02-03-2015 05:27 AM
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  1. A895's Avatar
    Some tidbits to think about:

    Six figures in several parts of the country only gets a single person or couple through rent/utilities and food. 40k in some parts of the country can easily house and feed a family of four. Picking a number out of thin air is ridiculous. Taxes and cost of living are completely different area to area. Thus what is a lot of money to someone is nothing to someone else.

    The giant misconception with this whole discussion is what the government SHOULD do. Some believe that the government should do absolutely everything. Others believe that citizens should be more responsible for maintaining society voluntarily instead of being mandated and limited.

    Keep in mind everything the government does increases the tax burden on the citizens and thus limits their potential.

    There is no greater slap in the face to someone that has overcome diversity than to tell them that what they did is impossible without someone else's help. By the same coin, to tell someone that they need you is to deprive them or relying on themselves.

    You cannot legislate success or compassion. The more you try, the less you will have. You cannot raise the bottom by pull the top down.
    I will make my own government! With Hookers! And BlackJack! Matter of fact, forget the government! Bah! Screw the whole thing.
    04-01-2014 10:01 AM
  2. Mooncatt's Avatar
    Everything the government does is not a tax burden on the citizens. For instance, a federal excise tax on imports, let's say alcohol and tobacco. Then that tax is used to fund the government.
    Who do you think pays that excise tax? Hint: It's not the businesses.
    04-01-2014 10:17 AM
  3. palandri's Avatar
    Who do you think pays that excise tax? Hint: It's not the businesses.
    Hint: Do you think people who look for the made in the USA label pay it?
    A895 likes this.
    04-01-2014 10:26 AM
  4. NoYankees44's Avatar
    Everything the government does is not a tax burden on the citizens. For instance, a federal excise tax on imports, let's say alcohol and tobacco. Then that tax is used to fund the government.
    A fair point, but how small is that a impact to overall government expenditure after you factor out the cost of legislating and enforcing said taxes?
    palandri likes this.
    04-01-2014 10:30 AM
  5. palandri's Avatar
    A fair point, but how small is that a impact to overall government expenditure after you factor out the cost of legislating and enforcing said taxes?
    That's a fair point too! It was 95% of federal funding back in the beginning 17??, now it's less than 2%.
    NoYankees44 likes this.
    04-01-2014 10:39 AM
  6. NoYankees44's Avatar
    I will make my own government! With Hookers! And BlackJack! Matter of fact, forget the government! Bah! Screw the whole thing.
    Unfortunately your view is too narrow to see anything other than absolutes, you you make petty jokes like this to imply that i am advocating the removal of the government.

    The government is not the answer to everything. Just because there is poverty and hardship does not mean the government has to be the sole solution to the problem. The government in every situation is an option. Sometimes that option is preferable. Sometimes it is not. People like myself simply point out that there are other ways to deal with problems. Many times those ways are preferable. Sometimes they are not. The debate is when to use which solution. If you always only see the government as a solution, then i would love to have you as a voter if i were a politician. Why promote the people to help themselves when i can promote them to need me? Thus empowering myself. Its always more fun spending someone else's money.
    Serial Fordicator and toober like this.
    04-01-2014 10:39 AM
  7. Mooncatt's Avatar
    Hint: Do you think people who look for the made in the USA label pay it?
    It doesn't matter what entity is taxed or where something is made. If our government taxes it, the cost is passed on to the consumer. But you should know by now from other threads about my views on a better way to collect them than we are now.
    04-01-2014 11:03 AM
  8. A895's Avatar
    Unfortunately your view is too narrow to see anything other than absolutes, you you make petty jokes like this to imply that i am advocating the removal of the government.

    The government is not the answer to everything. Just because there is poverty and hardship does not mean the government has to be the sole solution to the problem. The government in every situation is an option. Sometimes that option is preferable. Sometimes it is not. People like myself simply point out that there are other ways to deal with problems. Many times those ways are preferable. Sometimes they are not. The debate is when to use which solution. If you always only see the government as a solution, then i would love to have you as a voter if i were a politician. Why promote the people to help themselves when i can promote them to need me? Thus empowering myself. Its always more fun spending someone else's money.
    I was not implying anything. It was a joke. I can see more than absolutes, I'm still younger than 25 so I still have a lot more to see. There are plenty of ways to find solutions, but seeing the way government is set up now, we have very few to choose from and as of right now, we have to choose the lesser of two evils and which evil is the lesser one is still up for debate.

    Sent from my XT1060 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    04-01-2014 11:26 AM
  9. A895's Avatar
    It doesn't matter what entity is taxed or where something is made. If our government taxes it, the cost is passed on to the consumer. But you should know by now from other threads about my views on a better way to collect them than we are now.
    Moooncatt for president?

