05-12-2014 11:55 AM
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  1. anon8126715's Avatar
    It's a rigged right wing conspiracy to put a select group of people in jail and cast their voting rights aside. Everyone knows that!
    I guess next thing you're going to tell me is that Gerrymandering isn't real, nor are bogus "voter laws" in place despite the lack of evidence of voting fraud.... Oh and the biggest one, racism is over since we have a black President....
    04-30-2014 12:00 PM
  2. Paul627g's Avatar
    This has went on since long before we were born. It use to be the mob shooting each other up and controlling territory. My father told me Al Capone use to toss silver dollars out of his to car to kids to get their support.
    Yes Chicago has always had its issues. Today though its sad to see the innocent getting killed which is outweighing the ones who are actually TRYING to kill each other.
    palandri likes this.
    04-30-2014 12:02 PM
  3. SteveISU's Avatar
    So, the problems you described are caused by a number of factors. One, gun laws based on one city or even one state do not work simply because you can just bring in things from another town or state. We need comprehensive gun reform nationwide. But the folks in the rural areas won't hear of that, so the people in the city pay the price for that mindset. It's like we've become slaves to the 2nd amendment and well...that's just the way it is as we continue to circle the drain. It just doesn't matter to some people. They don't want to change anything. So people keep dying. As long as it isn't them, there doesn't seem to be much motivation to address the core issues.

    Next cause is lack of jobs, education and upward mobility. Many of these people turn to crime because they see it as an out to the situation that they are in. Some possibly even see a stint in prison as a better life than what they have. So we need to concentrate on giving people some real opportunity in this country. Not $8 an hour flipping burgers for the rest of your life. I blame both parties for this. Alnd really all of society. We've all allowed this to happen and to continue. We treat this problem like we treat the homeless....sweep it under the rug...out of sight out of mind, hoping the problem will just go away. But of course it doesn't. We need a new way of thinking about things and actually address the root problems.

    To think all the gun laws in the world is going to stop someone hellbent on criminal behavior is asinine. You think flashmobs on Michigan Ave are because BK doesn't pay well enough? Jobs, education, ect won't solve anyone's problems if you don't start with the problem that is really plaguing the inner cities. The lack of a family structure. Kids having kids, kids born out of wedlock, ect. We point the fingers at the wrong things. Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson were quick to get into the limelight as it pertains to Sterling. Where are they when 18 people were murdered (most of them black) in the city of Chicago on a given weekend? Is it because the vast majority is black on black crime? Unfortunately the only ones who are going to fix the problem are the ones living in the communities that are stricken with the crime. It has to start at HOME FIRST. Offer someone a job for $15/hr working 8hrs a day in one hand and then in the other they can hang with their boys and sell weed/crack for a lot more than that with little effort. Someone has to be chirping in that kids ear about the right decisions to make, those people should be mom and dad. That is if someone needs someone telling them selling drugs is bad.

    This is to say nothing of the fact that anyone who tries have a dialogue about the REAL issue is either racist or an Uncle Tom.
    toober likes this.
    04-30-2014 01:40 PM
  4. GadgetGator's Avatar
    To think all the gun laws in the world is going to stop someone hellbent on criminal behavior is asinine.
    I never that I said that it would. However when you have easy access to weapons, you increase the likelihood that they will actually be used in a crime. That's just common sense.

    You think flashmobs on Michigan Ave are because BK doesn't pay well enough? Jobs, education, ect won't solve anyone's problems if you don't start with the problem that is really plaguing the inner cities. The lack of a family structure. Kids having kids, kids born out of wedlock, ect.
    That falls under the education point I was making. Education is more than just what you learn in school. It's also about what you learn socially.

    (Now how about addressing that whole *** marriage comment from the bundy thread.....still waiting. Really curious what you were trying to say.)
    04-30-2014 02:19 PM
  5. anon8126715's Avatar
    To think all the gun laws in the world is going to stop someone hellbent on criminal behavior is asinine. You think flashmobs on Michigan Ave are because BK doesn't pay well enough? Jobs, education, ect won't solve anyone's problems if you don't start with the problem that is really plaguing the inner cities. The lack of a family structure. Kids having kids, kids born out of wedlock, ect. We point the fingers at the wrong things. Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson were quick to get into the limelight as it pertains to Sterling. Where are they when 18 people were murdered (most of them black) in the city of Chicago on a given weekend? Is it because the vast majority is black on black crime? Unfortunately the only ones who are going to fix the problem are the ones living in the communities that are stricken with the crime. It has to start at HOME FIRST. Offer someone a job for $15/hr working 8hrs a day in one hand and then in the other they can hang with their boys and sell weed/crack for a lot more than that with little effort. Someone has to be chirping in that kids ear about the right decisions to make, those people should be mom and dad. That is if someone needs someone telling them selling drugs is bad.

