02-03-2015 05:27 AM
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  1. palandri's Avatar
    Thank you for the explanation. I try not to let the media influence my thoughts and instead make the attempt to rely on what I see in my own life. I may feel differently if my observations were just "one off" occurrences, but I see it happening every day and it tends to wear on a person's soul after a while. We have a system in place that punishes those that follows the rules and rewards those that break them. I know that programs are set up in the name of the public good, but these same programs are eroding the foundations of this country making every generation a little worse than the one before. We are living in a time when wants equal needs and needs are rights and all rights are to be provided by the government. People are not taking the time to realize that every penny spent by government is either taken from someone that has earned it or borrowed from future generations.
    What you're experiencing is what's called a self-fulfilling prophecy. Your statement, "...People in the ghetto are driving Escalades with 22" rims with the bass rattling the windows while they post selfies taken on their new iphone or S4...." is the perfect example of a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you would like further verification, stop by any local college in your area and talk to any sociologist or psychology instructor about your statement.
    A895 likes this.
    04-03-2014 09:32 AM
  2. Evilguppy's Avatar
    What is wrong with this country is that we have elevated the poor while demonizing the rich. We have attached a kind nobility to those that are struggling to make ends meet while turning those that are actually productive into something less than human. When I say productive, I am not talking about those that make a living scamming and defrauding others, I am talking about those that actually make things. I am talking about the builders, the architects, the doctors, the inventors, the people that keep this country moving. I am talking about the ones that we can not live without, the ones that keep the lights on and the fuel in our tanks. You talk about having "skin in the game"? How much more do you want from the men and women that put in 90 hours a week just to make your life a little more comfortable? You've already taken their blood, sweat and tears, now, you want their skin too?
    Demonizing the rich??? LOL... remember the financial crisis of 2008? Who do you think is responsible for that? It sure as he'll isn't the single parent struggling to make ends meet with 3 minimum wage jobs and a couple of kids to feed while being called a parasite by the greedy useless polyp who just voted to end food stamps and works half a year for a 6 figure income.
    Demonizing the rich... people are still losing their homes and the rich are still enjoying having been bailed out for causing the worst financial crisis since the great depression.
    But the rich now have carte blanche to buy politicians because the supreme court has decided they should be able to donate whatever they want to political campaigns. The laws were always written by the rich, for the rich, but now it comes with live middle fingers wagging in our faces.
    Wake up and smell the petunias.
    I consider myself ridiculously privileged: my husband and I are self employed and are able to support ourselves. We clip coupons and save for months to be able to afford certain things without relying on credit, like the tablet I'm typing on, for example.
    And yet while we try to fund our retirement account, we both know that we will never stop working and that our only luck is in staying healthy enough to keep working, otherwise we'll both be in the dumps.
    Tell me again how the rich are "demonized".
    msndrstood, palandri and A895 like this.
    04-03-2014 10:04 AM
  3. toober's Avatar
    Demonizing the rich??? LOL... remember the financial crisis of 2008? Who do you think is responsible for that? It sure as he'll isn't the single parent struggling to make ends meet with 3 minimum wage jobs and a couple of kids to feed while being called a parasite by the greedy useless polyp who just voted to end food stamps and works half a year for a 6 figure income.
    Demonizing the rich... people are still losing their homes and the rich are still enjoying having been bailed out for causing the worst financial crisis since the great depression.
    But the rich now have carte blanche to buy politicians because the supreme court has decided they should be able to donate whatever they want to political campaigns. The laws were always written by the rich, for the rich, but now it comes with live middle fingers wagging in our faces.
    Wake up and smell the petunias.
    I consider myself ridiculously privileged: my husband and I are self employed and are able to support ourselves. We clip coupons and save for months to be able to afford certain things without relying on credit, like the tablet I'm typing on, for example.
    And yet while we try to fund our retirement account, we both know that we will never stop working and that our only luck is in staying healthy enough to keep working, otherwise we'll both be in the dumps.
    Tell me again how the rich are "demonized".
    Maybe the problem is that we are looking at different things. The rich that I am speaking of are not those that have lied, cheated and stolen their way to material wealth. I am talking about the ones that have sacrificed, saved, and worked very hard for what they have.

