12-12-2014 08:04 AM
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  1. Mooncatt's Avatar
    Ok. The way you originally put it was a 30% wage increase equals an 8% increase in total expenses. Not that the 30% was the increase to what was already an 8% expense.
    01-23-2014 08:27 AM
  2. oz123's Avatar
    Don't laugh, but a couple of presidential candidates in our last presidential election brought up the idea of lowering our minimum wage to bring manufacturing back to the states.
    What a ruse that would be! The chances of manufacturing,or any other industry,returning to any of the developed world, is nil, period! This has been a long time in the planning, shifting world GDP to Asia. The World Bank, IMF, and all G7,G8,G20 nations have had this on the agenda for decades. It's not just lower wages,and tax incentives from Asian governments that is driving this, it's population. By 2050 there will be an estimated 8 billion people in Asia, and this is where the Market will be. As the standard of living increases ( 1billion middle class in Asia by 2050) so will consumption. Corporations are just in the process of setting up over there, to take advantage of this upcoming shift in wealth distribution. I fear for the developed world as our GDP, and our accustomed standard of living drops. There needs to be action taken to try and counter this trend, but the developed world political leaders do not seem to be up to the task. At the moment they are burying us all in a sea of debt.
    palandri likes this.
    01-23-2014 09:31 AM
  3. NoYankees44's Avatar
    Have you checked your wages against UAW wages to see how much more you're making with your individual negotiations?
    If someone could produce this information, I would love to compare. Last i check a year ago, my base salary was about 5% above area average and 2% above national for my qualifications. I have gotten 2 raises sense then and have great benefits on top of that. It would be interesting to compare.

    I would kind of hope UAW employees make more than me though...



    My whole point in everything i have posted is this: Many act as if unions are necessary. If an employer treats workers as they should, then what need is there for a union? To unionize, in my mind, is to show dissatisfaction and gather against your employer. I go home every day and am satisfied with my working conditions and compensation. In fact, if anything they compensate me too well. I have none of this desire to barter for better anything or try and close the wage gap between me and my CEO's/owners. Actually, I hope that I earn them more money because i know that they will do right by me. I know that my employer will do what is best for the company and also recognize my value. They have already demonstrated that many times. To unionize would be to upset that relationship.
    01-23-2014 09:38 AM
  4. Mooncatt's Avatar
    What a ruse that would be! The chances of manufacturing,or any other industry,returning to any of the developed world, is nil, period! This has been a long time in the planning, shifting world GDP to Asia. The World Bank, IMF, and all G7,G8,G20 nations have had this on the agenda for decades. It's not just lower wages,and tax incentives from Asian governments that is driving this, it's population. By 2050 there will be an estimated 8 billion people in Asia, and this is where the Market will be. As the standard of living increases ( 1billion middle class in Asia by 2050) so will consumption. Corporations are just in the process of setting up over there, to take advantage of this upcoming shift in wealth distribution. I fear for the developed world as our GDP, and our accustomed standard of living drops. There needs to be action taken to try and counter this trend, but the developed world political leaders do not seem to be up to the task. At the moment they are burying us all in a sea of debt.
    Not sure how it is in your country, but there's been a growing number of reports coming out of Asia where the economy has been accelerating to the point that the workers have been demanding more pay and better conditions (most likely rightfully so), which in turn has started driving up the costs of production. As a result, many economists have estimated that will drive manufacturing back to the U.S. along with rising fuel costs for shipping. They've even given it the nickname, "re-shoring."

    We've also had a growing push for a new tax system known as the Fair Tax. I won't go into the details now because I've covered it quite a bit in other threads already here (search for "Fair Tax" on here to find the threads), but part of it removes all corporate income taxes. That would make us the most competitive country in the world in terms of businesses and is expected to bring in tons of new business and jobs, as well as improving the ones already here through better planning and efficiencies.

    I agree much of the manufacturing has moved to Asia, but I'm not buying into the idea that it's been some worldwide scheme to do so.
    01-23-2014 10:07 AM
  5. Timelessblur's Avatar
    If someone could produce this information, I would love to compare. Last i check a year ago, my base salary was about 5% above area average and 2% above national for my qualifications. I have gotten 2 raises sense then and have great benefits on top of that. It would be interesting to compare.

    I would kind of hope UAW employees make more than me though...



