12-12-2014 08:04 AM
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  1. Timelessblur's Avatar
    This guy is a dumb *** who makes a disingenuous argument. Let me ask you this, which state has the lower cost of living, New York or Mississippi? Do we ignore that fact when comparing wages? It applies to the private sector doesn't it? I can't walk into my bosses office in Houston and demand to be payed like we're in NY can I?
    You did not address facts about no health care, the less safe work place, and higher poverty. Aka right to work for less?

    Ok cost of living is a little higher in other states but you did not address any of the other things.
    palandri likes this.
    01-22-2014 11:12 AM
  2. SteveISU's Avatar
    Really?

    Again you have not address the fact RTW is pure employer benefit.
    RTW for employees is like you do not like a law as such do not have to follow them. Think about it like this way, I do not want to join the US (union) so I do not want to pay taxes (union dues) but I want all the benefits of living here.

    RTW is really right to fire.
    First of all define who's making the law? The union bosses? Welcome to the 89% of the work force that is non-union. Where fire at will is and does occur. You ever hear of teachers doing some pretty egregious things and being able to keep their jobs? Is that a good thing?
    01-22-2014 11:14 AM
  3. Timelessblur's Avatar
    First of all define who's making the law? The union bosses? Welcome to the 89% of the work force that is non-union. Where fire at will is and does occur. You ever hear of teachers doing some pretty egregious things and being able to keep their jobs? Is that a good thing?
    Again union contract. Also even in the non teacher union states it is pretty hard to fire a teacher. That example has nothing to do with union vs non union. States generally have fairly strong laws protecting teachers. Teachers also have the parents/ students who claim BS just because they do not like a teacher.
    part of it is to protect against political whims of the school board or other political ***** leaders.
    As for those issues that is more a flaw in the process. most of the time when the media reports it they will say teacher put on paid leave during the investigation and that is the last you hear. Your others are very few and far between.

    As for your other union boss counter. Union boss is elected. Just like our so call political leaders. So they make the laws as well.
    Your entire argument does not address how I compared it to living in the US. Not being part of the union and paying dues is equal to living in the US and receiving all the benefits of leaving here and not paying any taxes. (taxes being any money to the feds)
    01-22-2014 11:27 AM
  4. SteveISU's Avatar
    You did not address facts about no health care, the less safe work place, and higher poverty. Aka right to work for less?

    Ok cost of living is a little higher in other states but you did not address any of the other things.
    According to the Economic Policy Institute (who receives 30% of it's funding from labor unions) the rate of employee sponsored health insurance is 2% lower in RTW vs. non-RTW states. But there's obamacare so that should more than make up for it. As far as poverty is concerned, I don't think nor can anyone else for that matter come up with a direct metric that can tie that to solely RTW vs. non-RTW. When the guy uses these generalizations it's hard to take his numbers very seriously. Again, he is not isolating any particular metric that directly ties these stats. They look bold and pretty talking points, but there is hard nosed digging in those numbers as already pointed out by your concession that COL between most RTW vs. non-RTW states is already substantial.
    01-22-2014 11:40 AM
  5. Timelessblur's Avatar
    According to the Economic Policy Institute (who receives 30% of it's funding from labor unions) the rate of employee sponsored health insurance is 2% lower in RTW vs. non-RTW states. But there's obamacare so that should more than make up for it. As far as poverty is concerned, I don't think nor can anyone else for that matter come up with a direct metric that can tie that to solely RTW vs. non-RTW. When the guy uses these generalizations it's hard to take his numbers very seriously. Again, he is not isolating any particular metric that directly ties these stats. The look bold and pretty talking points, but there is hard nosed digging in those numbers as already pointed out by your concession that COL between most RTW vs. non-RTW states is already substantial.
    And as for my other points?

    As I pointed out before.
    Your 40 hour work week, you can thank the unions,
    Work place safety, you can thank the unions.
    Vacation - you can again thank the unions
    Retirement plans - Yet again start thanking the unions.
    Over time - Oh look another think unions pulled off.

