06-12-2014 04:53 PM
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  1. anon8126715's Avatar
    However, the story of Noah in this discussion was not framed as part of a curriculum. It was presented as a teacher's personal belief, and the school used that as justification to fire her (in this hypothetical scenario).

    Would you have fired the teacher? If not, what would you do instead?
    I would have made her aware that personal beliefs don't belong in the classroom. If it happens again, I would terminate her or place her in a non teaching position, if possible. She's entitled to her beliefs but not to voice them in the classroom setting when the school prohibits such discussion.

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    Why not leave the teacher alone? What is the danger?

    My original post (Mrs Brown post) was mostly in jest, but would be a funny scenario, to say the least. Below would be my more serious way of approaching it.

    I would have a discussion with the teacher as well, but I would let her know that she's free to talk about her personal beliefs as long as it's relevant to the material she's teaching. I would also advise her that a classroom is a vessel for expression of thought and that she in no way shape or form should try to censor any students that disagree with her views.

    And then after that, I'd have her do some research on my behalf. I'd have her research the volume of ALL land animals on this earth, then I'd have her research the largest boat ever built, and if she's a science teacher, I'd have her try to reconcile her beliefs to me.
    06-06-2014 09:33 AM
  2. Scott7217's Avatar
    Because it's her beliefs, I don't want a teacher pushing their beliefs on religious subjects in a public school. I think I'm being fair, in a parochial school, she would be fired immediately for voicing a dissenting belief from the dogma of the church.
    To be clear, we are not necessarily talking about a public school. We are merely talking about an atheist/agnostic school. It could be a private school, for example.

    Going back to the teacher, how is she harming the students with her beliefs?
    06-06-2014 09:42 AM
  3. msndrstood's Avatar
    To be clear, we are not necessarily talking about a public school. We are merely talking about an atheist/agnostic school. It could be a private school, for example.

    Going back to the teacher, how is she harming the students with her beliefs?
    I'll have to finish this later, I have to get back to homeschooling my 15 year old grand daughter and warping her tender mind, lol.
    But seriously, I'll be back later after homeschooling.

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    Scott7217 likes this.
    06-06-2014 09:47 AM
  4. Aquila's Avatar
    To be clear, we are not necessarily talking about a public school. We are merely talking about an atheist/agnostic school. It could be a private school, for example.

    Going back to the teacher, how is she harming the students with her beliefs?
    She's in a position of trust where her words and lessons carry the context of being truth. We could question teachers nonstop but most children don't and it'd be very unwelcome in most classrooms where they use their position of authority rather than evidence and reason to prove their claims. With adult students the more ideas the better... But the format for children in school focuses mostly on learning facts and concepts rather than reasoning things out and a teacher passing their personal beliefs off as fact will put the inaccurate information in the child's mind in the same category as the rest of the curriculum.

    Teaching mythology is fine but we don't tell children that Zeus is actually sending the lightning... we explain that people used to believe it before they understood what was actually happening. Teaching children that myths take the same intellectual priority as knowledge is definitely harmful. If a teacher cannot make that connection and restrain themselves to focus on education, then they're in the wrong profession and should consider preaching.

    Nexus through spacetime
    msndrstood and Scott7217 like this.
    06-06-2014 09:56 AM
  5. Scott7217's Avatar
    I would also advise her that a classroom is a vessel for expression of thought and that she in no way shape or form should try to censor any students that disagree with her views.
    What if the students embrace what the teacher is saying to a point where they believe it as fact? Noah built the Ark to survive the Great Flood because God wanted to destroy the evil on earth at the time. What if the students believe this completely? Remember, we are talking about an atheist/agnostic school.
    06-06-2014 10:09 AM
  6. Scott7217's Avatar
    If a teacher cannot make that connection and restrain themselves to focus on education, then they're in the wrong profession and should consider preaching.
    Who decides if the teacher is in the wrong profession? Is it the school? How about the parents?
    06-06-2014 10:17 AM
  7. anon8126715's Avatar
    What if the students embrace what the teacher is saying to a point where they believe it as fact? Noah built the Ark to survive the Great Flood because God wanted to destroy the evil on earth at the time. What if the students believe this completely? Remember, we are talking about an atheist/agnostic school.
    It would depend on the age of the students in question. As pointed out by Darth, most institutions for younger aged students are teaching in one direction (meaning there's generally no room for discussion with the children). That being said, I would question if the teacher is in the right environment based on her belief and the subject she's teaching. For instance, if she's teaching about history and delivers this fable as part of history, then I would have to question her being at the school.

