company with a good group of people that have no need to Unionize, you cannot understand this.
    So do you think that the real Norma Rae was wrong for organizing the JP Stevens factory in North Carolina?
    02-13-2014 05:23 PM
  10. NoYankees44's Avatar
    So do you think that the real Norma Rae was wrong for organizing the JP Stevens factory in North Carolina?
    I never said anyone was "wrong" for unionizing. Safety was a huge concern they helped with throughout history. Today though, the work place is completely different. Even when the union is organized to combat a problem, they are an imperfect solution. If it were not for the seniority and the "this is my job and that is your job" mentality, along with the refusing to actually negotiate as they are commonly known to do, I would not be generally against them.
    02-15-2014 04:05 PM
  11. _Zguy__'s Avatar
    The unions also lose public support when they are much too powerful and render the worst employees unfireable.
    plumbrich likes this.
    02-15-2014 04:12 PM
  12. NoYankees44's Avatar
    The VW vote is over and the vote went...

    No to UAW
    626 yes
    712 no

    Big loss for uaw. I am not sure if they will double down on their other 2 ongoing campaigns or back off for a while. This was supposed to be a sure thing for them.

    Of course the discussion about legislature saying that they would not continue tax encentives if vw unionized is on going. In this case, it was the only real thing they can say was working against the UAW sense vw was on board. That and of course the "ignorant southerners" that Tennesseeans apparently are.
    palandri likes this.
    02-15-2014 04:17 PM
  13. palandri's Avatar
    I saw the vote last night on Reuters.

    I think the UAW has learned that they need to get over 50% of the workers in southern states to sign a union card and do a card check, rather than run to petition the NLRB for a vote when they get 30+% of the workers to sign cards.

    The only real issue I see was the Tennessee state government getting involved. I am not an attorney, but their statements of what they would do if a union was voted in, maybe ruled as a form of extortion. I don't know, I am not an attorney. That will be looked into by the justice department.
    02-15-2014 04:56 PM
  14. NoYankees44's Avatar
    I saw the vote last night on Reuters.

    I think the UAW has learned that they need to get over 50% of the workers in southern states to sign a union card and do a card check, rather than run to petition the NLRB for a vote when they get 30+% of the workers to sign cards.

    The only real issue I see was the Tennessee state government getting involved. I am not an attorney, but their statements of what they would do if a union was voted in, maybe ruled as a form of extortion. I don't know, I am not an attorney. That will be looked into by the justice department.
    I thought I read in one article that they had 50% cards signed. I may be wrong on that. Anything that is not a secret ballot is pure BS anyway. If someone is sitting there pressuring you to sign something it is a pointless measure. Plus some workers could change their mind or just sign a card because they think their should be a vote. Not necessarily because they would vote yes.

    I do not think there is any grounds for legal action. The tax encentives are not a guarantee and can be removed practically any time. It just like you or I giving someone financial aid and threatening to stop the aid if they do something we do not like. They are entitled to nothing.
    02-15-2014 05:51 PM
  15. palandri's Avatar
    I thought I read in one article that they had 50% cards signed. I may be wrong on that. Anything that is not a secret ballot is pure BS anyway. If someone is sitting there pressuring you to sign something it is a pointless measure. Plus some workers could change their mind or just sign a card because they think their should be a vote. Not necessarily because they would vote yes.

    I do not think there is any grounds for legal action. The tax encentives are not a guarantee and can be removed practically any time. It just like you or I giving someone financial aid and threatening to stop the aid if they do something we do not like. They are entitled to nothing.
    LOL! No one is sitting there pressuring you to sign something (you've watched too many movies). You gain support by being open and honest with your communications, and that goes for the union and the company. I've emphasized how important communication is when you started this thread.

    Neither of us are attorneys, the issue of the state of Tennessee government getting involved will be determined by the justice department.
    02-15-2014 06:32 PM
  16. toober's Avatar
    Would it have been fair if they had voted the union in without knowing the state would take their incentives away? That would have been voting on the issue without having all the facts.
    02-16-2014 01:11 PM
  17. NoYankees44's Avatar
    Well the Volkswagen UAW vote has turned into a massive cluster as everyone knew it would.

    The UAW filed a complaint with the NLRB citing the comments made by Corker and Watson and anyone else that had anything negative to say. They want another vote. I have no idea how likely that us to happen.

    Volkswagen says it has aspirations to attempt to create a work Council without a union, but US Law prohibits it. They may be able to find a loophole, but who knows.

    The leader of the Volkswagen European Union says that he will attempt to block further investment in US facilities without if they don't Unionize.

    Workers at the Chattanooga facility have filed a lawsuit against VW and the UAW claiming that the favoritism vw showed the UAW was illegal. They cite the fact that workers were required to attend uaw meetings during work hours and that anti union workers were not allowed to campaign on site. Both vw and uaw dismiss the lawsuit.



