05-16-2014 11:04 AM
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  1. SteveISU's Avatar
    So if we deny them a driver's license, then guess what, they won't bother to get insurance. But that's not going to stop them from driving. And then when they get into an accident with you (My mother had this happen to her), your insurance company or you will have to cover the cost. Trust me, when my mother told me what happened, the first thing I wanted to do was get the illegal woman that hit her parked car deported.

    The assumption here is getting a DL means they will maintain the proper liability coverage, not just pay the 6 mo premium to get the insurance card to show the DMV then let the policy lapse. I know for a fact that play happens more than you'd care to believe.
    05-15-2014 11:48 AM
  2. NoYankees44's Avatar
    Let me throw a hypothetical situation at you. Let's say my wife came over from France on a visa to teach French at the University of Chicago. Then she falls in love with a guy (me) and wants to stay in the states and become an American citizen. She follows all the legal procedures for citizenship, but the state department tells her she has to denounce her French citizenship and she refuses. Now her visa is expired and I am harboring an illegal alien, should we both be thrown in a federal prison?

    Later she finds out through the French Embassy that even if she denouces her French citizenship to the state department, France would allow her to have dual citizenship. Should the French Ambassador be thrown in a federal prison?
    Be thrown in prison? No. Deported and fined? Maybe.

    I do not think we have any power over an ambassador or what the French government allows their citizens to do.

    All of these policies need to be reevaluated in reform. Until that reform happens, we cannot act like the laws do not exist. Every immigrant I have ever known has had ICE breathing down their necks throughout the entire process. I have a hard time seeing someone that is in the system legally at one point could just be forgot.
    05-15-2014 12:06 PM
  3. anon8126715's Avatar
    The assumption here is getting a DL means they will maintain the proper liability coverage, not just pay the 6 mo premium to get the insurance card to show the DMV then let the policy lapse. I know for a fact that play happens more than you'd care to believe.
    Well getting liability insurance does mean more of a paper trail that would expose their illegal status, so I can see that scenario playing out, and then having people that won't care either way. But I would imagine if they are ok with getting their driver's license with an illegal status, then hopefully they are trying to play by the rules when they can, which would include getting at least liability insurance.
    05-15-2014 12:08 PM
  4. A895's Avatar
    I was always pro illegal immigrants because without a doubt they were roaming the land before us (Alamo anyone?). Its just the fact that over the years and how our country created it's own identity, those in other countries (including Mexico) saw that people can have the potential to do so much in this country.

    If they are here already let them be citizens, all the "they take jobs!" BS is stupid because you and I both know you wouldn't work there so who's going to work it? I rather let the people who know the value if hard work take it than try to save it for somebody (American) that might not ever even try to take it.

    We all are immigrants and that's what makes this country so great, that and this is the land of the hotdog, pizza, burger and fries. I want a hotdog now.

    Sent from my XT907 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    05-15-2014 12:14 PM
  5. SteveISU's Avatar
    I was always pro illegal immigrants because without a doubt they were roaming the land before us (Alamo anyone?). Its just the fact that over the years and how our country created it's own identity, those in other countries (including Mexico) saw that people can have the potential to do so much in this country.

    If they are here already let them be citizens, all the "they take jobs!" BS is stupid because you and I both know you wouldn't work there so who's going to work it? I rather let the people who know the value if hard work take it than try to save it for somebody (American) that might not ever even try to take it.

    We all are immigrants and that's what makes this country so great, that and this is the land of the hotdog, pizza, burger and fries. I want a hotdog now.