    Sent from my XT1060 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    04-01-2014 11:27 AM
  10. Mooncatt's Avatar
    Moooncatt for president?
    Pfft. Even if I wanted the job, no one person will fix the problems in D.C.
    04-01-2014 11:32 AM
  11. palandri's Avatar
    It doesn't matter what entity is taxed or where something is made. If our government taxes it, the cost is passed on to the consumer. But you should know by now from other threads about my views on a better way to collect them than we are now.
    So we have a Swedish Vodka Exporter who operates at a 30% profit margin, but he has a backlog of vodka he want to get rid of. So instead of adding the import tax to the price of the vodka, he absorbs the fee and lowers his profit margin to 20% to get rid of the vodka.
    04-01-2014 12:01 PM
  12. A895's Avatar
    Pfft. Even if I wanted the job, no one person will fix the problems in D.C.
    If no one person can fix D.C. how do we fix it?

    Sent from my XT1060 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    04-01-2014 12:06 PM
  13. Mooncatt's Avatar
    So we have a Swedish Vodka Exporter who operates at a 30% profit margin, but he has a backlog of vodka he want to get rid of. So instead of adding the import tax to the price of the vodka, he absorbs the fee and lowers his profit margin to 20% to get rid of the vodka.
    That's supply vs demand subject, not a tax subject.
    04-01-2014 12:08 PM
  14. Mooncatt's Avatar
    If no one person can fix D.C. how do we fix it?
    The people need to hold them more accountable with elections. Only too many people blindly vote party lines without considering the actual candidate. I'm sure there's other things that could be done too, but it still comes back to citizens holding elected officials accountable.
    04-01-2014 12:31 PM
  15. Aquila's Avatar
    The people need to hold them more accountable with elections. Only too many people blindly vote party lines without considering the actual candidate. I'm sure there's other things that could be done too, but it still comes back to citizens holding elected officials accountable.
    Getting a third party over around 10% of the vote is a monumental task. It'd have to happen in every state, every two years for about 6 years in every election and they'd have to win... somehow. That's thousands of candidates that have to win, without fail.

    And THEN they'd have to not be corrupted by the money, they'd have to tell the republicans and democrats both to go pound sand and not fall into the same mistakes that drown out even the most well intentioned politicians.

    We're talking about an electorate education level that is unprecedented and the public ignoring the media ENTIRELY to find the things that we have common ground on and using that foundation to overturn those that create the false dichotomy of "liberal and conservative" that very few people can look past.
    A895 likes this.
    04-01-2014 01:33 PM
  16. palandri's Avatar
    That's supply vs demand subject, not a tax subject.
    LOL! My example clearly showed the tax not being passed on to the consumer.
    04-01-2014 01:47 PM
  17. Mooncatt's Avatar
    We're talking about an electorate education level that is unprecedented and the public ignoring the media ENTIRELY to find the things that we have common ground on and using that foundation to overturn those that create the false dichotomy of "liberal and conservative" that very few people can look past.
    People also need to think about changing local and state politics. From the politician side, those wanting to make change would do better to engage and win local and state elections first. Those would be easier to win and prove/disprove their concepts before taking them to a national stage. We're already seeing this to some extent.

    LOL! My example clearly showed the tax not being passed on to the consumer.
    No, the exporter only dropped the price do to over supply and underdemand. If you removed the tax all together from the equation, his prices would come down by roughly 10% (going by your example numbers) simply due to competition. That would be where tax comes in to play, not having an overstock sale.

    But let's say the exporter did decide to permanently absorb the tax instead of having a sale. It's still individuals (i.e. the owner(s) and/or shareholders) paying the tax via lost profits. Or it's the workers via having wages held back. No matter how you cut it, indivuduals will always pay the tax, even if it's not paid by the end consumer.

    (BTW, I did mis-state myself in what you quoted earlier. I should have said taxes are always passed to the individual, not the end consumer.)
    04-01-2014 02:14 PM
  18. Aquila's Avatar
    People also need to think about changing local and state politics. From the politician side, those wanting to make change would do better to engage and win local and state elections first. Those would be easier to win and prove/disprove their concepts before taking them to a national stage. We're already seeing this to some extent.
    In theory I'd agree with this, but in practice I'm seeing the opposite. I'm seeing more and more money funneling from out of state and sometimes out of country into some of the most disconnected of districts and that makes the culture of legalized bribery worse. To be clear, I'm not saying educating voters is bad, it is of course not. It's just more useful to go after the problem we can solve first: money out of politics. Get these people buying politicians and hit them with the biggest stick we can find.
    04-01-2014 02:19 PM
  19. A895's Avatar
    The people need to hold them more accountable with elections. Only too many people blindly vote party lines without considering the actual candidate. I'm sure there's other things that could be done too, but it still comes back to citizens holding elected officials accountable.
    I will give you that, many voted for Obama because he was a minority. I know there were some, that thought he had good ideas, me included. He was better than Romney, who was completely out of touch with the people.
    04-01-2014 02:21 PM
  20. msndrstood's Avatar
    I just got home from the grocery store after driving behind a beat up old pick up truck with a 'Ted Nugent for President' bumper sticker.

