02-24-2014 08:13 AM
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  1. anon8126715's Avatar
    Last I checked, being American meant going out and making your own destiny, not suckle at the government you know what from cradle to the grave. I dunno, maybe that just makes me old fashioned in my middle age.

    No, not old fashioned at all, mostly brain washed. Especially when you try to harken back to the "good ole days". You mean the good ole days when our country taxed its wealthy at a much higher rate than they do now, back when pensions were common, back when our government poured money into programs such as NASA and infrastructure projects? Back when there was a higher percentage of union membership, when our middle class thrived? Those "good ole days"? Like I said, brainwashed.

    But that's ok, I'm perfectly fine with the extreme right base pushing the rich overlord agenda because I can already see the pattern and can guess the final outcome. First they blame the illegal alien population "Took er jerbz", next they start blaming people on government assistance and insist that they're "societal moochers". Eventually, overnight they'll find that their skill set has been outsourced or severely downgraded and at that moment, they'll finally wake up and realize that they've been on the wrong side the whole time.

    What generally happens to these cases is they're so disillusioned that they go off on some sort of violent rampage, like that nut job that went after Gabrielle Giffords. I actually worked with a guy that was going down the same path, dyed in the wool, true tea bagger. Insisted that there was rampant voter fraud, thought that illegal aliens were the reason he could only manage $12.00 an hour, and blamed the U.S. government for his dishonorable discharge (did I mention that he had a propensity for violence, which he once demonstrated in the workplace?) I'm not sure where he is now since he quit his job making $12.00 an hour for one paying $14.00 an hour, but I imagine it didn't last long, given his overall demeanor. It wouldn't shock me in the least if he went out in a violent rage or is behind bars somewhere. Funny how that works out.
    A895 likes this.
    02-16-2014 12:03 PM
  2. nolittdroid's Avatar
    I'm no fan of the government schools either.

    I was also thinking more on what you said earlier about programs designed to help kids. I don't think this would even fall into that debate because it isn't attempting to help them when they are a kid. The money is held until retirement, so there's nothing there to help them as they grow and give them a hand up or handout.
    Isn't this essentially the same as social security, only designed to help at risk people retire? The system isn't perfect but we can't go on like this. I've been saying this for years, but education should be our number one priority. The children are the future, I swear everyone forgets about them come budget day. 4% of the budget is for education ...defense is 22%, pensions are 24% amd welfare is 11%. If you support the army you're considered a patriot, but has anyone ever considered that if we didn't go seeking out wars every few years we might be in a better place financially?

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app
    A895 and Mooncatt like this.
    02-16-2014 12:10 PM
  3. Mooncatt's Avatar
    No, not old fashioned at all, mostly brain washed. Especially when you try to harken back to the "good ole days". You mean the good ole days when our country taxed its wealthy at a much higher rate than they do now, back when pensions were common, back when our government poured money into programs such as NASA and infrastructure projects? Back when there was a higher percentage of union membership, when our middle class thrived? Those "good ole days"? Like I said, brainwashed.

    But that's ok, I'm perfectly fine with the extreme right base pushing the rich overlord agenda because I can already see the pattern and can guess the final outcome. First they blame the illegal alien population "Took er jerbz", next they start blaming people on government assistance and insist that they're "societal moochers". Eventually, overnight they'll find that their skill set has been outsourced or severely downgraded and at that moment, they'll finally wake up and realize that they've been on the wrong side the whole time.

    What generally happens to these cases is they're so disillusioned that they go off on some sort of violent rampage, like that nut job that went after Gabrielle Giffords. I actually worked with a guy that was going down the same path, dyed in the wool, true tea bagger. Insisted that there was rampant voter fraud, thought that illegal aliens were the reason he could only manage $12.00 an hour, and blamed the U.S. government for his dishonorable discharge (did I mention that he had a propensity for violence, which he once demonstrated in the workplace?) I'm not sure where he is now since he quit his job making $12.00 an hour for one paying $14.00 an hour, but I imagine it didn't last long, given his overall demeanor. It wouldn't shock me in the least if he went out in a violent rage or is behind bars somewhere. Funny how that works out.
    I could go point by point and dismantle pretty much everything you said, but none of it has anything to do with the topic of the thread anyway. So instead, I'll leave you with some advice:

    It's better to remain silent and look like a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

    Isn't this essentially the same as social security, only designed to help at risk people retire? The system isn't perfect but conservative we can't go on like this.
    In a way, yes. In the original plan, it would be funded by other people's payroll taxes for a relatively small one time amount per person, and the parent's tax credits for the rest. The second plan would be a loan (though since a baby can't sign a loan contract, that idea is just silly to me), and the principle paid back at a later time. The principle funding aside, look at what SS has become. It wasn't meant to be a retirement fund for everyone, but that's what it turned in to and will fail under its own weight unless overhauled. Additionally, this plan isn't just for "at risk" babies, the proposals give it to everyone. If that were the case, the government would essentially be saying everyone is at risk and not capable of handling their own retirement.