    Basically the typical arguments during a union campaign in relation to the employer have been reversed this time. I think it would be a hilarious slap in the face to the UAW if the workers found a way to form their own union with no ties to the UAW. I think that if the UAW did not have the reputation it does, the vote would have gone the other way. I am sure that the shenanigans with the GM facility in Spring Hill Tennessee are still fresh in people's minds. That plant just started production again last year after being closed sense 2008ish.

    I think that the leader of the European Union threatening to block investment is very telling of this whole situation.
    03-18-2014 08:57 AM
  18. palandri's Avatar
    There are still so many misconceptions about unions.

    The workers are the union and the union is the workers. There is no 3rd entity. Everything is voted on democratically., how can anyone have a problem with things being voted on democratically?

    The international union is simply there for what they call category 1 language, which all has to be approved by the NLRB. For instance, with the IBEW, the international sets up category 1 language for the out of work list, double booking, traveling, lower pay scales for special projects...etc.. Category 1 language is only there to make things fair and equitable for all workers. Only a fool would want things unfair and inequitable. Everything else is handled at the local level. Its just like the US constitution which says what the feds (international) can do and everything else is handled at state (local) level.

    Yes, the workers at the VW plant can form their own union, but that would be silly to do. The UAW is already setup. The problem is the majority of workers at the VW plant don't understand how unions work, the only thing they know about unions is they don't like them. This is where the UAW failed - communications.
    03-18-2014 12:08 PM
  19. Mooncatt's Avatar
    Everything is voted on democratically., how can anyone have a problem with things being voted on democratically?
    Tyranny of the majority

    Its just like the US constitution which says what the feds (international) can do and everything else is handled at state (local) level.
    It also sets up a democratic republic limiting Federal government to allow individual freedoms, not a pure democracy.

    The problem is the majority of workers at the VW plant don't understand how unions work, the only thing they know about unions is they don't like them. This is where the UAW failed - communications.
    So you don't accept the possibility that workers understand what they want and that it differs from what the UAW could provide?
    03-18-2014 01:07 PM
  20. palandri's Avatar
    ...So you don't accept the possibility that workers understand what they want and that it differs from what the UAW could provide?
    No, I said the UAW failed on the communications front. Even with all garbage the right wing was pushing out about how "evil" unions were, the UAW should have been able to overcome the right wing garbage with the truth. The UAW should have been able to convince the workers to at least give it a try and if they didn't like it, they could just as easily vote it out. That's where the UAW failed.
    msndrstood likes this.
    03-18-2014 02:28 PM
  21. Mooncatt's Avatar
    No, I said the UAW failed on the communications front. Even with all garbage the right wing was pushing out about how "evil" unions were, the UAW should have been able to overcome the right wing garbage with the truth. The UAW should have been able to convince the workers to at least give it a try and if they didn't like it, they could just as easily vote it out. That's where the UAW failed.
    Then I'm going to guess you don't accept the possibility I laid out. I didn't say another reason was right or wrong, just pointing out that communication may not be the only possible reason. While your scenario may be feasible, the other possibility is the UAW did get the word out as you'd like but the workers still rejected it. So by your own statement, it seems that the only possible reason you'll accept is the unionization was rejected was because the UAW didn't say the right things. Any other possible reason they were rejected must be due to lies and misdirection according to you? That's what it's sounding like.
    03-18-2014 06:21 PM
  22. palandri's Avatar
    Then I'm going to guess you don't accept the possibility I laid out. I didn't say another reason was right or wrong, just pointing out that communication may not be the only possible reason. While your scenario may be feasible, the other possibility is the UAW did get the word out as you'd like but the workers still rejected it. So by your own statement, it seems that the only possible reason you'll accept is the unionization was rejected was because the UAW didn't say the right things. Any other possible reason they were rejected must be due to lies and misdirection according to you? That's what it's sounding like.
    LOL! that's not what I said.

    I've salted (there's a new term for you) enough nonunion shops to clearly see the UAW failed on the communications front. Now I am not trying to be arrogant, but here's how confident I am in that statement. I can say with 100% certainty (based on my previous record) that I could have convinced the workers to at least try it.
    msndrstood likes this.
    03-18-2014 07:12 PM
  23. toober's Avatar
    No, I said the UAW failed on the communications front. Even with all garbage the right wing was pushing out about how "evil" unions were, the UAW should have been able to overcome the right wing garbage with the truth. The UAW should have been able to convince the workers to at least give it a try and if they didn't like it, they could just as easily vote it out. That's where the UAW failed.
    So, the UAW should have used the old line "I'll only put it in a little"? I think we know how the workers would have ended up in that one.
    03-18-2014 08:48 PM
  24. palandri's Avatar
    So, the UAW should have used the old line "I'll only put it in a little"? I think we know how the workers would have ended up in that one.
    Sorry, but I have no idea what you're trying to say.
    03-18-2014 09:17 PM
  25. Mooncatt's Avatar
    I do and that was pretty crude. Let's just say to explain it would violate forum rules. :/
    03-18-2014 09:51 PM
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