    I can keep adding to this list.
    01-22-2014 11:43 AM
  6. SteveISU's Avatar
    Again union contract. Also even in the non teacher union states it is pretty hard to fire a teacher. That example has nothing to do with union vs non union. States generally have fairly strong laws protecting teachers. Teachers also have the parents/ students who claim BS just because they do not like a teacher.
    part of it is to protect against political whims of the school board or other political ***** leaders.
    As for those issues that is more a flaw in the process. most of the time when the media reports it they will say teacher put on paid leave during the investigation and that is the last you hear. Your others are very few and far between.

    As for your other union boss counter. Union boss is elected. Just like our so call political leaders. So they make the laws as well.
    Your entire argument does not address how I compared it to living in the US. Not being part of the union and paying dues is equal to living in the US and receiving all the benefits of leaving here and not paying any taxes. (taxes being any money to the feds)
    My wife is a teacher, I'm well aware of how the union operates. I also know of first hand, teachers who have done things that would make your jaw drop, and be appalled if you found out your kid is in that school. The union didn't care what the teacher did, they fought for him to keep his job because he was a union member, to say nothing of his actions. That kind of blind allegiance is terrifying when it happens.

    The issue that has caused states to enact RTW laws is the mandatory requirement to join a union in order to get a job in some of these companies. As a 20yr old who wants to work at GM, my free will is pretty much kicked to the curb isn't it?
    01-22-2014 11:50 AM
  7. palandri's Avatar
    My wife is a teacher, I'm well aware of how the union operates. I also know of first hand, teachers who have done things that would make your jaw drop, and be appalled if you found out your kid is in that school. The union didn't care what the teacher did, they fought for him to keep his job because he was a union member, to say nothing of his actions. That kind of blind allegiance is terrifying when it happens.
    Get specific and give us links to all these appalling actions these teachers in your wife's district do.
    01-22-2014 11:58 AM
  8. SteveISU's Avatar
    And as for my other points?

    As I pointed out before.
    Your 40 hour work week, you can thank the unions,
    Work place safety, you can thank the unions.
    Vacation - you can again thank the unions
    Retirement plans - Yet again start thanking the unions.
    Over time - Oh look another think unions pulled off.

    I can keep adding to this list.
    Congratulations, the US has labor laws, do they only apply to union members? Do you honestly believe that if unions were to become extinct 10yr olds would be back to working in the coal mines? I hate to break it to you but labor laws have been formed for most of civilization and unions are not the sole driving force of them all.

    Funny, I have vacation time and retirement, yet I'm not a member of a union? Imagine that? You can continue on and list all the things unions may or may not have had a hand in, doesn't change the fact that if you abolished unions tomorrow those things would still stand.
    01-22-2014 12:06 PM
  9. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    Again union contract. Also even in the non teacher union states it is pretty hard to fire a teacher. That example has nothing to do with union vs non union. States generally have fairly strong laws protecting teachers. Teachers also have the parents/ students who claim BS just because they do not like a teacher.
    part of it is to protect against political whims of the school board or other political ***** leaders.
    As for those issues that is more a flaw in the process. most of the time when the media reports it they will say teacher put on paid leave during the investigation and that is the last you hear. Your others are very few and far between.

    As for your other union boss counter. Union boss is elected. Just like our so call political leaders. So they make the laws as well.
    Your entire argument does not address how I compared it to living in the US. Not being part of the union and paying dues is equal to living in the US and receiving all the benefits of leaving here and not paying any taxes. (taxes being any money to the feds)
    You're making an assumption that those that don't want to be part of any particular Union would want to follow the contract that the Union and employer agree to. I know there are certain industries (and it may even be localized) that non-Union members do get to reap the benefits (and I would assume negatives) of the Union contract without being a part of the Union and therefor not paying dues. I don't agree with that. If you choose to not be a member of the Union then the Union contract shouldn't affect you at all.
    01-22-2014 12:15 PM
  10. Timelessblur's Avatar
    My wife is a teacher, I'm well aware of how the union operates. I also know of first hand, teachers who have done things that would make your jaw drop, and be appalled if you found out your kid is in that school. The union didn't care what the teacher did, they fought for him to keep his job because he was a union member, to say nothing of his actions. That kind of blind allegiance is terrifying when it happens.

