06-12-2014 04:53 PM
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  1. msndrstood's Avatar
    Should the employees fight to remove the clause, or should they simply look for a new job?
    It depends if there are enough to make a difference. For me, I'd be looking somewhere else, I couldn't work in that environment.

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    06-03-2014 03:26 PM
  2. anon8126715's Avatar
    Should the employees fight to remove the clause, or should they simply look for a new job?

    If I were running an educational institution, I'd want the best as long as their lifestyle outside of work didn't inhibit the children's education. Once the children stop benefiting from the teacher's instructions via outside distractions or quality of the teacher's instruction, then at that point the teacher will need to be removed.

    It should first and foremost be about the children. Everything else seems inconsequential to me, but then again I don't think believe that an employer should have a right to mandate a person's personal lifestyle unless it inhibits what takes place at the workplace. For instance, if a teacher is an adult film star on the side and the students find out, that would definitely undermine that teacher's ability to teach effectively.
    06-03-2014 03:49 PM
  3. Scott7217's Avatar
    It should first and foremost be about the children. Everything else seems inconsequential to me, but then again I don't think believe that an employer should have a right to mandate a person's personal lifestyle unless it inhibits what takes place at the workplace. For instance, if a teacher is an adult film star on the side and the students find out, that would definitely undermine that teacher's ability to teach effectively.
    That's a good point. I suppose in most cases, being an adult film star would fall under the category of sexual activity out of wedlock. Thus, the Cincinnati Archdiocese has a legitimate case to fire the employee on the grounds that the activity undermines the teacher's ability to teach effectively.
    06-03-2014 04:10 PM
  4. anon8126715's Avatar
    That's a good point. I suppose in most cases, being an adult film star would fall under the category of sexual activity out of wedlock. Thus, the Cincinnati Archdiocese has a legitimate case to fire the employee on the grounds that the activity undermines the teacher's ability to teach effectively.
    I used pornography as an example because I knew that would be the first straw-man argument that someone would use, and I actually agree, that type of supplemental income would be a bigger distraction in the classroom, if anything. But, lets look at your example of just simple out of wedlock sex. If it's between 2 consenting adults and done in the privacy of one's own home, how would that affect the students negatively?
    06-03-2014 09:54 PM
  5. Scott7217's Avatar
    But, lets look at your example of just simple out of wedlock sex. If it's between 2 consenting adults and done in the privacy of one's own home, how would that affect the students negatively?
    If the students see adults having sex out of wedlock, then they may decide to have sex out of wedlock. According to Catholic teachings, that would be a sin. It would make sense for a Catholic school to do everything in its power to prevent its students from engaging in sinful activity.

    Other people may disagree on characterizing premarital sex as a sinful act. In such a case, they are free to send their children elsewhere for an education.
    06-03-2014 11:35 PM
  6. anon8126715's Avatar
    If the students see adults having sex out of wedlock, then they may decide to have sex out of wedlock. According to Catholic teachings, that would be a sin. It would make sense for a Catholic school to do everything in its power to prevent its students from engaging in sinful activity.

    Other people may disagree on characterizing premarital sex as a sinful act. In such a case, they are free to send their children elsewhere for an education.
    If a student is seeing a teacher have sex with someone else in the privacy of their own home then the issue is more about how the student violated the teacher's privacy, not what the teacher was doing in the privacy of their own home.
    06-04-2014 03:46 AM
  7. Scott7217's Avatar
    If a student is seeing a teacher have sex with someone else in the privacy of their own home then the issue is more about how the student violated the teacher's privacy, not what the teacher was doing in the privacy of their own home.
    Then it makes sense to punish both the student and the teacher. In the end, though, the teacher is still out of a job.
    06-04-2014 04:48 AM
  8. anon8126715's Avatar
    Then it makes sense to punish both the student and the teacher. In the end, though, the teacher is still out of a job.
    I still don't think an employee should be fired for something they do off of company time. Do we then start firing teachers who go to Vegas or play Bingo on their own time? Gambling is a sin is it not? Where do we then draw the line? IMO we should draw the line back at school because it's no one's business what takes place outside of company hours, unless, as I stated earlier, it inhibits that person's ability at work.