    Speaking of contracts above, look at it this way. Regardless of the plan, there will be no binding contracts for this money that you can sign. At best, it's like being listed as a beneficiary on someone's insurance policy. That means the only thing tying the money to you would be a federal law, and laws can be changed, and even reversed whenever the government wants to. Even if it goes against the will of the people. With a contracted private plan, any changes outside what was already agreed upon have to be signed off on by both you and the fund manager/company.

    So basically, if the government ever decides they want "your" subsidized retirement money, they can re-write that law however they see fit (or not, if the Obamacare changes set any precedents), and keep that money. Now what are all those people going to do for retirement because they thought they already had a sound one (much like SS) and hadn't set any of their own money aside for it? That's a pretty unnerving situation to be put in through no choice of your own.

    Ok, the last part was extreme, but I said it like that to demonstrate the point of just how little control you'd have of the money and why it'd be unwise to rely on it. In reality, the government could easily do something like cap the amount in the accounts, and only allow you to draw a limited amount at a time. Such as a million bucks capped, only withdraw 6% ($60k, a nice living for retirement), but historical interest rates on the funds 10+%. That means each year you're leaving at least $40k on the table between what you withdraw and what the account earns, and all that extra interest going to the government. If it was your own private fund, there would be no caps or withdraw limits. 10% returns on long term investments are not hard to come by in the open market.

    So I ask you, do you love your government enough to give up that much extra money to them on top of the taxes you already pay? Or enough to even risk something like that happening .
    02-16-2014 03:34 PM
  4. oz123's Avatar
    If this plan was offered to me I would jump at it. But it is only a proposition that will never be implemented. I wish it was put in place, as more American citizens would benefit in their retirement.

    Thrift Savings Plan - The Model for all 401(k) Plans! - CBS News

    This is what is being offered by the American government.

    What Obama's myRA Plan Could Do for You - DailyFinance
    02-16-2014 05:21 PM
  5. toober's Avatar
    If this plan was offered to me I would jump at it. But it is only a proposition that will never be implemented. I wish it was put in place, as more American citizens would benefit in their retirement.

    Thrift Savings Plan - The Model for all 401(k) Plans! - CBS News

    This is what is being offered by the American government.

    What Obama's myRA Plan Could Do for You - DailyFinance
    Makes me wonder how long until we hear "If you like your retirement plan, you can keep your retirement plan," Same BS as always, people define a need as a right, then it becomes the government's responsibility to provide it for everyone. Am I going to lose my retirement plan, which I like, to be forced on to a government plan the same way I lost my health insurance when they said it was a "Cadillac plan"?
    02-16-2014 08:52 PM
  6. Mooncatt's Avatar
    If this plan was offered to me I would jump at it.
    If you didn't, then passing these types of proposals would shove it down your throat anyway.

    But it is only a proposition that will never be implemented. I wish it was put in place, as more American citizens would benefit in their retirement.

    Thrift Savings Plan - The Model for all 401(k) Plans! - CBS News

    This is what is being offered by the American government.

    What Obama's myRA Plan Could Do for You - DailyFinance
    I don't know a lot about TSP's and the myRA proposal, but I did read the two articles you linked to. I saw some yellow and maybe even red flags in the plans and how the articles were written that would make me shy away from them. I don't think government should be involved with retirement plans either way, but I will say at least those two plans are optional. If you think those are good investments and want to put your money in it, that's on you. It's when it's "the people's" money put in something like this, especially with risk of loss, then I take issue.
    02-16-2014 10:07 PM
  7. oz123's Avatar



    I don't know a lot about TSP's and the myRA proposal, but I did read the two articles you linked to. I saw some yellow and maybe even red flags in the plans and how the articles were written that would make me shy away from them. I don't think government should be involved with retirement plans either way, but I will say at least those two plans are optional. If you think those are good investments and want to put your money in it, that's on you. It's when it's "the people's" money put in something like this, especially with risk of loss, then I take issue.
    The only reason I would jump at a TSP is the low management fees, which can amount to a substantial amount over the life of a policy. As for a myRA I would not be interested in the slightest.