    This is to say nothing of the fact that anyone who tries have a dialogue about the REAL issue is either racist or an Uncle Tom.
    I wouldn't call them a racist or an Uncle Tom, just someone that is so detached from someone else's reality that they think it's just a matter someone lifting themselves up from the bootstraps and getting to work. If they have no prospects for good living, if they work their fingers to the bone and still see no progress in their livelihood, how can you even pretend that it has to do with them not "teaching their kids right from wrong"? I know if I had to work crazy hours at my place of employment while being regarded as a sub-human by my employer and society, do you think I'm going to come home and give a damn about my children acting proper?

    I saw somewhere about how people think Paul Ryan is some sort of "great example" because he worked at McDonalds and thus with such "humble beginnings", he must be a "perfect example of hard work from humble beginnings". Sure it's easy for him to be recognized if he works hard, the path for certain members of our society is much easier than it is for others. To pretend it's not, that's called willful ignorance.
    04-30-2014 02:26 PM
  6. SteveISU's Avatar
    I never that I said that it would. However when you have easy access to weapons, you increase the likelihood that they will actually be used in a crime. That's just common sense.



    That falls under the education point I was making. Education is more than just what you learn in school. It's also about what you learn socially.

    (Now how about addressing that whole *** marriage comment from the bundy thread.....still waiting. Really curious what you were trying to say.)

    I had easy access to guns when I was growing up, why am I not in the penitentiary? My fathers idea of stowing away his rifles was putting them in the corner of his closet with a pillow case over them.

    The value of education is taught by the parents. Again, start with the root of the problem. 40% dropout rate in Chicago Public Schools, do you think it's because they don't like the brand of Algebra they're teaching? Bare in mind those Teachers are some of the highest paid in the state.

    [Inflammatory comments removed by moderator]
    04-30-2014 03:03 PM
  7. SteveISU's Avatar
    I wouldn't call them a racist or an Uncle Tom, just someone that is so detached from someone else's reality that they think it's just a matter someone lifting themselves up from the bootstraps and getting to work. If they have no prospects for good living, if they work their fingers to the bone and still see no progress in their livelihood, how can you even pretend that it has to do with them not "teaching their kids right from wrong"? I know if I had to work crazy hours at my place of employment while being regarded as a sub-human by my employer and society, do you think I'm going to come home and give a damn about my children acting proper?

    I saw somewhere about how people think Paul Ryan is some sort of "great example" because he worked at McDonalds and thus with such "humble beginnings", he must be a "perfect example of hard work from humble beginnings". Sure it's easy for him to be recognized if he works hard, the path for certain members of our society is much easier than it is for others. To pretend it's not, that's called willful ignorance.
    You might not, but that's the reality. If you are white and make any critical points about another races community, you will get pegged a racist by someone. Don Lemon has been pegged an uncle tom for telling people to pull their pants up. I think you need to look closer at the ones committing the crimes in the city of Chicago. They aren't married men working 15hrs a day at a tool and die shop and then joining a flash mob.

    I work my tail off, I don't know anyone who doesn't wish they made more or were worth more, does it stop me from going home to my kids and teaching them how to behave and act? NO!!!! Because I understand as a human being (regardless of my education or skin color) that when I bring a life into this world, this world is going to have to deal with my decision one way or another. It is in my child's best interest and societies for that matter, that I teach my kid how to act in a civilized society. Clearly you don't have that same mentality so you obviously wouldn't grasp that concept as evidence by your
    "do you think I'm going to come home and give a damn about my children acting proper?"
    So my solution to you if you think you've been slighted so to hell with everyone and you don't give a darn what your kids do is simple. Please don't breed!!!
    toober likes this.
    04-30-2014 03:17 PM
  8. anon8126715's Avatar
    You might not, but that's the reality. If you are white and make any critical points about another races community, you will get pegged a racist by someone. Don Lemon has been pegged an uncle tom for telling people to pull their pants up. I think you need to look closer at the ones committing the crimes in the city of Chicago. They aren't married men working 15hrs a day at a tool and die shop and then joining a flash mob.