    My whole point in everything i have posted is this: Many act as if unions are necessary. If an employer treats workers as they should, then what need is there for a union? To unionize, in my mind, is to show dissatisfaction and gather against your employer. I go home every day and am satisfied with my working conditions and compensation. In fact, if anything they compensate me too well. I have none of this desire to barter for better anything or try and close the wage gap between me and my CEO's/owners. Actually, I hope that I earn them more money because i know that they will do right by me. I know that my employer will do what is best for the company and also recognize my value. They have already demonstrated that many times. To unionize would be to upset that relationship.
    All what you said is true. The issue is Right to Fire makes it easier for employers to abuse workers. Basically it makes it harder for a union to forum. This is very telling as they fight it so hard them foruming and if you do not want a union OMG you have to treat your workers better.
    01-23-2014 10:37 AM
  6. palandri's Avatar
    If someone could produce this information, I would love to compare. Last i check a year ago, my base salary was about 5% above area average and 2% above national for my qualifications. I have gotten 2 raises sense then and have great benefits on top of that. It would be interesting to compare.
    Union contracts are published, I'll find a UAW contract for you. If you are being treated well and fairly compensated for your work, people aren't going to think about unionization, like I said in my first post here in regards to what I've been told by union organizers. Look at what Google does and offers to their employees.

    I would kind of hope UAW employees make more than me though...
    Are you sure you wanted to say that? It sounds like you want a free ride on their coat tails. Here's the GM UAW contract: GM Hourly | UAW

    My whole point in everything i have posted is this: Many act as if unions are necessary. If an employer treats workers as they should, then what need is there for a union? To unionize, in my mind, is to show dissatisfaction and gather against your employer.
    I am in Chicago and Chicago has been a union town since way before we were born. It's just a way of doing business, that's all. Like I've said, over and over, we negotiate, there's no table pounding or yelling and screaming or forced issues . It's all about the numbers.

    In fact, if anything they compensate me too well.
    Maybe you should give a little back to the company.

    Actually, I hope that I earn them more money because i know that they will do right by me. I know that my employer will do what is best for the company and also recognize my value. They have already demonstrated that many times. To unionize would be to upset that relationship.
    You believe in trickle down economics.
    01-23-2014 10:51 AM
  7. oz123's Avatar
    Not sure how it is in your country, but there's been a growing number of reports coming out of Asia where the economy has been accelerating to the point that the workers have been demanding more pay and better conditions (most likely rightfully so), which in turn has started driving up the costs of production. As a result, many economists have estimated that will drive manufacturing back to the U.S. along with rising fuel costs for shipping. They've even given it the nickname, "re-shoring."

    We've also had a growing push for a new tax system known as the Fair Tax. I won't go into the details now because I've covered it quite a bit in other threads already here (search for "Fair Tax" on here to find the threads), but part of it removes all corporate income taxes. That would make us the most competitive country in the world in terms of businesses and is expected to bring in tons of new business and jobs, as well as improving the ones already here through better planning and efficiencies.

    I agree much of the manufacturing has moved to Asia, but I'm not buying into the idea that it's been some worldwide scheme to do so.
    United Nations Industrial Development Organization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    01-23-2014 11:14 AM
  8. Mooncatt's Avatar
    I didn't read that all line by line, but I skimmed over it and that sounds nothing line you're suggesting. It looks like an organization aimed at helping developing countries be more self sustaining with their own manufacturing and infrastructure. That has nothing to do with purposefully killing off jobs and such in developed nations.
    01-23-2014 11:26 AM
  9. oz123's Avatar
    I didn't read that all line by line, but I skimmed over it and that sounds nothing line you're suggesting. It looks like an organization aimed at helping developing countries be more self sustaining with their own manufacturing and infrastructure. That has nothing to do with purposefully killing off jobs and such in developed nations.
    My post was not intended as a conspiracy theory. There has been a major push to industrialise Asian countries, and part of that process is to extend tax breaks (no tax ) and cheap land ( or free ) for foreign companies to set up their plants. This is done to create employement for their citizens. Now as a direct result of this, people that are employed by these companies will lose their jobs, when the move happens. This is not a conspiracy, these are the facts.

    My main fear is that as more companies set up in Asia, and become established there, the harder it will be to entice them back. I hope your theory on the U.S.A reciprocating with their own tax breaks works. But we need all politicians to come to grips with the situation we are facing. I have lost count of the number of iconic Australian companies that have made the move offshore.
    01-23-2014 01:53 PM
  10. Mooncatt's Avatar
    My main fear is that as more companies set up in Asia, and become established there, the harder it will be to entice them back. I hope your theory on the U.S.A reciprocating with their own tax breaks works. But we need all politicians to come to grips with the situation we are facing. I have lost count of the number of iconic Australian companies that have made the move offshore.
    Ok, fair point but I still disagree that will be the likely end game if nothing changes. Two things, though. It's not offering tax breaks, but a complete tear down and replacement of our tax system. No small task. Also, the only way politicians will change their time is if the people speak up first.
    01-23-2014 02:14 PM
  11. anon8126715's Avatar
    The one thing that Union shops appear to do is keep CEO pay in check. If that were the only benefit then IMO that would be the only benefit needed.
    01-23-2014 06:40 PM
  12. oz123's Avatar
    Ok, fair point but I still disagree that will be the likely end game if nothing changes. Two things, though. It's not offering tax breaks, but a complete tear down and replacement of our tax system. No small task. Also, the only way politicians will change their time is if the people speak up first.
    This is not the end of the world I agree. America will still continue to be a major player in world GDP, albeit with a smaller slice of the pie. As for my own country I am not so sure, we are too reliant on our mineral wealth.