    Sigh. Sometimes changing the local status quo is like climbing Mt. Everest. 😢 it seems insurmountable and very discouraging. I'm surrounded by similar folks. Yay.

    Not really.

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    palandri and A895 like this.
    04-01-2014 02:22 PM
  21. NoYankees44's Avatar
    LOL! My example clearly showed the tax not being passed on to the consumer.
    Taxes are viewed the same as any other expense. At the end of the day, all that matters how much it costs to get a product in the hands of consumers and how much the consumers are willing to pay. If they are not willing to pay what it costs for a product to be available to them, the product fails. Taxes are one of the many costs that effect this. You have to consider the taxes on raw materials, operating a production facility, import/export, and then to get it to retailers and the sales tax top that the consumer must pay.

    Competition is what keeps prices low. If there were no competition, there companies would simply run profit vs volume equation to determine price and whether or not to invest in creating products at all. Low profitability means that a company is much less likely to invest. Many times, a company will take a loss to enter a market or fight a compeditor. After the market is entered, they can become profitable long term.

    Taxes, like any other cost, fight this. It is not as simple as "this is still profitable so it is still not being taxed too much". The more profits a company can generate, the more it can invest and grow and the more likely the company is to expand and research and try new things. Extra expenses(such as taxes) work against this and limit the potential of the market. Taxes also make it harder for those without money to create a business from scratch by adding to the "cost of entry" fee for creating a product and limiting potential profits for small time businesses.
    04-01-2014 02:37 PM
  22. A895's Avatar
    Taxes are viewed the same as any other expense. At the end of the day, all that matters how much it costs to get a product in the hands of consumers and how much the consumers are willing to pay. If they are not willing to pay what it costs for a product to be available to them, the product fails. Taxes are one of the many costs that effect this. You have to consider the taxes on raw materials, operating a production facility, import/export, and then to get it to retailers and the sales tax top that the consumer must pay.

    Competition is what keeps prices low. If there were no competition, there companies would simply run profit vs volume equation to determine price and whether or not to invest in creating products at all. Low profitability means that a company is much less likely to invest. Many times, a company will take a loss to enter a market or fight a compeditor. After the market is entered, they can become profitable long term.

    Taxes, like any other cost, fight this. It is not as simple as "this is still profitable so it is still not being taxed too much". The more profits a company can generate, the more it can invest and grow and the more likely the company is to expand and research and try new things. Extra expenses(such as taxes) work against this and limit the potential of the market. Taxes also make it harder for those without money to create a business from scratch by adding to the "cost of entry" fee for creating a product and limiting potential profits for small time businesses.
    So tax company`s less? When a lot of big company`s avoid taxes all together or get a bunch of tax breaks:

    18 Of America's Biggest Companies Using Tax Havens To Skirt $92 Billion In U.S. Taxes: CTJ

    Something tells me we need less tax breaks instead of less taxes.
    04-01-2014 03:00 PM
  23. NoYankees44's Avatar
    So tax company`s less? When a lot of big company`s avoid taxes all together or get a bunch of tax breaks:

    18 Of America's Biggest Companies Using Tax Havens To Skirt $92 Billion In U.S. Taxes: CTJ

    Something tells me we need less tax breaks instead of less taxes.
    Those loop holes are intelligently designed so that the politicians can campaign on being hard on the evil corporations while still receiving funding from them. They put there to specifically befit certain corporations.

    "less" is relitive. Understanding the negative consequences of taxation is the key. A society should tax as little as practically possible to reach its goals. The burden should be minimized as much as possible just like you shut off a light in a room you are not using to save electricity.
    04-01-2014 03:51 PM
  24. Mooncatt's Avatar
    So tax company`s less?
    Yes. Zero to be exact, if you ask me.
    04-01-2014 04:01 PM
  25. msndrstood's Avatar
    Yes. Zero to be exact, if you ask me.
    Why should they reap the benefits of being a US company without paying for it? That's crazy. Especially when they ship jobs offshore but make their billions off of American taxpayers.

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    palandri and A895 like this.
    04-01-2014 04:14 PM
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