    To me it would come down to what I believe is right for the child. Many of the fables in the Bible are just that, fables, thus teaching something as fact, IMO that would be irresponsible on the teacher's part and thus I'd have to ask her to remove herself.
    06-06-2014 10:33 AM
  8. SteveISU's Avatar
    I still don't think an employee should be fired for something they do off of company time. Do we then start firing teachers who go to Vegas or play Bingo on their own time? Gambling is a sin is it not? Where do we then draw the line? IMO we should draw the line back at school because it's no one's business what takes place outside of company hours, unless, as I stated earlier, it inhibits that person's ability at work.

    It's all about imposing control and how much of our freedoms we're willing to let an entity rob from us. Drug use, rampant sex, alcohol use, and other vices, I am not advocating for those items. What I'm advocating for is freedom. I think that's one point that generally gets lost by the right wing when they try to push their religious agenda.
    We live in a society now where everyone has a camera and video recorder with them at all times (cell phone). We have a culture now where everyone finds it necessary to post images of themselves doing the most idiotic things all over facebook, twitter, instagram, ect. Everyone wants a "viral video" on you tube. Times were different when you would do all of those things you listed discretely. We live in a society today that is the farthest from discretion. As a school administrator it would be very difficult to keep a teacher who has pictures posted online for parents and students to see of her/him swinging around a brass pole naked or sucking on a 2ft steamroller at a Phish concert. If you want to keep your private life just that, stop posting crap online and making it public.

    It doesn't just pertain to teachers though, businesses check prospective applicants facebook and twitter feeds all the time. Hell we do it here.
    06-06-2014 11:25 AM
  9. Scott7217's Avatar
    To me it would come down to what I believe is right for the child. Many of the fables in the Bible are just that, fables, thus teaching something as fact, IMO that would be irresponsible on the teacher's part and thus I'd have to ask her to remove herself.
    The teacher believes it is right. Who has authority over the teacher on what is right to teach to the children?
    06-06-2014 02:34 PM
  10. msndrstood's Avatar
    The teacher believes it is right. Who has authority over the teacher on what is right to teach to the children?
    It doesn't matter what she thinks is right. You don't insert your beliefs into a school curriculum. This is all a moot point. A "Christian" would never teach in an atheist school in the first place.

    And btw, I'm homeschooling my 15 year old grand daughter because of the bullying she received at a public school, not for religious reasons.

    In case there was any doubt. 😉

    Sent via The Big, Bad, Beautiful Note 3
    06-06-2014 05:26 PM
  11. toober's Avatar
    It doesn't matter what she thinks is right. You don't insert your beliefs into a school curriculum. This is all a moot point. A "Christian" would never teach in an atheist school in the first place.
    Getting away from the question of religion, what if the teacher is sharing his/her personal views on other subjects, such as politics? It seems easy to decipher right from wrong if a teacher is spreading their religious views, but may muddy the waters quite a bit if they insert their personal views of historical or current events.
    Scott7217 likes this.
    06-06-2014 05:58 PM
  12. anon8126715's Avatar
    The teacher believes it is right. Who has authority over the teacher on what is right to teach to the children?
    Schools tend to have curriculum that the teacher has agreed to teach. If it goes against the school's preset curriculum, then generally a school dismisses that teacher.
    06-06-2014 09:18 PM
  13. Scott7217's Avatar
    It doesn't matter what she thinks is right. You don't insert your beliefs into a school curriculum.
    What about the time outside of the classroom, on the teacher's own personal time? What if the students find out about the teacher's religious beliefs outside of school? For example, maybe the teacher attends a religious rally in public, and the students see her on TV.

    What if the students decide to emulate her? You may get to a point where some of the students stop following atheism/agnosticism. In some cases, a few students may even decide to join a religion.

    The parents may see what their children are doing, and they may call the school administration to complain. They didn't send their children to join a religion. They sent their kids to get a good education based on atheist/agnostic principles. The parents may threaten to pull their kids out of school unless the administration deals with the teacher.
    06-06-2014 10:28 PM
  14. palandri's Avatar
    ...They sent their kids to get a good education based on atheist/agnostic principles... .
    Education based on science, that's an interesting idea. Maybe thunder really isn't the angels bowling?
    msndrstood likes this.
    06-06-2014 11:43 PM
  15. anon8126715's Avatar
    What about the time outside of the classroom, on the teacher's own personal time? What if the students find out about the teacher's religious beliefs outside of school? For example, maybe the teacher attends a religious rally in public, and the students see her on TV.

    What if the students decide to emulate her? You may get to a point where some of the students stop following atheism/agnosticism. In some cases, a few students may even decide to join a religion.

    The parents may see what their children are doing, and they may call the school administration to complain. They didn't send their children to join a religion. They sent their kids to get a good education based on atheist/agnostic principles. The parents may threaten to pull their kids out of school unless the administration deals with the teacher.
    If she was swinging scantly clad from a pole trying to pass religious fable as fact, yeah I can see where the parents might be a little disturbed....