    Good luck with changing your tax system.

    Yes people do need to speak up, and I hope we are contributing in some small way by discussing it on this forum.
    01-23-2014 07:52 PM
  13. Mooncatt's Avatar
    This is not the end of the world I agree. America will still continue to be a major player in world GDP, albeit with a smaller slice of the pie.
    If the pie is running low, go bake more pies. The world economies are not a zero sum game.
    01-23-2014 08:02 PM
  14. Tall Mike 2145's Avatar
    The problem as I see it with this discussion is that it is going nowhere. The pro-union people argue their points but the anti-union side really doesn't want to listen, and conversely the pro-union folks don't really want to listen when the anti-union folks make an argument.

    Case in point: the prior post about working conditions, retirement, hours per week, etc., gets responded to add though the responder really wasn't reading what was stated.

    Working conditions in this country (not including slavery or treatment of Indians) was not bad until the Industrial Revolution. This isn't anything unique to the U.S.; the same basic crap happened everywhere. The I.R. to all intents and purposes squeezed people into the modern era of labor, and it took the original formation of unions to stop the many egregious abuses which took place. The thing is, in time many of the unions here in this country did get greedy and corrupt. The situation got completely out of hand such that, by the 70s and 80s, companies were looking for any kind of alternatives.

    The government has overall done very little on its own. It has really only been through activist groups that the government finally put in some regs for labor, safety, etc.

    Look at Australia: they have arguably done a better job with keeping their unions from being corrupt so that their people can continue to benefit from union existence, yet businesses don't get destroyed, either. Maybe there is something to be learned from that country?
    01-24-2014 01:08 AM
  15. Tall Mike 2145's Avatar
    It is offensive beyond words that two of the absolute biggest companies in the U.S. are, as is described, "welfare queens". The problem is that they would just terminate their workforce if they had to pay them much more, especially if that increase was relatively sudden.

    Of course, my position on it is very simple: let's go ahead and dis-employ a massive block of Americans. The results of blow-back from that kind of action would surely result in changes in our society. Of course, this is a society where we don't want to get together for our common good or do anything that might cause trouble if we could ever possibly be impacted by that, so I don't expect anything to really happen except our economy will just collapse.
    01-29-2014 12:25 PM
  16. Timelessblur's Avatar
    It is offensive beyond words that two of the absolute biggest companies in the U.S. are, as is described, "welfare queens". The problem is that they would just terminate their workforce if they had to pay them much more, especially if that increase was relatively sudden.

    Of course, my position on it is very simple: let's go ahead and dis-employ a massive block of Americans. The results of blow-back from that kind of action would surely result in changes in our society. Of course, this is a society where we don't want to get together for our common good or do anything that might cause trouble if we could ever possibly be impacted by that, so I don't expect anything to really happen except our economy will just collapse.
    Oh so you are ok with those companies being welfare Queens as they only survive because they get huge tax breaks and encourage their employees to get welfare and how to do it but you have issues with the same group of people getting welfare.

    No one is saying do it over night unlike you who say cut off over night for others.
    It called phase out their welfare.
    It rather sad and pathetic you defend corporate welfare and think that is OK.
    Keep going with your head in the sand defense

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
    01-29-2014 01:52 PM
  17. Tall Mike 2145's Avatar
    Oh so you are ok with those companies being welfare Queens as they only survive because they get huge tax breaks and encourage their employees to get welfare and how to do it but you have issues with the same group of people getting welfare.
    I have absolutely no clue where you got all that from. It is amazing how people take what others say and interpret it to mean whatever they want to believe.