    My step father came from a very poor family. His parents died when he was still in high school. After graduating, he joined the navy and spent a few years seeing the world and saving his money. Once his time in the navy was done, he put himself through college in a time when there was no such thing as financial aid. He couldn't afford a dorm room, so he slept in the hallway. He graduated with a degree in nuclear engineering and worked as a contractor in the design and building of power plants around the country. He spent many years traveling from one plant to the next, living in a trailer and growing his wealth for a time he could stop working and settle down. Even after marrying my mother, he would still work 14 hours a day, 5-6 days a week. Our family moved with him, never staying in one place for more than a year at a time, until settling in upstate New York where he took a cut in pay to stay and operate one of the plants he had helped build. He still worked 14+ hours a day, leaving the house when it was dark and coming home in the dark most of the time. Finally, at the age of 70, after all the kids were grown and moved away, he was able to retire and move to Florida. It took him around 2 years to finish landscaping the house, finish reading the books he had put off for so long, and become totally bored with retirement. He then decided to go back to school and got a teaching degree. At 78, he is still very active and continues to work and grow. This is the kind of person I think of when I think of the wealthy, not some fat banker making back room deals with his politician buddies. This man, the product of a long forgotten generation, is the one that I am concerned about when I hear it said that some people make "too much" and need to pay more.

    One of my wife's cousins came from a poor family. He married a woman this was "a bit slow" and was on disability. Together they had 3 children, each of which were also on disability for being a bit slow. He didn't work because according to him, his wife was unable to take care of the kids if he left to work. Thing is, he was working under the table as a logger. When the kids were old enough to start school, they were all given instructions that they were not to pass any tests or show any ability at all. If they tested out of special ed classes, they would have been beat. Each month, When the EBT card he would go to town and buy everything needed for a big cookout. Friends would come over with the alcohol and he would provide the food for the party. They would spend at least one weekend a month eating well and partying then spend the rest of the month living on next to nothing at all. His children were always dirty and hungry. His house was falling apart from abuse and disrepair. This is the kind of person I am speaking of when I talk of the ones abusing the system. I know there are some that work hard and struggle to make ends meet, and I feel for them. I still do not feel that anyone's need gives them a claim to anything produced by the labor of another.
    04-03-2014 11:06 AM
  4. A895's Avatar
    Maybe the problem is that we are looking at different things. The rich that I am speaking of are not those that have lied, cheated and stolen their way to material wealth. I am talking about the ones that have sacrificed, saved, and worked very hard for what they have.

    My step father came from a very poor family. His parents died when he was still in high school. After graduating, he joined the navy and spent a few years seeing the world and saving his money. Once his time in the navy was done, he put himself through college in a time when there was no such thing as financial aid. He couldn't afford a dorm room, so he slept in the hallway. He graduated with a degree in nuclear engineering and worked as a contractor in the design and building of power plants around the country. He spent many years traveling from one plant to the next, living in a trailer and growing his wealth for a time he could stop working and settle down. Even after marrying my mother, he would still work 14 hours a day, 5-6 days a week. Our family moved with him, never staying in one place for more than a year at a time, until settling in upstate New York where he took a cut in pay to stay and operate one of the plants he had helped build. He still worked 14+ hours a day, leaving the house when it was dark and coming home in the dark most of the time. Finally, at the age of 70, after all the kids were grown and moved away, he was able to retire and move to Florida. It took him around 2 years to finish landscaping the house, finish reading the books he had put off for so long, and become totally bored with retirement. He then decided to go back to school and got a teaching degree. At 78, he is still very active and continues to work and grow. This is the kind of person I think of when I think of the wealthy, not some fat banker making back room deals with his politician buddies. This man, the product of a long forgotten generation, is the one that I am concerned about when I hear it said that some people make "too much" and need to pay more.