    It's all about imposing control and how much of our freedoms we're willing to let an entity rob from us. Drug use, rampant sex, alcohol use, and other vices, I am not advocating for those items. What I'm advocating for is freedom. I think that's one point that generally gets lost by the right wing when they try to push their religious agenda.
    06-04-2014 05:21 AM
  9. Scott7217's Avatar
    What I'm advocating for is freedom. I think that's one point that generally gets lost by the right wing when they try to push their religious agenda.
    No one is forcing anyone to work at a Catholic school. If the teachers don't like the policy, they are free to work someplace else that will appreciate their talents more.

    Furthermore, I think the revised contract is a symptom of a bigger problem. Catholic schools are having problems finding good teachers who are Catholic or compatible with Catholic beliefs. The schools then must hire non-Catholic teachers because they have no choice.
    06-04-2014 02:37 PM
  10. anon8126715's Avatar
    No one is forcing anyone to work at a Catholic school. If the teachers don't like the policy, they are free to work someplace else that will appreciate their talents more.

    Furthermore, I think the revised contract is a symptom of a bigger problem. Catholic schools are having problems finding good teachers who are Catholic or compatible with Catholic beliefs. The schools then must hire non-Catholic teachers because they have no choice.
    You do know why they have that problem right? With all the information that's out there, it's hard to be an instrument of that information and insist that the world is only a few thousand years old.
    06-04-2014 02:47 PM
  11. Scott7217's Avatar
    You do know why they have that problem right? With all the information that's out there, it's hard to be an instrument of that information and insist that the world is only a few thousand years old.
    Exactly. I even hear enrollment is dropping to a point where they have to close down some Catholic schools.

    On a side note, I think Catholic schools teach evolution as part of their science curriculum. I also heard the Jesuits (a Catholic group) have members who are actual scientists.

    If I had to guess which denomination is growing, I would say it's the Mormon faith.
    06-04-2014 03:00 PM
  12. anon8126715's Avatar
    Exactly. I even hear enrollment is dropping to a point where they have to close down some Catholic schools.

    On a side note, I think Catholic schools teach evolution as part of their science curriculum. I also heard the Jesuits (a Catholic group) have members who are actual scientists.

    If I had to guess which denomination is growing, I would say it's the Mormon faith.
    I can't remember where I read it, but I remember seeing somewhere that atheists/agnostics generally have a higher IQ than their religious counterparts. I don't read anything into it other than being bound by a doctrine that has a history of keeping their followers faithful by inhibiting free thinking has its consequences.
    06-04-2014 03:22 PM
  13. Scott7217's Avatar
    I can't remember where I read it, but I remember seeing somewhere that atheists/agnostics generally have a higher IQ than their religious counterparts. I don't read anything into it other than being bound by a doctrine that has a history of keeping their followers faithful by inhibiting free thinking has its consequences.
    Atheists and agnostics are free to open their own schools.

    I'm sure most Catholics have access to the internet and other sources of information. They are free to think for themselves, and, if necessary, they can leave to pursue a different faith if they want.
    06-04-2014 05:46 PM
  14. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    Exactly. I even hear enrollment is dropping to a point where they have to close down some Catholic schools.

    On a side note, I think Catholic schools teach evolution as part of their science curriculum. I also heard the Jesuits (a Catholic group) have members who are actual scientists.

    If I had to guess which denomination is growing, I would say it's the Mormon faith.
    They still have to follow the State mandated curriculum in order to get State funding. If they are completely independent and don't get any state funding than I'm not sure if they are still required to follow the state curriculum. Would be curious to know, but I don't have to research it.
    06-05-2014 10:47 AM
  15. anon8126715's Avatar
    Atheists and agnostics are free to open their own schools.