    Imagine if that were how football games were handled. We've got the Superbowl coming up. So... what if the game goes however it goes, and each team and respective set of fans goes away in the firm conviction that they won, regardless of what the actual score was?
    01-29-2014 02:24 PM
  18. _Zguy__'s Avatar
    The unions wouldnt be such a problem for business in America if we had not entered awful "free trade" with nations full of labor for pennies on the dollar. For a detroit company to deal with high UAW wages wouldn't be too hard if the Asian company had labor costs maybe %5 less or 50% less with a high fee to import the vehicle. Its hard to stay competitive if the competition has an extra hundred million dollars saved from using cheaper labor and importing.
    msndrstood likes this.
    02-03-2014 07:50 PM
  19. oz123's Avatar
    Well we just lost our last auto manufacturer today Toyota, on top of GM and Ford. Of course Unions are wearing most of the blame, but in my opinion it began long ago, instigated by politicians.

    Button car plan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    palandri likes this.
    02-11-2014 02:36 AM
  20. palandri's Avatar
    Well we just lost our last auto manufacturer today Toyota, on top of GM and Ford. Of course Unions are wearing most of the blame, but in my opinion it began long ago, instigated by politicians.

    Button car plan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    No surprise there. I remember reading articles about 7 years ago, that Ford and GM were closing stamping plants in Mexico due to labor cost and moving them to Guatemala and El Salvador for cheaper labor.
    02-11-2014 07:13 AM
  21. oz123's Avatar
    Yeah, don't you just love Globilisation! Western governments got sold a good one there. They all fell for it hook line and sinker!

    I came across this video on Youtube a few years ago, I was not sure if the predictions in it were accurate, but as time goes by I think he is right on the money.It's a bit long but worth a look.

    02-11-2014 07:37 AM
  22. NoYankees44's Avatar
    In case anyone is interested:

    The Chattanooga VW plant votes tomorrow through Friday on whether or not to have UAW representation. 1500ish workers are eligible to vote.

    I have 2 sources from within the plant. One says the vote will go yes, the other no. Both say it is going to be close.

    Some interesting points:
    1. Vw seems to be encouraging unionization and repressing anti Union voices. At least this is what news articles are saying. An official statement from vw says they are allowing equal campaign opportunity for both sides.

    2. UAW has agreed to a German style work council. What this actually changes for how the UAW usually operates I do not know.

    3. State legislatures are of course discouraging unionization. Even when as far as to say that future tax incentives may not happen if the vote is yes.

    4. UAW views this plant as a foothold. They think that is they can get into a foreign auto company in the south(2places they have little to no success in), they can then branch out to other facilities in the area that they have never been successful in before.
    palandri likes this.
    02-11-2014 08:40 AM
  23. oz123's Avatar
    No surprise there. I remember reading articles about 7 years ago, that Ford and GM were closing stamping plants in Mexico due to labor cost and moving them to Guatemala and El Salvador for cheaper labor.
    Looks like the wheel is turning.

    http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014494285
    palandri likes this.
    02-11-2014 09:18 AM
  24. palandri's Avatar
    In case anyone is interested:

    The Chattanooga VW plant votes tomorrow through Friday on whether or not to have UAW representation. 1500ish workers are eligible to vote.

    I have 2 sources from within the plant. One says the vote will go yes, the other no. Both say it is going to be close.

    Some interesting points:
    1. Vw seems to be encouraging unionization and repressing anti Union voices. At least this is what news articles are saying. An official statement from vw says they are allowing equal campaign opportunity for both sides.

    2. UAW has agreed to a German style work council. What this actually changes for how the UAW usually operates I do not know.

    3. State legislatures are of course discouraging unionization. Even when as far as to say that future tax incentives may not happen if the vote is yes.

    4. UAW views this plant as a foothold. They think that is they can get into a foreign auto company in the south(2places they have little to no success in), they can then branch out to other facilities in the area that they have never been successful in before.
    Thanks for the update.

    #3 that you listed above is a concern. I remember a story a union organizer for film operators and stage hands told me about a musical theater he organized. 80% of the stage hands had signed union cards so he petitioned the NLRB for a vote. The night before the vote, the theater told the chorus that they would be setting up their own stage from now on, and since there was a union vote tomorrow, they would now be able to vote in it and if they voted for the union, the theater wouldn't have enough money to pay for a chorus and they would get rid of them. Once this was discovered, it was declared a violation of the Wagner Act.

    Then again, I remember hearing about one of the foreign automakers doing something similar and not getting in trouble for it. I can't remember which foreign automaker it was (Korean maybe? not sure though) They had a quarterly bonus program for the workers which sounded real good. As each quarter went by the company would say how bad sales were and bonuses were canceled or minimal at best. As this progressed, workers started signing UAW cards. When enough finally signed cards for a vote. The company told workers that sales had been great and $2K bonuses were around the corner as long as the union wasn't voted in.

    You did read this? VWs German Workers Win Raises In Pay Deal - Democratic Underground
    02-11-2014 10:39 AM
  25. palandri's Avatar
    02-11-2014 11:27 AM
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