    One of my wife's cousins came from a poor family. He married a woman this was "a bit slow" and was on disability. Together they had 3 children, each of which were also on disability for being a bit slow. He didn't work because according to him, his wife was unable to take care of the kids if he left to work. Thing is, he was working under the table as a logger. When the kids were old enough to start school, they were all given instructions that they were not to pass any tests or show any ability at all. If they tested out of special ed classes, they would have been beat. Each month, When the EBT card he would go to town and buy everything needed for a big cookout. Friends would come over with the alcohol and he would provide the food for the party. They would spend at least one weekend a month eating well and partying then spend the rest of the month living on next to nothing at all. His children were always dirty and hungry. His house was falling apart from abuse and disrepair. This is the kind of person I am speaking of when I talk of the ones abusing the system. I know there are some that work hard and struggle to make ends meet, and I feel for them. I still do not feel that anyone's need gives them a claim to anything produced by the labor of another.
    So your anecdote trumps the millions of people who use government programs correctly? Or rely on them for the great help they provide? If you feel that way, I feel that no one who is wealthy should be dictating how tax money is spent. But they do.

    Sent from my XT1060 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    04-03-2014 11:21 AM
  5. Evilguppy's Avatar
    I hate to tell you, but your uncle isn't "rich". He worked his **** off to give his kids a good start and wind up comfortable, and that should definitely be respected, but he's not rich.
    Secondly, you are putting all welfare recipients in the same bag as someone you know who takes advantage of the system.
    Well I could give you several examples of people who do not abuse the system yet are still labeled as leeches by people who know nothing of the realities of having to live with that system.
    And we all know that what the rich have done to this country was done not by one or two individuals but by entire groups that included banks and other financial institutions as well as politicians and other lawmakers.
    Let's not compare apples to oranges, here.
    A895 likes this.
    04-03-2014 11:43 AM
  6. toober's Avatar
    So your anecdote trumps the millions of people who use government programs correctly? Or rely on them for the great help they provide? If you feel that way, I feel that no one who is wealthy should be dictating how tax money is spent. But they do.

    Sent from my XT1060 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    That is why I really don't like using anecdotes to make a point. The person I used as an example is only one of at least a dozen I know gaming the system. I know there are people that use the system in the exact manner it was planned. One thing that neither you nor anyone else that is in support of the system have stated is what claim these people have to what was earned by someone else. What does the government owe these people and why?

    The wealthy should have no say in how tax money is spent? You think that they should just give up their money and go away? To me, that would be like my kids not wanting me to not decide how to spend my paycheck. Hate to tell you this, but the guy that pays the bill is the one that should decide where the money goes.
    04-03-2014 03:05 PM
  7. Serial Fordicator's Avatar
    I hate to tell you, but your uncle isn't "rich". He worked his **** off to give his kids a good start and wind up comfortable, and that should definitely be respected, but he's not rich.
    Secondly, you are putting all welfare recipients in the same bag as someone you know who takes advantage of the system.
    Well I could give you several examples of people who do not abuse the system yet are still labeled as leeches by people who know nothing of the realities of having to live with that system.
    And we all know that what the rich have done to this country was done not by one or two individuals but by entire groups that included banks and other financial institutions as well as politicians and other lawmakers.
    Let's not compare apples to oranges, here.
    It depends on what someone's definition is. I've heard 60k, over 100k, over 250k and on and on. People's mindset usually is anyone who makes more money than them are rich. Not all rich people are bad and not all poor people are either. Rich and poor take advantage of government subsidies and need to be stopped. We can all believe the same old lines that their political party feeds them, but sometimes we all need to step back and look at the bigger picture.