    I work my tail off, I don't know anyone who doesn't wish they made more or were worth more, does it stop me from going home to my kids and teaching them how to behave and act? NO!!!! Because I understand as a human being (regardless of my education or skin color) that when I bring a life into this world, this world is going to have to deal with my decision one way or another. It is in my child's best interest and societies for that matter, that I teach my kid how to act in a civilized society. Clearly you don't have that same mentality so you obviously wouldn't grasp that concept as evidence by your So my solution to you if you think you've been slighted so to hell with everyone and you don't give a darn what your kids do is simple. Please don't breed!!!
    I suggest you find the lowest paying, least respectful job you can find, work there for a year, and see if coming home and disciplining your children is the first thing that comes to mind. Sure we have the luxury of not being paid the lowest to do the least respectful job, then who are we to judge? Bill Cosby is a good example, not EVERYONE in the hood is going to somehow land a sitcom in which they function like a family where the father is a doctor and the mother is a lawyer.

    I can't make you be empathetic to a group of people that you probably despise to begin with, but I can at least attempt to show you why you shouldn't judge them.
    GadgetGator likes this.
    04-30-2014 03:37 PM
  9. Aquila's Avatar
    Please keep in mind that, especially within the politics section, we want to keep not only the letter of the guidelines but the spirit of PUPPAH in mind and ensure that everyone is being treated with dignity and that our comments add value rather than insult or antagonize.

    As usual, please keep discussion productive and on topic. Personal attacks, insults, taking threads off topic and other disruptive posting behaviors are not acceptable. If you do not like a post, please behave like an adult and move on, or if you feel it violates the forum rules, please report it. At no point should members be calling each other out in posts. Thanks.
    palandri and Johnly like this.
    04-30-2014 05:34 PM
  10. SteveISU's Avatar
    I suggest you find the lowest paying, least respectful job you can find, work there for a year, and see if coming home and disciplining your children is the first thing that comes to mind. Sure we have the luxury of not being paid the lowest to do the least respectful job, then who are we to judge? Bill Cosby is a good example, not EVERYONE in the hood is going to somehow land a sitcom in which they function like a family where the father is a doctor and the mother is a lawyer.

    I can't make you be empathetic to a group of people that you probably despise to begin with, but I can at least attempt to show you why you shouldn't judge them.
    Guy I was an orderly in a hospital wiping peoples butts, does it get lower than that?

    Yes you're right I despise inner city people. Just call me a racist already and get it over with. Its clearly where you are going. You are right though, I have a hard time being sympathetic for anyone who has zero respect for human life. Open the Tribune and there's 10-20 people on a given weekend who don't in Chicago.

    Again, go look at the people who are creating all the crime in Chicago, 95% don't make up the group you are referring to. In fact I haven't a clue how you injected them in any of this?

    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
    04-30-2014 06:24 PM
  11. anon8126715's Avatar
    Guy I was an orderly in a hospital wiping peoples butts, does it get lower than that?

    Yes you're right I despise inner city people. Just call me a racist already and get it over with. Its clearly where you are going. You are right though, I have a hard time being empathetic for anyone who has zero respect for human life. Open the Tribune and there's 10-20 people on a given weekend who don't in Chicago.

    Again, go look at the people who are creating all the crime in Chicago, 95% don't make up the group you are referring to. In fact I haven't a clue how you injected them in any of this?

    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
    So you can't show empathy, but insist that they should value life? Have I demonstrated your disconnect yet? I don't insist that their actions are right or wrong, but I know lecturing them about "acceptable behavior" is not the answer.
    04-30-2014 06:33 PM
  12. SteveISU's Avatar
    So you can't show empathy, but insist that they should value life? Have I demonstrated your disconnect yet? I don't insist that their actions are right or wrong, but I know lecturing them about "acceptable behavior" is not the answer.
    You want me to be sensitive to the feelings of a gang member or a drug dealer and their situation? When they'd put you and me in the ground in a heartbeat and not give a squirt? I cant empathize with it because I've never been a gangbanger or drug dealer, which is what empathizing with them would suggest. I'm not sure you're being serious or you really don't know what is going on in the city of Chicago? I would guess the later given your series of posts in this thread.