    The issue that has caused states to enact RTW laws is the mandatory requirement to join a union in order to get a job in some of these companies. As a 20yr old who wants to work at GM, my free will is pretty much kicked to the curb isn't it?
    Funny part is I have family who are teachers as well.
    Unions first intersted is in its members. It should fight to keep the teacher. That is the unions job and force the burden of proof on the employer. They have to provide evidence.
    Congratulations, the US has labor laws, do they only apply to union members? Do you honestly believe that if unions were to become extinct 10yr olds would be back to working in the coal mines? I hate to break it to you but labor laws have been formed for most of civilization and unions are not the sole driving force of them all.

    Funny, I have vacation time and retirement, yet I'm not a member of a union? Imagine that? You can continue on and list all the things unions may or may not have had a hand in, doesn't change the fact that if you abolished unions tomorrow those things would still stand.
    Again you benefit as unions where driving force behind those laws.
    So yeah you are benefiting because unions forced it threw.
    So yes you can thank unions for all of that happening.


    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
    palandri likes this.
    01-22-2014 12:15 PM
  11. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    Again you benefit as unions where driving force behind those laws.
    So yeah you are benefiting because unions forced it threw.
    So yes you can thank unions for all of that happening.


    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
    I'm not arguing against any of the things that Unions have historically done for the workforce as a whole, but you do realize that this statement directly contradicts what's been said previously about Unions not using the "collective" to force what they want onto employers, right?
    01-22-2014 12:22 PM
  12. SteveISU's Avatar
    Funny part is I have family who are teachers as well.
    Unions first intersted is in its members. It should fight to keep the teacher. That is the unions job and force the burden of proof on the employer. They have to provide evidence.

    Again you benefit as unions where driving force behind those laws.
    So yeah you are benefiting because unions forced it threw.
    So yes you can thank unions for all of that happening.


    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
    Ok then explain to me how working conditions are poorer in RTW states then in non-RTW states if federal law is the jurisdiction in both? Again, have unions done some good, yes. Have the caused some bad, yes (lets not pretend their aren't inner politics with unions that don't go on in the form of favoritism). The ground work is laid like it or not. For some unknown reason you feel people should be beholden to a union because of what was done in the past. That's not the argument, the argument is the average Joe being forced to join a union as a pre-requisite to getting a job at a given company. Simply because you say they are responsible for the 40hr work week doesn't mean my checkbook should fly open to thank them for something they did in the 1950's. The evidence is there, union membership is at it's lowest point for a reason.
    01-22-2014 12:24 PM
  13. palandri's Avatar
    I'm not arguing against any of the things that Unions have historically done for the workforce as a whole, but you do realize that this statement directly contradicts what's been said previously about Unions not using the "collective" to force what they want onto employers, right?
    Semantics
    01-22-2014 12:26 PM
  14. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    Semantics
    Not really. Either they don't use the "collective" to force things or they do. It can't be both ways.
    01-22-2014 12:29 PM
  15. palandri's Avatar
    ....Again, have unions done some good, yes....
    +1 I hope you didn't have to force that out.
    01-22-2014 12:30 PM
  16. SteveISU's Avatar
    +1 I hope you didn't have to force that out.
    Try not to ignore that I also mentioned there are some shady things that go on as well.
    01-22-2014 12:32 PM
  17. SteveISU's Avatar
    Get specific and give us links to all these appalling actions these teachers in your wife's district do.
    Here's one example..