    Having your own policy is preferable, but the facts are a lot of American citizens just do not have one. I am not a fan of government intervention either, but what can be done to remedy the current situation?

    As for losing money in a government fund, I would suggest you Google a CAFR from a government pension fund to get a clearer picture.
    02-16-2014 11:56 PM
  8. Mooncatt's Avatar
    The only reason I would jump at a TSP is the low management fees, which can amount to a substantial amount over the life of a policy. As for a myRA I would not be interested in the slightest.

    Having your own policy is preferable, but the facts are a lot of American citizens just do not have one. I am not a fan of government intervention either, but what can be done to remedy the current situation?
    The low management fees, from what I've been told, is likely due in large part to a lack of marketing. The funds in a TSP aren't competing with the rest of the market, so there isn't a need. Not sure how true that is, but I'm sure that's part of it. The other part could be that it's a more tightly controlled system, like comparing Apple to Android environments. What you get for that isn't worth it to me because part of it is invested in the bond market and the investments have the automatic move to conservative funds as you age. Both are things I think are a bad idea. I'd rather diversify my funds in a way I want and leave them there until I decide to move them.

    How can we remedy the current situation? Educate people. Not everyone will want to learn, and I'm sure many of those will see those that do know how to handle money and make wise choices as "evil" because they got wealthy as a result. Even those that would otherwise be unwilling will open up if presented with the info the right way. Usually when someone they know personally offers them help in a humble way that isn't trying to force feed this stuff down their throats. The government can provide some education, but it's more a cultural problem than a learning problem.

    I was also a victim of that in a way, with the only advice I got being from my parents that I needed to get a credit card early and charge/pay off to build my credit. The same advice pretty much everyone gets as a teen simply because their parents didn't know better and the good information was hard to come by. I've sense realized how dangerous that was to be taught, but I'm not playing the victim card. I've learned a fair bit and making up for my bad choices, and I'm working my way to being able to at myself up for retirement and put my kids on a better path with money than I had.
    02-17-2014 12:58 AM
  9. anon8126715's Avatar
    I could go point by point and dismantle pretty much everything you said, but none of it has anything to do with the topic of the thread anyway. So instead, I'll leave you with some advice:

    It's better to remain silent and look like a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

    I'll make it easy on you. Go back to ANY time you think we were a more prosperous nation and go look at the top tax rates. Then go look at how much broader a middle class society we were. Higher tax rates + broader middle class = more tax revenue = government can spend more on education, innovation, and infrastructure. I look forward to your response, unless you're just going to throw just another quote at me in lieu of actual facts to back up your claims.

    Oh, and your quote is a quote from Mark Twain, who is actually considered a liberal, so I guess trying to remain "silent" while quoting a liberal's quote, while trying to convey a conservative point of view, is there a foolish quote for that specific situation?
    A895 likes this.
    02-17-2014 06:06 AM
  10. Mooncatt's Avatar
    I'll make it easy on you. Go back to ANY time you think we were a more prosperous nation and go look at the top tax rates. Then go look at how much broader a middle class society we were. Higher tax rates + broader middle class = more tax revenue = government can spend more on education, innovation, and infrastructure. I look forward to your response, unless you're just going to throw just another quote at me in lieu of actual facts to back up your claims.
    Again, this has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Besides, I'm against our current tax structure all together.

    Oh, and your quote is a quote from Mark Twain, who is actually considered a liberal, so I guess trying to remain "silent" while quoting a liberal's quote, while trying to convey a conservative point of view, is there a foolish quote for that specific situation?
    Your mistake is that you think I'm coming at any of this as a conservative. I'm coming at this from a personal responsibility standpoint.
    02-17-2014 08:03 AM
  11. Paul627g's Avatar
    A few posts were removed/cleaned up. My apologies.

    Paul
    Moderator Team Leader @ Android Central.
    02-17-2014 09:54 AM
  12. oz123's Avatar
    The low management fees, from what I've been told, is likely due in large part to a lack of marketing. The funds in a TSP aren't competing with the rest of the market, so there isn't a need. Not sure how true that is, but I'm sure that's part of it. The other part could be that it's a more tightly controlled system, like comparing Apple to Android environments. What you get for that isn't worth it to me because part of it is invested in the bond market and the investments have the automatic move to conservative funds as you age. Both are things I think are a bad idea. I'd rather diversify my funds in a way I want and leave them there until I decide to move them.
    https://www.tsp.gov/investmentfunds/...onMatrix.shtml

    http://www.pionline.com/article/2013...d-208-trillion
    02-18-2014 06:29 PM
  13. SteveISU's Avatar
    If this plan was offered to me I would jump at it. But it is only a proposition that will never be implemented. I wish it was put in place, as more American citizens would benefit in their retirement.

