02-03-2015 05:27 AM
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  1. anon8126715's Avatar
    One thing I'm extremely hopeful for is that the right wing aren't the only ones that show up to the polls come this November. For some reason the past 2-3 off-presidential election years have been dominated by the gun-totting misguided nutbags. There's no way our country is going to be represented accurately with just the extreme right wing fringe going to the polls (Not that we get much better representation since ALL politicians are mostly extensions of our corporations that have the deepest campaign pockets). If you look at polls that ask people if they agree with sensible gun legislation (background checks, closing of loopholes at gun shows, magazine clip size limitations), a majority of people polled believe that these laws need to be passed. Yet our politicians won't go anywhere near these issues. What does that tell you about our representation? Here's to hoping that not just the fringe groups show up at the polls come this November and give us a distorted representation, it's distorted enough.
    04-02-2014 05:59 AM
  2. Serial Fordicator's Avatar
    I think I get what you're saying, and I'm not disinclined to try to think outside the box. What about we don't tax citizens at all and only tax companies? Or only tax imports? With some very small questions about the purpose and scope of government it's relatively easy to create scenarios where the burden is shifted away from real people almost entirely.
    I think by doing this, it would be too hard to find a reason to keep companies here instead of overseas.
    I do agree with taxing imports. I'm all for taxing imported grains to rid the farm subsidies.

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    04-02-2014 07:09 AM
  3. A895's Avatar
    I think by doing this, it would be too hard to find a reason to keep companies here instead of overseas.
    I do agree with taxing imports. I'm all for taxing imported grains to rid the farm subsidies.

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    I was going to disagree with you until I read this:

    http://www.ewg.org/farmbill2013/the-...surance-reform

    Crazy stuff. We do need farm subsidies/insurance reform. Large farms are collecting millions and have unlimited insurance.

    Sent from my XT1060 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    04-02-2014 07:21 AM
  4. Aquila's Avatar
    I think by doing this, it would be too hard to find a reason to keep companies here instead of overseas.
    I do agree with taxing imports. I'm all for taxing imported grains to rid the farm subsidies.

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    There are of course other (and better) options, but those are just thrown out to start the thought process. Maybe "which citizens and how much" is the totally wrong direction, but if that's all we think about, we have no way of figuring that out.
    palandri likes this.
    04-02-2014 07:37 AM
  5. palandri's Avatar
    There are of course other (and better) options, but those are just thrown out to start the thought process. Maybe "which citizens and how much" is the totally wrong direction, but if that's all we think about, we have no way of figuring that out.
    To start with, cut out the loopholes. Remember the big deal over Obama wanting to raise the income tax on people making over $400,000.00 from 35% to 39%? It's a joke, they don't pay that rate. What did Mitt Romney pay? Wasn't it like 14% of his declared income? We pay a higher rate..
    04-02-2014 09:01 AM
  6. pappy53's Avatar
    Why is it always "take more from the rich"? I have read several times that (don't quote me on the numbers, but they are close) the top 5% pay 80% of the income taxes in this country, and the top 20% pay 90%. Seems to me like they are paying their fair share. Add to that that 47% of Americans pay no income tax at all.
    04-02-2014 09:46 AM
  7. Aquila's Avatar
    Why is it always "take more from the rich"? I have read several times that (don't quote me on the numbers, but they are close) the top 5% pay 80% of the income taxes in this country.
    By percentile of people that is pretty close.
    04-02-2014 09:56 AM
  8. Evilguppy's Avatar
    Why is it always "take more from the rich"? I have read several times that (don't quote me on the numbers, but they are close) the top 5% pay 80% of the income taxes in this country, and the top 20% pay 90%. Seems to me like they are paying their fair share. Add to that that 47% of Americans pay no income tax at all.
    just imagine how much revenue could be generated if churches started to pay taxes. As for the rich paying their fair share, Romney pays 14% of his income in taxes. I pay over 30%. My income is nowhere close to his. Financially I'd trade places in a heartbeat and I would gladly pay more.
    A895 likes this.
    04-02-2014 09:57 AM
  9. msndrstood's Avatar
    Why is it always "take more from the rich"? I have read several times that (don't quote me on the numbers, but they are close) the top 5% pay 80% of the income taxes in this country, and the top 20% pay 90%. Seems to me like they are paying their fair share. Add to that that 47% of Americans pay no income tax at all.
    Why, oh why do you guys keep spreading the same false information? The true total of people in the US that pay no income taxes whatsoever is around 7%. Here's a handy chart that explains it, again...

    http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wo...xes-in-charts/

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    04-02-2014 09:58 AM
  10. palandri's Avatar
    Why is it always "take more from the rich"? I have read several times that (don't quote me on the numbers, but they are close) the top 5% pay 80% of the income taxes in this country, and the top 20% pay 90%. Seems to me like they are paying their fair share. Add to that that 47% of Americans pay no income tax at all.
    To make it equitable, they need to pay at least the same percent of their income as we do. They are not paying their fair share. Our tax system starts out progressive, the more you make the more you pay, but then it becomes regressive.
    Evilguppy and A895 like this.
    04-02-2014 10:02 AM
  11. pappy53's Avatar
    Why, oh why do you guys keep spreading the same false information? The true total of people in the US that pay no income taxes whatsoever is around 7%. Here's a handy chart that explains it, again...