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    04-03-2014 03:09 PM
  8. A895's Avatar
    That is why I really don't like using anecdotes to make a point. The person I used as an example is only one of at least a dozen I know gaming the system. I know there are people that use the system in the exact manner it was planned. One thing that neither you nor anyone else that is in support of the system have stated is what claim these people have to what was earned by someone else. What does the government owe these people and why?

    The wealthy should have no say in how tax money is spent? You think that they should just give up their money and go away? To me, that would be like my kids not wanting me to not decide how to spend my paycheck. Hate to tell you this, but the guy that pays the bill is the one that should decide where the money goes.
    I don't think rich people should be running a country because they are too far out of touch with the people. Look at Mitt Romney, we all saw how that went for him. The guy that pays the bill? I thought we already discussed how the wealthy avoid taxes or pay smaller percentage rates than those who make less. It should be the people who are the majority (low to middle class) who should be having the most say.

    Sent from my XT1060 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    palandri likes this.
    04-03-2014 04:40 PM
  9. toober's Avatar
    I don't think rich people should be running a country because they are too far out of touch with the people. Look at Mitt Romney, we all saw how that went for him. The guy that pays the bill? I thought we already discussed how the wealthy avoid taxes or pay smaller percentage rates than those who make less. It should be the people who are the majority (low to middle class) who should be having the most say.

    Sent from my XT1060 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    So the people running the country should be those that contribute least? What happens when they run out of other people's money?
    04-03-2014 05:14 PM
  10. Aquila's Avatar
    So the people running the country should be those that contribute least? What happens when they run out of other people's money?
    I think that we still teach that legislatures ought to be designing laws to protect the interests and Rights of all citizens equally, ignoring their financial status and/or contributions to campaigns, revenue, etc. There is no degree of "wrongness" that's different between representing only the poor vs only the rich from a logic standpoint, but it does seem to rub people's democratic bone wrong to see the Rights and interests 1-5% of the population held as more deserving of protection than the other 95-99%.
    msndrstood likes this.
    04-03-2014 05:43 PM
  11. oz123's Avatar
    I think the input into the American economy by the general population is way understated. The days of the so called rich running the economy is a fallacy, it is the general populace that is backbone of the economy. The major share holders of fortune 500 companies are institutional investors, and that is the people of America.

    http://www.pionline.com/article/2013...d-208-trillion
    04-03-2014 06:20 PM
  12. Mooncatt's Avatar
    I don't care what a person's financial standing is when in government. I just want the people that promote personal and fiscal responsibilities, as well as creating business friendly environments for all.
    qxr likes this.
    04-03-2014 06:28 PM
  13. A895's Avatar
    So the people running the country should be those that contribute least? What happens when they run out of other people's money?
    They should not be running the country. That's my point. You are going to have to expand on "other peoples money".
    04-03-2014 09:10 PM
  14. toober's Avatar
    They should not be running the country. That's my point. You are going to have to expand on "other peoples money".
    Other people's money is what they are spending in Washington. It is money put into the system by tax payers. Politicians are not running around making promises that will be paid for from their own bank accounts. They are promising money taken from tax payers and borrowed from future generations. We're all for raising the debt ceiling as long as no one thinks about who is going to eventually pay back the debt we are running up.
    04-03-2014 09:40 PM
  15. A895's Avatar
    Other people's money is what they are spending in Washington. It is money put into the system by tax payers. Politicians are not running around making promises that will be paid for from their own bank accounts. They are promising money taken from tax payers and borrowed from future generations. We're all for raising the debt ceiling as long as no one thinks about who is going to eventually pay back the debt we are running up.
    There will still be taxes, just different people in charge.
    04-03-2014 10:10 PM
  16. anon8126715's Avatar
    Other people's money is what they are spending in Washington. It is money put into the system by tax payers. Politicians are not running around making promises that will be paid for from their own bank accounts. They are promising money taken from tax payers and borrowed from future generations. We're all for raising the debt ceiling as long as no one thinks about who is going to eventually pay back the debt we are running up.
    Without the U.S. infrastructure in place, the wealthy would most likely not be able to realize the level of wealth that they have today. Considering that the U.S. infrastructure has been neglected as much as it has, I don't know why having the wealthiest (the people that benefit the MOST from a good infrastructure) pay a little more in taxes is such a foreign concept to you and many people. The reason we are in the debt we're in is because people are led to believe that the "Job creators" need to be given a free pass. Just look at how the right wing blasted Obama when he mentioned "You didn't build that". He was referring to the infrastructure that enabled the wealthy to realize their wealth. This country was great because we were a UNITED nation, not "every man for himself".