    Thrift Savings Plan - The Model for all 401(k) Plans! - CBS News

    This is what is being offered by the American government.

    What Obama's myRA Plan Could Do for You - DailyFinance

    1. The government has already racked up trillions in unfunded liabilities in SS and Medicare, I wouldn't voluntarily hand them more of my money for retirement.

    2. It is the parents responsibility to plan for their own retirement and if they want to start a savings for their child (for whatever reason, ie....college, ect) it is their decision/responsibility. It is not the governments job to hand over $1000 to every child. If you wanna act like an adult and make a baby, act like an adult and look after that baby and his/her future.
    02-20-2014 10:31 AM
  14. oz123's Avatar
    1. The government has already racked up trillions in unfunded liabilities in SS and Medicare, I wouldn't voluntarily hand them more of my money for retirement.
    Your SS is fully funded at the moment, it is forward projections that will have it in deficit. This is why I think a TSP fund would be a good option to help alleviate the shortfall in the future.
    02-22-2014 04:01 AM
  15. A895's Avatar
    Just heard about this today and I'm hoping it doesn't pickup steam again.

    How Giving $1,000 to Every Baby in America Could Reduce Income Inequality - NationalJournal.com



    That was the first iteration of the plan, but they mention a second later on in the article. I'm sure they'd come up with another, more current, plan if introduced again. Either way, the government would be giving free money to people that didn't do anything to earn it, and then expecting them to handle it wisely (be it through qualified early withdrawals or in retirement). That's a pretty tall order. Almost as tall as me expecting the government to handle the funds wisely while in their "care."

    Having ample retirement and being sensible with it come from learning sound money habits, not being handed a million bucks (I'm figuring a higher earning than the article's 5%). Simply reading the stories about how winning big lottery payouts was the worst thing to happen to those people shows that wealth, or lack thereof, isn't a money issue. It's a personal issue.

    Yes, on paper, those numbers are quite nice. The return amount sounded pretty conservative to me, so it would probably be much better on paper. "On paper" doesn't take into account human nature, especially the nature of people you don't know. You take the average Joe at 65 that grew up poor and only lived a mediocre life and watch what happens with those retirement funds. They will live it up with the high life until all that money is blown and be right back where they started, if not worse.
    Wow, your last paragraph sounds a little harsh. The problem is that conservative s think that the average and low income can't be trusted with money. They may be true for some but not true for all. If you trust them with the money they might surprise you and spend wisely. Generalizations is one of the reasons why we as a country are not able to come together as we should.

    Posted via VZW Moto X on the Android Central App
    msndrstood likes this.
    02-23-2014 09:07 AM
  16. Mooncatt's Avatar
    There is still plenty of opportunity in this country to make something of yourself. The problem is how people deal with their choices. Even if you start out working as a Wal-Mart cashier or the fry guy at McDonald's, it's possible to advance into management roles within the company with enough perseverance. Those are pretty good paying jobs. Can't say for sure, but I think I've heard Wal-Mart store managers make six figure incomes. Conversely, a wealthy person has just as much chance, if not more, to make bad choices that lead them into the poor house.

    It's not a matter that what I said sounded harsh. It's just reality that by and large, poor people make choices that keep them poor, and wealthy people make choices that keep them wealthy. Simply handing a poor person money won't fix their problems, and the wealthy just wouldn't need the help. Those in the middle will have varying degrees of "success" with such a handout. If they know how to handle money, they will be ok and probably already have retirement setup. If they don't know how, then this handout isn't likely to do them any good long term because it'll be squandered.
    02-23-2014 09:46 AM
  17. A895's Avatar
    Not all poor people make poor choices, that's what I was saying about generalizations. We don't why some people are poor they could come from poor families or they could or they became poor through circumstance like losing their job. We don't know, what we do know is that anything we can do to help those in need is a good thing instead of hoping for a miracle like a pay raise or a promotion to happen once every ten years. Like what that woman was saying to the McDonalds president about working for them for 10 years and still making less than $9.00 an hour. McDonalds is one of those companies where they rarely promote in house employees. Walmart I can say is similar. The only way to get ahead most of the time is education, but education costs so much that sometimes its not worth it when you work two jobs and have a family to take care of.