    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
    04-30-2014 06:44 PM
  13. anon8126715's Avatar
    You want me to be sensitive to the feelings of a gang member or a drug dealer and their situation? When they'd put you and me in the ground in a heartbeat and not give a squirt? I cant empathize with it because I've never been a gangbanger or drug dealer, which is what empathizing with them would suggest. I'm not sure you're being serious or you really don't know what is going on in the city of Chicago? I would guess the later given your series of posts in this thread.

    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
    I actually live in a large city as well, and while our crime rate may not be as bad as yours (I actually don't see either city in the top 10 for 2013), its obvious to me that there is a socioeconomic element to crime. Failing to recognize the socioeconomic part and insisting that it's purely an upbringing and behavioral issue is like telling a cancer patient that they can pray away their cancer.
    GadgetGator likes this.
    04-30-2014 08:58 PM
  14. SteveISU's Avatar
    I actually live in a large city as well, and while our crime rate may not be as bad as yours (I actually don't see either city in the top 10 for 2013), its obvious to me that there is a socioeconomic element to crime. Failing to recognize the socioeconomic part and insisting that it's purely an upbringing and behavioral issue is like telling a cancer patient that they can pray away their cancer.

    No, it's akin to ignoring the fact that cigarette smoking causes cancer. You pray after the diagnosis, understanding what causes the cancer will prevent it. It's not that hard of a concept to grasp. 72% of these kids are born to unwed parents. These crimes in Chicago are being perpetrated by teens and kids in their 20's. Living in Seattle, for example, gives you no understand about what's going on in Chicago. As far as our crime stats, we know the mayor and Police superintendent have fudged the numbers. The reports are out there.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    04-30-2014 09:08 PM
  15. palandri's Avatar
    I actually live in a large city as well, and while our crime rate may not be as bad as yours (I actually don't see either city in the top 10 for 2013), its obvious to me that there is a socioeconomic element to crime. Failing to recognize the socioeconomic part and insisting that it's purely an upbringing and behavioral issue is like telling a cancer patient that they can pray away their cancer.
    What's being debated here now is basic Criminology 101. You have the Positivist vs the Classicalist. It basically a left vs right debate.

    The Positivist basically look at all the attributing factors to crime and lots of times they actually put it into a scientific formula like this, C=f(X1, X2, X3.....) Crime equals the function of the following variables, X1 = economics, X2 =broken family, X3 = educational level...etc...

    The Classicalist looks at crime as a person basically acting on their own free will. People basically measure the cost vs the benefits of each situation. It's real close to hedonism, people seek pleasure and avoid pain.