    The wealthy have pulled the wool over your eyes so they could fleece this country. Do a google search on wealth inequality, highest tax bracket rates history in the U.S., and you'll see that the problem isn't that we're taxing the wealthy too much and giving it all to the poor. If that was the problem then the poor wouldn't be poor and we wouldn't have more people classified as poor. I'm not sure why it's so difficult to comprehend.
    04-06-2014 08:04 PM
  17. toober's Avatar
    Without the U.S. infrastructure in place, the wealthy would most likely not be able to realize the level of wealth that they have today. Considering that the U.S. infrastructure has been neglected as much as it has, I don't know why having the wealthiest (the people that benefit the MOST from a good infrastructure) pay a little more in taxes is such a foreign concept to you and many people. The reason we are in the debt we're in is because people are led to believe that the "Job creators" need to be given a free pass. Just look at how the right wing blasted Obama when he mentioned "You didn't build that". He was referring to the infrastructure that enabled the wealthy to realize their wealth. This country was great because we were a UNITED nation, not "every man for himself".

    The wealthy have pulled the wool over your eyes so they could fleece this country. Do a google search on wealth inequality, highest tax bracket rates history in the U.S., and you'll see that the problem isn't that we're taxing the wealthy too much and giving it all to the poor. If that was the problem then the poor wouldn't be poor and we wouldn't have more people classified as poor. I'm not sure why it's so difficult to comprehend.
    I'm all for the government building and maintaining the infrastructure. It's one of the few things, along with the military, that the government should be responsible for. The things the government should not be doing, but still does, are too numerous to list. Not just welfare to our own citizens, but throwing money into other countries as well. Everything from farm subsidies to help struggling farmers to paying people to plant trees on their land and not farm it at all. Throw in bailouts for companies that can't make their own profits and it adds up pretty fast. With hundreds of channels on the radio, do we really need NPR? PBS is another waste. It goes on and on.
    04-06-2014 08:26 PM
  18. NoYankees44's Avatar
    Without the U.S. infrastructure in place, the wealthy would most likely not be able to realize the level of wealth that they have today. Considering that the U.S. infrastructure has been neglected as much as it has, I don't know why having the wealthiest (the people that benefit the MOST from a good infrastructure) pay a little more in taxes is such a foreign concept to you and many people. The reason we are in the debt we're in is because people are led to believe that the "Job creators" need to be given a free pass. Just look at how the right wing blasted Obama when he mentioned "You didn't build that". He was referring to the infrastructure that enabled the wealthy to realize their wealth. This country was great because we were a UNITED nation, not "every man for himself".

    The wealthy have pulled the wool over your eyes so they could fleece this country. Do a google search on wealth inequality, highest tax bracket rates history in the U.S., and you'll see that the problem isn't that we're taxing the wealthy too much and giving it all to the poor. If that was the problem then the poor wouldn't be poor and we wouldn't have more people classified as poor. I'm not sure why it's so difficult to comprehend.
    Look at who actually pays the majority of income tax dollars in this country and then get back me.