    Sent from my XT907 using Mobile Nations mobile app

    I agree we can't kick 11 million people out, but I wouldn't reward them with citizenship. I would make them go through the work of become legal permanent residents. Start handing out citizenship to everyone who jumps the line and break our laws and it's gonna turn into a free for all.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Well getting liability insurance does mean more of a paper trail that would expose their illegal status, so I can see that scenario playing out, and then having people that won't care either way. But I would imagine if they are ok with getting their driver's license with an illegal status, then hopefully they are trying to play by the rules when they can, which would include getting at least liability insurance.
    Wishful thinking.
    05-15-2014 12:18 PM
  6. toober's Avatar
    If they are here already let them be citizens, all the "they take jobs!" BS is stupid because you and I both know you wouldn't work there so who's going to work it? I rather let the people who know the value if hard work take it than try to save it for somebody (American) that might not ever even try to take it.
    I might take one of those jobs if I didn't know the government would pay me more to sit on my **** and collect a check. We honestly do not know what jobs Americans would or wouldn't do because we pay them more to stay at home and do nothing. If you let someone get hungry enough, I think you'd see him out there picking fruit and scrubbing toilets. What do you think all the illegals will do once they have citizenship and qualify for all the government programs? Do you think they will still pick your fruit and scrub your toilets for substandard wages, or will they start asking for their slice of that government pie?
    05-15-2014 02:50 PM
  7. A895's Avatar
    I might take one of those jobs if I didn't know the government would pay me more to sit on my **** and collect a check. We honestly do not know what jobs Americans would or wouldn't do because we pay them more to stay at home and do nothing. If you let someone get hungry enough, I think you'd see him out there picking fruit and scrubbing toilets. What do you think all the illegals will do once they have citizenship and qualify for all the government programs? Do you think they will still pick your fruit and scrub your toilets for substandard wages, or will they start asking for their slice of that government pie?
    I don't care what they do next. But their current treatment now needs attention. All people like hoy can think about is welfare, welfare, welfare, there are more problems than welfare. Immigration is the topic here.

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    05-15-2014 03:42 PM
  8. toober's Avatar
    I don't care what they do next. But their current treatment now needs attention. All people like hoy can think about is welfare, welfare, welfare, there are more problems than welfare. Immigration is the topic here.

    Sent from my XT907 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    You cannot just think about illegal immigration and ignore the effects it has. You have to look at what having 11 million illegals does to our economy as a whole. You have to consider what happens to the price of fruits and vegetables if we suddenly have to double the wages of the people that pick them. Will there still be landscaping companies if the cost of labor suddenly spikes? What happens to the price of chicken or pork when there's nobody willing to process them at the price they are now? Can you survive if the prices at the supermarket double?

    You say you don't care what they do next, but you will.
    05-15-2014 04:35 PM
  9. Aquila's Avatar
    You cannot just think about illegal immigration and ignore the effects it has. You have to look at what having 11 million illegals does to our economy as a whole.
    That's about a 3% increase in our country if citizens, a 0% increase in actual residents and even if their wages quadruple, that's going to be less than a 1% increase to groceries for the average family.

    I get your point but they're already in the population and the financial impact is far less than a similar application of modified weighted average wages for say, the minimum wage crowd.

    All that said... Inconvenience, especially if it is merely financial, is no excuse to not do the right thing. We don't know what the right thing is, but it's surely not doing nothing and continued exploitation for personal gain.

    XTNiT-1060 through spacetime.
    05-15-2014 04:53 PM
  10. toober's Avatar
    I agree that something must be done. I do not think that blanket amnesty is the answer. Once we legalize all the people already here, what do we do with the ones that come in the future? Aren't we at that point just telling the world that we have an open border policy and will welcome anyone that wants to be here?
    05-15-2014 05:11 PM
  11. Aquila's Avatar
    I agree that something must be done. I do not think that blanket amnesty is the answer. Once we legalize all the people already here, what do we do with the ones that come in the future? Aren't we at that point just telling the world that we have an open border policy and will welcome anyone that wants to be here?
    I agree the solution probably isn't simple at all and the precedent does matter. This issue not only touches many areas of policy, but it also says a lot about who we want to be.

    XTNiT-1060 through spacetime.
    05-15-2014 05:26 PM
  12. Mooncatt's Avatar
    I think the solution is rather simple, on paper at least. I agree the boarders will never be 100% secure, but we already have other anti-illegal immigration laws on the books. If our government would start enforcing them, stop giving them access to entitlements, do away with "safe haven" cities, and go after employers of illegals instead of looking the other way, then our country wouldn't be such a draw for illegals in the first place.

    Granting them amnesty, guest worker status, or any other "legal" stay would only exacerbate the problem. The reason companies hire them is for really cheap labor. If they are legalized, that means it's no longer easy for them to work under the table. Companies would have to withhold taxes, pay at least the legal minimum wage, and all the other stuff needed to comply with the laws. So what would they do? Chances are, fire the legalized aliens and find more illegals to keep paying the lower wages. Or those that would be eligible for legalization would forgo it to remain under the table.
    05-16-2014 01:06 AM
  13. A895's Avatar
    I think the solution is rather simple, on paper at least. I agree the boarders will never be 100% secure, but we already have other anti-illegal immigration laws on the books. If our government would start enforcing them, stop giving them access to entitlements, do away with "safe haven" cities, and go after employers of illegals instead of looking the other way, then our country wouldn't be such a draw for illegals in the first place.