    These two hypotheses can be debated until everyone is blue in face. What we know for sure is, "certainly" (critical word) of punishment definitely changes behavior. Maybe that's where we should concentrate? If you knew for sure that if you cheated on your taxes that your would be caught and you would be punished, would you cheat on your taxes? If you knew for sure that if you shoplifted, that you would be caught and you would be punished, would you shoplift?
    04-30-2014 11:38 PM
  16. GadgetGator's Avatar
    These two hypotheses can be debated until everyone is blue in face. What we know for sure is, "certainly" (critical word) of punishment definitely changes behavior. Maybe that's where we should concentrate? If you knew for sure that if you cheated on your taxes that your would be caught and you would be punished, would you cheat on your taxes? If you knew for sure that if you shoplifted, that you would be caught and you would be punished, would you shoplift?
    But when some consider the punishment a better life than what they have now, is it really a punishment? No. It's not. How do you deal with that situation, which is what we got. Worse, the punishment system they get actually introduces them to other bad people so they can learn how to commit future crimes and make connections they might not have otherwise had. Rather than punishment it becomes a home and an educational system to them.
    palandri likes this.
    05-01-2014 06:09 PM
  17. palandri's Avatar
    But when some consider the punishment a better life than what they have now, is it really a punishment? No. It's not. How do you deal with that situation, which is what we got. Worse, the punishment system they get actually introduces them to other bad people so they can learn how to commit future crimes and make connections they might not have otherwise had. Rather than punishment it becomes a home and an educational system to them.
    Those are all valid points. I am sure there are a few people that see jail with three squares a day better than living on the street hungry. Many criminals do become better criminals in jail, learning from the hardcore criminals that have been in and out a dozen times. It's pretty easy to see that there's a cycle here we have to break.
    05-01-2014 06:32 PM
  18. anon8126715's Avatar
    But when some consider the punishment a better life than what they have now, is it really a punishment? No. It's not. How do you deal with that situation, which is what we got. Worse, the punishment system they get actually introduces them to other bad people so they can learn how to commit future crimes and make connections they might not have otherwise had. Rather than punishment it becomes a home and an educational system to them.
    That's the part that's sad, some people are better taken care of in prison than they are trying to make it in society. I'm sure some of our "friends" on the right would then try to make jail even more of a hardship, (which I can understand not wanting to furnish a jail cell with Cable TV and other amenities) but why not try to attack it on both sides, make jail less attractive, and freedom when they're out, more attractive?
    palandri and GadgetGator like this.
    05-01-2014 06:48 PM
  19. palandri's Avatar
    That's the part that's sad, some people are better taken care of in prison than they are trying to make it in society. I'm sure some of our "friends" on the right would then try to make jail even more of a hardship, (which I can understand not wanting to furnish a jail cell with Cable TV and other amenities) but why not try to attack it on both sides, make jail less attractive, and freedom when they're out, more attractive?
    Valid point, but that's hard to do without a "guaranteed right to work", not to mention the hardship that minimum wage causes.
    05-01-2014 06:58 PM
  20. anon8126715's Avatar
    Valid point, but that's hard to do without a "guaranteed right to work", not to mention the hardship that minimum wage causes.
    I think I remember some politician trying to change it from a minimum wage to a livable wage and tried to tie the wage to specific products/services essential for living modestly enough.

    What I do find funny is when I hear people that insist income inequality isn't a big deal talk to me about how they only buy used cars because even buying base model new cars is too expensive for them. Yet you have a whole class of people that will buy $50,000 and $60,000 vehicles on a whim and go out and buy their high school aged children cars that are better than what some of these people can afford working full time jobs.

    Even when I worked for General Motors ($80,000 a year while working 60-70 hour weeks) I only managed to buy a decent new car because of the employee discount that I'd receive.
    GadgetGator likes this.
    05-01-2014 07:14 PM
  21. SteveISU's Avatar
    I think I remember some politician trying to change it from a minimum wage to a livable wage and tried to tie the wage to specific products/services essential for living modestly enough.

    What I do find funny is when I hear people that insist income inequality isn't a big deal talk to me about how they only buy used cars because even buying base model new cars is too expensive for them. Yet you have a whole class of people that will buy $50,000 and $60,000 vehicles on a whim and go out and buy their high school aged children cars that are better than what some of these people can afford working full time jobs.

    Even when I worked for General Motors ($80,000 a year while working 60-70 hour weeks) I only managed to buy a decent new car because of the employee discount that I'd receive.