    I can entertain loopholes being closed and percentages being adjusted, but insinuating that the rich don't pay their fair share is ridiculous when you actually look at the percentages. In 2010 the top 40% payed something like 106% of the income tax(106 because the bottom 40% are a negative tax impact and the Middle 20% basically support themselves). The vast majority of the citezens already have no vested interest in the country which is potentially a huge issue long term.
    04-06-2014 08:32 PM
  19. anon8126715's Avatar
    I'm all for the government building and maintaining the infrastructure. It's one of the few things, along with the military, that the government should be responsible for. The things the government should not be doing, but still does, are too numerous to list. Not just welfare to our own citizens, but throwing money into other countries as well. Everything from farm subsidies to help struggling farmers to paying people to plant trees on their land and not farm it at all. Throw in bailouts for companies that can't make their own profits and it adds up pretty fast. With hundreds of channels on the radio, do we really need NPR? PBS is another waste. It goes on and on.
    NoYankee has advised me not to have serious discussions with you.....
    04-06-2014 08:38 PM
  20. anon8126715's Avatar
    Look at who actually pays the majority of income tax dollars in this country and then get back me.

    I can entertain loopholes being closed and percentages being adjusted, but insinuating that the rich don't pay their fair share is ridiculous when you actually look at the percentages. In 2010 the top 40% payed something like 106% of the income tax(106 because the bottom 40% are a negative tax impact and the Middle 20% basically support themselves). The vast majority of the citezens already have no vested interest in the country which is potentially a huge issue long term.
    Horrible spelling aside (Yes I'll get on my "The rich should pay for better schooling" soap box later), ask ANY person that receives more tax money than they pay into if they'd rather have a salary that affords them to pay even a modest tax rate, and they'll all tell you "YES".

    The reason the tax burden (percentage wise) is higher for the wealthy is because the rest of the country isn't getting paid what it used to get paid. If more people were making a more livable wage, don't you think they'd have no problem paying taxes? Not to mention the fact that the richest among us have seen their salaries rise at a much higher rate than the tax rates have risen.

    If my salary were to rise by 300% and I was asked to pay 40% more taxes, guess what, I'd still be ahead of the game. If the tax burden on the rich is so much worse than that of the poor then there's a simple solution, tell the rich to give away all their money and become poor. I mean that's what you're saying right?
    04-06-2014 08:45 PM
  21. NoYankees44's Avatar
    I like my G1 slider keyboard, but I'm also used to using WM phones and they have a soft keyboard. I've played around with the iPhone keyboard and think it's ok. The G1 has a similar screen and think a soft keyboard would work on it too. Is someone going to make one for the G1? It would be nice to not have to slide it open for everything. Anyone heard anything?
    Then fix the economy so the jobs are available. You can complain about the "rich" all you want. Nothing you do to them will change anything except maybe drive them and the jobs they tend to create away. The economy is what will fix everything. Playing the blame game is nothing but envious and childish.
    04-06-2014 08:50 PM
  22. toober's Avatar
    NoYankee has advised me not to have serious discussions with you.....
    LOL, I hope not. While I do tend toward sarcasm, most of the time I am genuinely open for debate.
    04-06-2014 08:50 PM
  23. Mooncatt's Avatar
    The reason we are in the debt we're in is because people are led to believe that the "Job creators" need to be given a free pass.
    Unchecked government spending and lack of zero based government budgets are most likely the reason.
    04-06-2014 09:08 PM
  24. anon8126715's Avatar
    Unchecked government spending and lack of zero based government budgets are most likely the reason.
    The problem is that the same people that have a problem with it now didn't have a problem with it over 6 years ago. Thus, it looks like partisan rhetoric and loses credibility. The Tea-Party claims they had problems with GWB's spending, yet they magically didn't appear until Obama was elected. Seems a little suspect to me.
    04-06-2014 09:24 PM
  25. Mooncatt's Avatar
    The problem is that the same people that have a problem with it now didn't have a problem with it over 6 years ago. Thus, it looks like partisan rhetoric and loses credibility. The Tea-Party claims they had problems with GWB's spending, yet they magically didn't appear until Obama was elected. Seems a little suspect to me.
    We've had problems with spending long before that. I don't care who's in charge, spending more than you take in is a big problem.
    04-06-2014 10:08 PM
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