    Who doesn’t pay taxes, in eight charts - The Washington Post

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    A quote from your link:

    "When the economy's at full employment, as it was in 2007, it's usually only about 40 percent of U.S. households that aren't paying income taxes"
    04-02-2014 10:04 AM
  12. Aquila's Avatar
    Looking at 2009 ( a year that a lot of research was done on ) the bottom 50% of earners (people) earned 13% of the income and paid 2% of the federal income tax (does not include payroll taxes, etc). The top 50% thus paid 98% of the tax on 87% of the income. The top 10% earned 43% of total income and paid 70% of total tax, etc, etc - ending with the top .1%, who made 8% of the income and paid 17% of the taxes. When you add in the funds taken in for social security, etc it becomes less disproportional on paper, but not by a lot because the bottom 50% are summed to be approximately even with the top 1% and thus, at a percentile level, are not very statistically influential. We've done these numbers before on other years, and not a lot has changed. What this does way of measurement not take into account is the actual burden relative to disposable income, which is what our tax law is set up to address (currently).
    04-02-2014 10:07 AM
  13. msndrstood's Avatar
    And there's this...

    "Only about 7.9 percent of households are not paying any federal taxes at all. That's usually because they're either unemployed or on disability or students or are very poor."

    And this...

    "Many low-income workers don't pay federal income taxes thanks, in part, to a series of tax cuts endorsed by Republicans over the years. The graph below from the Tax Policy Center shows why so many workers who do earn income don't have to pay the income tax. They're exempt under various provisions of the tax code.

    For instance, most (though not all) elderly households are excluded from paying taxes on their Social Security benefits. And low-income workers with children can qualify for the Earned Income Tax Credit or the Child Tax Credit. As Keith Hennessey explains, the latter was a major GOP initiative during the 1990s and 2000s, and conservatives used to tout them as vital poverty-reduction measures. Many low-income workers don't pay federal income taxes thanks, in part, to a series of tax cuts endorsed by Republicans over the years. The graph below from the Tax Policy Center shows why so many workers who do earn income don't have to pay the income tax. They're exempt under various provisions of the tax code."

    Want to keep going?

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    04-02-2014 10:10 AM
  14. Aquila's Avatar
    Why, oh why do you guys keep spreading the same false information? The true total of people in the US that pay no income taxes whatsoever is around 7%. Here's a handy chart that explains it, again...

    Who doesn’t pay taxes, in eight charts - The Washington Post

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    A quote from your link:

    "When the economy's at full employment, as it was in 2007, it's usually only about 40 percent of U.S. households that aren't paying income taxes"
    You guys are using two different terms as if they mean the same thing. 96%+ of Americans pay federal taxes, but only around 54-60% pay federal income tax. The difference being taxes withheld or owed for things that are not just the straight 1040 or other filing, such as social security.
    04-02-2014 10:10 AM
  15. msndrstood's Avatar
    You guys are using two different terms as if they mean the same thing. 96%+ of Americans pay federal taxes, but only around 54-60% pay federal income tax. The difference being taxes withheld or owed for things that are not just the straight 1040 or other filing, such as social security.
    I'm talking about federal income tax, the one that is reported on your 1040 form, taken out of your wages on your paycheck each week. The one that gets most people a tax refund every year. I'm guessing Pappy 53 is talking about the same thing. He can clarify if he is or not.

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    04-02-2014 10:14 AM
  16. pappy53's Avatar
    You guys are using two different terms as if they mean the same thing. 96%+ of Americans pay federal taxes, but only around 54-60% pay federal income tax. The difference being taxes withheld or owed for things that are not just the straight 1040 or other filing, such as social security.
    Yep, and I specified income taxes.
    04-02-2014 10:14 AM
  17. msndrstood's Avatar
    So my point, according to the WaPo article, is correct.

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    04-02-2014 10:15 AM
  18. Aquila's Avatar
    I'm willing to agree that some people (probably most) pay taxes.
    04-02-2014 10:23 AM
  19. Mooncatt's Avatar
    As for the rich paying their fair share, Romney pays 14% of his income in taxes. I pay over 30%. My income is nowhere close to his. Financially I'd trade places in a heartbeat and I would gladly pay more.
    If you're paying over 30% effective tax rate, I'd fire your tax preparer. I don't remember what mine was specifically, but usually hovers around 15% after deductions. Heck, the marginal rates don't even go above 30% until you make well over $100k/year and dependent on filling status.

    http://taxes.about.com/od/Federal-In...-Year-2014.htm

    Meaning you've got to be making some serious bank to have an effective rate anywhere near 30% before any deductions (which would be near impossible not to have at those levels). I'm wondering if you're numbers are off, but if you're seriously making so much that your effective rate is pushing 30%, congrats on winning at life.