    Alright, lets skip of the entire fact that it starts with rebuilding the family structure. Lets focus on your argument about socioeconomic status and education. We are talking about Cook County, the bluest, most democratically controlled county in the entire US and has been for DECADES (since the 1930's FYI) In a state that is a democratic strong hold as well. Our Speaker of the House is the closest thing you'll see to a King in this country (Go look up Mike Madigan). We've tried all the bleeding heart liberal policies. The most restrictive gun laws in the nation, tax hikes up the wazoo, the city of Chicago and Cook county soak up the vast majority of General state aid for education despite a 60% graduation rate. Cook county is a liberal's dreamland yet here we are. Chicago doesn't have it's shortage of rich liberals, if it's so easy to simply raise minimum wage or throw money at it why haven't they? King Madigan could get just about any law passed he chooses. What you are seeing in the city of Chicago (poor education, crime, ect) falls 100% on the democrats footstep.
    05-02-2014 09:20 AM
  22. GadgetGator's Avatar
    Alright, lets skip of the entire fact that it starts with rebuilding the family structure. Lets focus on your argument about socioeconomic status and education. We are talking about Cook County, the bluest, most democratically controlled county in the entire US and has been for DECADES (since the 1930's FYI) In a state that is a democratic strong hold as well. Our Speaker of the House is the closest thing you'll see to a King in this country (Go look up Mike Madigan). We've tried all the bleeding heart liberal policies. The most restrictive gun laws in the nation, tax hikes up the wazoo, the city of Chicago and Cook county soak up the vast majority of General state aid for education despite a 60% graduation rate. Cook county is a liberal's dreamland yet here we are. Chicago doesn't have it's shortage of rich liberals, if it's so easy to simply raise minimum wage or throw money at it why haven't they? King Madigan could get just about any law passed he chooses. What you are seeing in the city of Chicago (poor education, crime, ect) falls 100% on the democrats footstep.
    Do you really think that red states are some sort of paradise under Republican leadership? And why do you keep bringing up gun laws? I explained to you already how they cannot work when adjacent states have less restrictions and people can just funnel them over state lines.
    05-02-2014 11:38 AM
  23. anon8126715's Avatar
    Alright, lets skip of the entire fact that it starts with rebuilding the family structure. Lets focus on your argument about socioeconomic status and education. We are talking about Cook County, the bluest, most democratically controlled county in the entire US and has been for DECADES (since the 1930's FYI) In a state that is a democratic strong hold as well. Our Speaker of the House is the closest thing you'll see to a King in this country (Go look up Mike Madigan). We've tried all the bleeding heart liberal policies. The most restrictive gun laws in the nation, tax hikes up the wazoo, the city of Chicago and Cook county soak up the vast majority of General state aid for education despite a 60% graduation rate. Cook county is a liberal's dreamland yet here we are. Chicago doesn't have it's shortage of rich liberals, if it's so easy to simply raise minimum wage or throw money at it why haven't they? King Madigan could get just about any law passed he chooses. What you are seeing in the city of Chicago (poor education, crime, ect) falls 100% on the democrats footstep.
    I'm not sure I understand this post. You start with trying to focus on socioeconomic conditions and then get into a rant about your local politician. Herein lies part of the problem. We insist that we're trying to be bipartisan but then we look back at failed policies and point and scream till we're blue in the face. I can't speak for your political leadership's past failures, and I actually don't believe in some of the left wing policies (telling someone they can't have a beverage above a certain size, telling families they can't have guns to protect themselves when criminals are armed to the teeth, etc) but I don't think the heart of this issue is just "Lets teach them how to raise their children".

    Do you know how many people in the inner cities have tried for the American Dream only to be in the same squalor after years of hard work? The opportunity for attaining the American Dream isn't the same for everyone. Some people aren't even given a place at the starting line. Look at public education. If you're a poor minority, I have news for you, you're not going to get a quality education. If you're a white youth in an affluent area, you're going to get a good education. The only reason I can see not wanting to give someone an opportunity is because some people feel that they may surpass expectations, which is kind of sad. I say let the creme rise to the top regardless of background or skin color. We do ourselves a disservice as a society when we let skin color, gender, or race play a role in deciding who succeeds and who doesn't.
    GadgetGator likes this.
    05-02-2014 12:13 PM
  24. machzk's Avatar
    I hope this is not the beginning of the end for Android Central. Political discussions have killed many other forums I have known.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
    05-02-2014 12:15 PM
  25. SteveISU's Avatar
    Do you really think that red states are some sort of paradise under Republican leadership? And why do you keep bringing up gun laws? I explained to you already how they cannot work when adjacent states have less restrictions and people can just funnel them over state lines.

    And as I've already stated, all the gun laws in the world short of banning all firearms won't stop someone who: 1. Could care less about the rule of law. 2. Has no issue with putting you 6ft under. So your explanation falls flat. It falls flat because you can put up all the gun laws in every surrounding state, all you need is one guy who can pass a background check to procure the gun (he's gonna get paid for his services). Report the gun stolen, file down the serial number, and wa-la! Which is exactly what is happening. Come up with a gun law to stop that?

    You really think a Gangster Disciple stopped for a moment on the street and said, "You know what, I wanna get a gun and pop that dude but I don't have my FOID card". The most restrictive gun laws in the state were in the City of Chicago/Cook County, not state wide. There were no gun shops within City limits, there were no ranges within city limits. I even think Daley banned water guns because he didn't want the little ones to get an itchy trigger fingers (sarcasm).
    05-02-2014 12:32 PM
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