    In Wisconsin, you can look at porn at school and get your teaching job back « Watchdog.org
    01-22-2014 12:35 PM
  18. Timelessblur's Avatar
    key part fron article
    The arbitrator said Harris had in effect been treated unfairly because he was fired for viewing and sharing inappropriate content while others were reprimanded or suspended.
    That is why the district loss. They were not enforcing the rules fairly or evenly.
    That little bit was buried because that is why the District loss and chances are whas going to on that piece.
    01-22-2014 12:49 PM
  19. palandri's Avatar
    That's not a good example. The ruling was by a female arbitrator and it says, "23 emails Harris received from his sister over several years violated the district’s acceptable use policy" which makes it more bizarre, what woman sends porn to her brother?
    01-22-2014 12:51 PM
  20. SteveISU's Avatar
    That's not a good example. The ruling was by a female arbitrator and it says, "23 emails Harris received from his sister over several years violated the district’s acceptable use policy" which makes it more bizarre, what woman sends porn to her brother?
    I'm in no position to judge that guys family bonds. lol
    01-22-2014 12:56 PM
  21. SteveISU's Avatar
    key part fron article
    The arbitrator said Harris had in effect been treated unfairly because he was fired for viewing and sharing inappropriate content while others were reprimanded or suspended.
    That is why the district loss. They were not enforcing the rules fairly or evenly.
    That little bit was buried because that is why the District loss and chances are whas going to on that piece.
    My guess is because Harris is the originator of the porn and the key distributor. The other two were obviously close to retirement, if it were up to me I would have fired all 3.
    01-22-2014 12:58 PM
  22. Timelessblur's Avatar
    Ok then explain to me how working conditions are poorer in RTW states then in non-RTW states if federal law is the jurisdiction in both? Again, have unions done some good, yes. Have the caused some bad, yes (lets not pretend their aren't inner politics with unions that don't go on in the form of favoritism). The ground work is laid like it or not. For some unknown reason you feel people should be beholden to a union because of what was done in the past. That's not the argument, the argument is the average Joe being forced to join a union as a pre-requisite to getting a job at a given company. Simply because you say they are responsible for the 40hr work week doesn't mean my checkbook should fly open to thank them for something they did in the 1950's. The evidence is there, union membership is at it's lowest point for a reason.
    Well it is at a low point huge part due to RTW and remember RTW is more to RTF. It is anything but Right to work.

    The decline in union also seems to go hand in hand with the decline of the US middle class.
    Also remember many of those things like workers right was done over years. Do not think that they GOP will not try to remove many of them over time. They try to block OSHA actively sadly. They try to block safety. If they could they would do away with. Hell I bet they would try to get it so everyone was on salary with out having a salary minimum (which is a function of minimum wage).

    There is a reason why union shops make more money. Look at say auto workers. Union shop employee get more pay than their Right to Work counter parts. They get better benefits as well.
    01-22-2014 12:58 PM
  23. SteveISU's Avatar
    Well it is at a low point huge part due to RTW and remember RTW is more to RTF. It is anything but Right to work.

    The decline in union also seems to go hand in hand with the decline of the US middle class.
    Also remember many of those things like workers right was done over years. Do not think that they GOP will not try to remove many of them over time. They try to block OSHA actively sadly. They try to block safety. If they could they would do away with. Hell I bet they would try to get it so everyone was on salary with out having a salary minimum (which is a function of minimum wage).

    There is a reason why union shops make more money. Look at say auto workers. Union shop employee get more pay than their Right to Work counter parts. They get better benefits as well.
    Ok so you in essence think kids will be back in coal mines if unions go bye bye, all at the hands of the GOP. Gotcha.

    I wouldn't use Detroit or Michigan or the big three auto makers as a beacon. If not for the bailout many of those workers would have ended up like the workers at Hostess. Lets not pretend they turned it around on their own.
    01-22-2014 01:02 PM
  24. palandri's Avatar
    Not really. Either they don't use the "collective" to force things or they do. It can't be both ways.
    I fight (semantics, better word, I bargain) for better wages and benefits every year, but it's never physical, there's never fist pounding on the table, there's never yelling or swearing, It's all about the numbers, the mathematics, how much work there was and how much was paid out.
    01-22-2014 01:04 PM
  25. Mooncatt's Avatar
    The reason is because the right wing has great a good job at convincing the average worker that unions are bad and that CEOs deserve their yearly millions while the average worker struggles to make it on their wages.
    No, the reason was because the union members didn't want to go through a long strike again, loose pay, and risk going hungry.
    01-22-2014 01:06 PM
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