    Why, oh why do you guys keep spreading the same false information? The true total of people in the US that pay no income taxes whatsoever is around 7%.
    Usually when I hear this topic brought up, the people talking about near nearly half not paying taxes usually are talking about people that get just as much, or more, government assistance than the amount of taxes they paid in. For example, if you only paid $2000 in taxes, but also got $5000 through various entitlement programs, then you essentially didn't pay any taxes plus got extra.

    I think the terminology can be a bit confusing like that, so I kinda like the term "zero liability voter" for those people. Basically it means that those people don't have any real monetary skin in the game when election time comes. If anything, they would tend to vote for people wanting to give them more of other people's money.
    04-02-2014 11:11 AM
  20. Evilguppy's Avatar
    I won't disclose my financial details here but i am self employed and no, my CPA did not make mistakes, I can assure you.
    04-02-2014 11:14 AM
  21. msndrstood's Avatar
    If you're paying over 30% effective tax rate, I'd fire your tax preparer. I don't remember what mine was specifically, but usually hovers around 15% after deductions. Heck, the marginal rates don't even go above 30% until you make well over $100k/year and dependent on filling status.

    http://taxes.about.com/od/Federal-In...-Year-2014.htm

    Meaning you've got to be making some serious bank to have an effective rate anywhere near 30% before any deductions (which would be near impossible not to have at those levels). I'm wondering if you're numbers are off, but if you're seriously making so much that your effective rate is pushing 30%, congrats on winning at life.





    Usually when I hear this topic brought up, the people talking about near nearly half not paying taxes usually are talking about people that get just as much, or more, government assistance than the amount of taxes they paid in. For example, if you only paid $2000 in taxes, but also got $5000 through various entitlement programs, then you essentially didn't pay any taxes plus got extra.

    I think the terminology can be a bit confusing like that, so I kinda like the term "zero liability voter" for those people. Basically it means that those people don't have any real monetary skin in the game when election time comes. If anything, they would tend to vote for people wanting to give them more of other people's money.
    Ugh, I can't believe you feel that poor people don't have any 'skin' in the game because of their income. THAT is exactly what is wrong with the country today.

    Ugh. I don't even know what else to say about that. That you think so little of your fellow countrymen says volumes about the state of this country.

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    Evilguppy, palandri, A895 and 1 others like this.
    04-02-2014 11:30 AM
  22. Aquila's Avatar
    Usually when I hear this topic brought up, the people talking about near nearly half not paying taxes usually are talking about people that get just as much, or more, government assistance than the amount of taxes they paid in. For example, if you only paid $2000 in taxes, but also got $5000 through various entitlement programs, then you essentially didn't pay any taxes plus got extra.

    I think the terminology can be a bit confusing like that, so I kinda like the term "zero liability voter" for those people. Basically it means that those people don't have any real monetary skin in the game when election time comes. If anything, they would tend to vote for people wanting to give them more of other people's money.
    It still feels a little disingenuous to zero in on only one type of tax, given that everyone is still paying SS,MC, state taxes, sales taxes, fuel taxes, property taxes (it's either them or their landlord and then it's in the rent), taxes hidden in phone bills, utility bills, etc. Some of that money goes local or state, a lot goes federal and they're still paying a significant portion of their income out the door for these taxes - and all of those taxes offset the "progressive" system of federal and state taxes, given that they're all "regressive" taxes... it's still never going to equal the sheer volume of capital that the wealthy earn or pay in taxes, but they are contributing and that perhaps ought to justify observing human dignity and rights as justifiable, if somehow being indignant makes someone less human.
    04-02-2014 11:32 AM
  23. msndrstood's Avatar
    It still feels a little disingenuous to zero in on only one type of tax, given that everyone is still paying SS,MC, state taxes, sales taxes, fuel taxes, property taxes (it's either them or their landlord and then it's in the rent), taxes hidden in phone bills, utility bills, etc. Some of that money goes local or state, a lot goes federal and they're still paying a significant portion of their income out the door for these taxes - and all of those taxes offset the "progressive" system of federal and state taxes, given that they're all "regressive" taxes... it's still never going to equal the sheer volume of capital that the wealthy earn or pay in taxes, but they are contributing and that perhaps ought to justify observing human dignity and rights as justifiable, if somehow being indignant makes someone less human.
    Agree 100%. Taxes by any other name... are taxes.

    And for the religiously inclined, remember 'there but for the grace of God'.

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    04-02-2014 11:39 AM
  24. Mooncatt's Avatar
    Then feel free to come up with a different term for those people. Saying someone doesn't pay taxes can go both ways and why I pointed out the distinction.
    04-02-2014 11:46 AM
  25. toober's Avatar
    And for the religiously inclined, remember 'there but for the grace of God'.
    While I do believe in God, I will not attribute any of my successes or failures to him, but to my own efforts or lack thereof. Like any good father, God has not only given us his guidance in his word on how to live our lives, but the free will to make our own choices and learn from them. When I look at my life, I see it as the product of decisions that I have made, both good and bad, that have led me to where I am. I do not blame anyone else for choices that I have made in my life. Anyone that believes God or Satan is responsible for their success or failure needs to seriously step back and examine their belief system,
    04-02-2014 06:55 PM
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