    I'm sure most Catholics have access to the internet and other sources of information. They are free to think for themselves, and, if necessary, they can leave to pursue a different faith if they want.
    Here's what I'd like to see, an agnostic/atheist school with a teacher that is a practicing catholic get fired. I bet Fox News and other right wing media would tear into that story like Tiny Tim on a Christmas Ham.
    06-05-2014 12:27 PM
  16. Scott7217's Avatar
    Here's what I'd like to see, an agnostic/atheist school with a teacher that is a practicing catholic get fired.
    So, if a Catholic school could fire teachers for having sex outside of wedlock, what would an atheist/agnostic school do?
    06-05-2014 03:12 PM
  17. anon8126715's Avatar
    So, if a Catholic school could fire teachers for having sex outside of wedlock, what would an atheist/agnostic school do?
    "Sorry Mrs. Brown, but it's come to our attention that you believe that someone built a big ship and carried 2 of each kind of animal from the planet on a big boat. I'm afraid we're going to have to let you go"......
    msndrstood likes this.
    06-05-2014 03:43 PM
  18. Scott7217's Avatar
    "Sorry Mrs. Brown, but it's come to our attention that you believe that someone built a big ship and carried 2 of each kind of animal from the planet on a big boat. I'm afraid we're going to have to let you go"......
    Does belief in Noah's Ark conflict with atheism or agnosticism? Should an atheist/agnostic school allow that belief to influence its students?
    06-05-2014 04:30 PM
  19. msndrstood's Avatar
    I would think an atheist school would be science based so therefore if there were any mention of Noah it would probably fall under the English curriculum as Historical Fiction. An agnostic school would mention it under a Philosophy course, maybe. More likely, Ancient Mythology. ๐Ÿ˜‘

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    06-05-2014 09:32 PM
  20. oz123's Avatar

    On a side note, I think Catholic schools teach evolution as part of their science curriculum. I also heard the Jesuits (a Catholic group) have members who are actual scientists.
    I think people are erroneously attributing fundamentalist ideas to catholics on this topic.

    Catholic Church and evolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    06-05-2014 10:22 PM
  21. anon8126715's Avatar
    Does belief in Noah's Ark conflict with atheism or agnosticism? Should an atheist/agnostic school allow that belief to influence its students?
    See below. And then we won't get into how some animals are predators of other animals and yet somehow they had a food supply that satiated ALL species. Who knows, maybe they thought the Dinosaurs were a bit too heavy for the boat, killed them all, and survived off dinosaur meat for the journey....


    I would think an atheist school would be science based so therefore if there were any mention of Noah it would probably fall under the English curriculum as Historical Fiction. An agnostic school would mention it under a Philosophy course, maybe. More likely, Ancient Mythology.

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    06-06-2014 06:56 AM
  22. Scott7217's Avatar
    I would think an atheist school would be science based so therefore if there were any mention of Noah it would probably fall under the English curriculum as Historical Fiction. An agnostic school would mention it under a Philosophy course, maybe. More likely, Ancient Mythology. ๐Ÿ˜‘
    However, the story of Noah in this discussion was not framed as part of a curriculum. It was presented as a teacher's personal belief, and the school used that as justification to fire her (in this hypothetical scenario).

    Would you have fired the teacher? If not, what would you do instead?
    06-06-2014 08:44 AM
  23. msndrstood's Avatar
    However, the story of Noah in this discussion was not framed as part of a curriculum. It was presented as a teacher's personal belief, and the school used that as justification to fire her (in this hypothetical scenario).

    Would you have fired the teacher? If not, what would you do instead?
    I would have made her aware that personal beliefs don't belong in the classroom. If it happens again, I would terminate her or place her in a non teaching position, if possible. She's entitled to her beliefs but not to voice them in the classroom setting when the school prohibits such discussion.

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    06-06-2014 09:01 AM
  24. Scott7217's Avatar
    I would have made her aware that personal beliefs don't belong in the classroom. If it happens again, I would terminate her or place her in a non teaching position, if possible. She's entitled to her beliefs but not to voice them in the classroom setting when the school prohibits such discussion.
    Why not leave the teacher alone? What is the danger?
    06-06-2014 09:21 AM
  25. msndrstood's Avatar
    Why not leave the teacher alone? What is the danger?
    Because it's her beliefs, I don't want a teacher pushing their beliefs on religious subjects in a public school. I think I'm being fair, in a parochial school, she would be fired immediately for voicing a dissenting belief from the dogma of the church.

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    06-06-2014 09:25 AM
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