    Posted via VZW Moto X on the Android Central App
    02-23-2014 10:16 AM
  18. NoYankees44's Avatar
    Wow, your last paragraph sounds a little harsh. The problem is that conservative s think that the average and low income can't be trusted with money. They may be true for some but not true for all. If you trust them with the money they might surprise you and spend wisely. Generalizations is one of the reasons why we as a country are not able to come together as we should.

    Posted via VZW Moto X on the Android Central App
    If people did not think that low income earns are too incompetent to fund their own retirement, suggested policies like this would not exist. If you want to talk about generalizations, this is the big one.
    02-23-2014 10:36 AM
  19. A895's Avatar
    If people did not think that low income earns are too incompetent to fund their own retirement, suggested policies like this would not exist. If you want to talk about generalizations, this is the big one.
    But its for EVERYBODY. Everyone gets the 1,000 rich or poor. Big difference.

    Posted via VZW Moto X on the Android Central App
    02-23-2014 11:05 AM
  20. NoYankees44's Avatar
    But its for EVERYBODY. Everyone gets the 1,000 rich or poor. Big difference.

    Posted via VZW Moto X on the Android Central App
    Look at what income brackets actually fund the federal government and consequently this, and then look at what income bracket is explicitly referenced in the bill. Then come back and tell me who this is really for.
    02-23-2014 11:21 AM
  21. A895's Avatar
    Look at what income brackets actually fund the federal government and consequently this, and then look at what income bracket is explicitly referenced in the bill. Then come back and tell me who this is really for.
    Does it matter? Every little bit can help.

    Posted via VZW Moto X on the Android Central App
    02-23-2014 11:28 AM
  22. NoYankees44's Avatar
    Does it matter? Every little bit can help.

    Posted via VZW Moto X on the Android Central App
    To suggest this policy means that you assume that the lower income earners NEED this money. This means that you also assume that they could not generate it on their own(unless you like giving tax payer money away for no reason). So you then take the money from someone else and give to them because you believe they need it.

    So yes, who it is effectively for matters, and in stating that, you assume that whoever it is for cannot generate their retirement O their own.

    Beyond that, you assume that the population of your country is too stupid to save for their own retirement, so you feel the need to allow the government to save for them. Examples would be this policy and SS.
    02-23-2014 11:42 AM
  23. A895's Avatar
    To suggest this policy means that you assume that the lower income earners NEED this money. This means that you also assume that they could not generate it on their own(unless you like giving tax payer money away for no reason). So you then take the money from someone else and give to them because you believe they need it.

    So yes, who it is effectively for matters, and in stating that, you assume that whoever it is for cannot generate their retirement O their own.

    Beyond that, you assume that the population of your country is too stupid to save for their own retirement, so you feel the need to allow the government to save for them. Examples would be this policy and SS.
    If the tax payer money has been taken out, why not put in in the lower class who will then in turn use this money to put it back in the economy. Government has a duty to the people who vote for them to make sure they have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Can't be happy if you have an eviction notice and still have a family to feed eh?

    Posted via VZW Moto X on the Android Central App
    msndrstood and nolittdroid like this.
    02-23-2014 11:49 AM
  24. NoYankees44's Avatar
    If the tax payer money has been taken out, why not put in in the lower class who will then in turn use this money to put it back in the economy. Government has a duty to the people who vote for them to make sure they have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Can't be happy if you have an eviction notice and still have a family to feed eh?

    Posted via VZW Moto X on the Android Central App
    You said that the generalization that low income people cannot manage their money was bad. I merely pointed out that this policy was founded on that generalization.

    You have the right to pursue happiness. Not the guarantee that you will be happy or even that that you will have the means to be. Just the right to pursue.
    02-23-2014 01:24 PM
  25. A895's Avatar
    You said that the generalization that low income people cannot manage their money was bad. I merely pointed out that this policy was founded on that generalization.

    You have the right to pursue happiness. Not the guarantee that you will be happy or even that that you will have the means to be. Just the right to pursue.
    How can you pursue something that you have no hope for ever having? Living pay check to pay check is a reality for most Americans and I think that little incentives like this helps everyone in the long run. It shows the government cares for its people and wants to help and it puts some money in all citizens pockets.

    Posted via VZW Moto X on the Android Central App
    02-23-2014 01:38 PM
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