    Education based on science, that's an interesting idea. Maybe thunder really isn't the angels bowling?
    Oh c'mon now you're just being silly man!
    palandri likes this.
    06-07-2014 07:53 AM
  16. Scott7217's Avatar
    If she was swinging scantly clad from a pole trying to pass religious fable as fact, yeah I can see where the parents might be a little disturbed....
    So, you can understand why the school administration would fire the teacher for her behavior outside of the classroom, right?
    06-07-2014 08:31 AM
  17. anon8126715's Avatar
    So, you can understand why the school administration would fire the teacher for her behavior outside of the classroom, right?
    I think you missed my sarcasm, but that's ok. It's not taught at every educational institution.
    06-07-2014 08:43 AM
  18. Scott7217's Avatar
    I think you missed my sarcasm, but that's ok. It's not taught at every educational institution.
    I did notice the sarcasm. It was a nice touch.

    At least you acknowledged that the parents would be disturbed by the teacher's behavior. That gives the possibility that the administration may have to fire the teacher due to pressure from the parents.
    06-07-2014 09:00 AM
  19. anon8126715's Avatar
    I did notice the sarcasm. It was a nice touch.

    At least you acknowledged that the parents would be disturbed by the teacher's behavior. That gives the possibility that the administration may have to fire the teacher due to pressure from the parents.
    The problem I'd have with the scenario is the woman combining stripper life with preaching the word life....

    But, yes it would be difficult if a teacher moonlighted as an entertainer in an adult oriented business that might expose her to some of her work as a teacher, although I can imagine EVERY father making full effort to attend PTA meetings (for the kids' sake I mean). I still think that we need to make a distinction with this type of work and EVERY time of work. One can draw an effective line in the sand. If an employer insists that an employee project the company's image and values 24/7, then I think it only be fair that the employer be required to compensate that employee 24/7. If an employer does not think that the image projected by the employee is of any consequence then they need only compensate the employee for hours on the clock. I find it a symptom of our corpotocracy that we allow business to dictate how we behave in our personal life when we're off the clock.
    06-07-2014 09:19 AM
  20. Scott7217's Avatar
    I find it a symptom of our corpotocracy that we allow business to dictate how we behave in our personal life when we're off the clock.
    The teacher's religious activity on her personal time could affect the students to a point where they start believing in religion as well. The parents would notice this, and they would not be happy. The parents may threaten to put their kids in a different school unless the administration fires the teacher.

    So, either the school fires the teacher, or it loses students. Given those choices, the school will probably fire the teacher.
    06-09-2014 05:37 PM
  21. anon8126715's Avatar
    The teacher's religious activity on her personal time could affect the students to a point where they start believing in religion as well. The parents would notice this, and they would not be happy. The parents may threaten to put their kids in a different school unless the administration fires the teacher.

    So, either the school fires the teacher, or it loses students. Given those choices, the school will probably fire the teacher.
    Or, the parent could have a MORE active role in their child's life and stop trying to pawn off their responsibilities onto someone that doesn't get paid to raise someone else's child....just a thought.
    06-09-2014 06:33 PM
  22. Scott7217's Avatar
    Or, the parent could have a MORE active role in their child's life and stop trying to pawn off their responsibilities onto someone that doesn't get paid to raise someone else's child....just a thought.
    Parents who don't have an active role in their children's lives won't care what the teacher does, inside or outside of the classroom. Only the active parents will care. They're the ones who are likely to call the administration to fire the teacher.
    06-10-2014 03:18 PM
  23. anon8126715's Avatar
    Parents who don't have an active role in their children's lives won't care what the teacher does, inside or outside of the classroom. Only the active parents will care. They're the ones who are likely to call the administration to fire the teacher.
    It's been my experience that some parents will complain about anything as long as it means that they don't have to play a more active role in their child's lives. I can empathize with them though, sometimes when you get home from a busy day at work, you just want to unwind and relax.
    06-10-2014 07:17 PM
  24. Scott7217's Avatar
    It's been my experience that some parents will complain about anything as long as it means that they don't have to play a more active role in their child's lives.
    Not all parents are the same, though. Some parents do play an active role in their children's lives. Maybe you simply haven't met parents like that.
    06-10-2014 07:27 PM
  25. anon8126715's Avatar
    Not all parents are the same, though. Some parents do play an active role in their children's lives. Maybe you simply haven't met parents like that.
    Not all, but a higher majority than there used to be. Granted, as I stated the average worker is being worked to the bone, so I can understand coming home too tired to deal with the headaches of raising a child.
    palandri and msndrstood like this.
    06-10-2014 07:30 PM
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