    Granting them amnesty, guest worker status, or any other "legal" stay would only exacerbate the problem. The reason companies hire them is for really cheap labor. If they are legalized, that means it's no longer easy for them to work under the table. Companies would have to withhold taxes, pay at least the legal minimum wage, and all the other stuff needed to comply with the laws. So what would they do? Chances are, fire the legalized aliens and find more illegals to keep paying the lower wages. Or those that would be eligible for legalization would forgo it to remain under the table.
    So do you know of a solution?

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    05-16-2014 06:59 AM
  14. palandri's Avatar
    ... Companies would have to withhold taxes, pay at least the legal minimum wage, and all the other stuff needed to comply with the laws. So what would they do? Chances are, fire the legalized aliens and find more illegals to keep paying the lower wages. Or those that would be eligible for legalization would forgo it to remain under the table.
    They all don't work for cash and run back to the border.

    A new study by the Institute for Taxation and Economic Policy shows that undocumented immigrants paid $8.4 billion in sales taxes, $1.6 billion in property taxes, and $1.2 billion in personal income taxes last year. The study also estimates that nearly half of all undocumented immigrants pay income taxes.
    Undocumented Immigrants Paid $11.2 Billion In Taxes While GE Paid Nothing | ThinkProgress
    05-16-2014 08:05 AM
  15. phoneaddict78's Avatar
    http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigr...caillegals.htm

    Sent from my LG-LS980 using AC Forums mobile app
    05-16-2014 09:34 AM
  16. Mooncatt's Avatar
    They all don't work for cash and run back to the border.
    Maybe not the illegals themselves, but Western Union sure makes a lot of money from the money those illegals are wiring back to family in their home country. That was a big thing come payday at a store I worked at in an area with a large illegal population, and I suspect it's the same around the country

    On the topic of taxes, the sales tax comparison is moot, as everyone pays that regardless of legal and working status (even tourists pay it). Same for property taxes because as the article you linked also says:

    ITEP assumes that most unauthorized immigrants are renters, and only calculates the taxes paid by renters.
    Again, anyone renting automatically pays property taxes because part of the rent covers that and a person's legal status here doesn't matter. Just like with sales taxes.

    Income taxes (the tax I was specifically addressing) does depend on your legal status and would require either an SSN or tax ID. A local government may offer a tax ID if ignoring immigration laws, but that wouldn't be good for Federal and an SSN would have to be fake/stolen if you're an illegal. I guess they could potentially get a federal tax ID, but then that would be fraudulent as well. Plus your article had a link to another one for source material, which also mentioned the methodology for estimating income taxes paid.

    From http://m.immigrationpolicy.org/?url=...-pay-taxes-too
    The Institute for Taxation and Economic Policy (ITEP) has estimated the state and local taxes paid in 2010 by households that are headed by unauthorized immigrants. These households may include members who are U.S. citizens or legal immigrants...

    ...The ITEP methodology relies on three pieces of data: 1) an estimate of each states unauthorized population; 2) the average family income for unauthorized immigrants; and 3) state-specific tax payments.* Of course, it is difficult to know precisely how much these families pay in taxes, because the spending and income behavior of these families is not as well documented as is the case for U.S. citizens.
    So not only are they making guesses on how many illegals pay taxes, but they are lumping in an unknown number of legal taxpayers to that same group. Forgive me if I don't buy the argument that illegals pay a lot of income tax.
    05-16-2014 09:43 AM
  17. palandri's Avatar
    Maybe not the illegals themselves, but Western Union sure makes a lot of money from the money those illegals are wiring back to family in their home country. That was a big thing come payday at a store I worked at in an area with a large illegal population, and I suspect it's the same around the country .....
    How do you know they are all illegals? Did you go up and ask each one if they had a green card?

    Do they actually cost tax payers more than the Welfare Queen Walmart? How McDonald's and Wal-Mart Became Welfare Queens - Bloomberg
    rexxman likes this.
    05-16-2014 09:56 AM
  18. Farish's Avatar
    I don't know about other states, but in California, the instant there is a lapse in coverage, the DMV knows. They have been sharing the information electronically for years.
    05-16-2014 10:14 AM
  19. Mooncatt's Avatar
    How do you know they are all illegals? Did you go up and ask each one if they had a green card?
    They didn't speak English (usually using their kid or a store employee to translate) and those employees also knowing many of them outside the store.

    Do they actually cost tax payers more than the Welfare Queen Walmart? How McDonald's and Wal-Mart Became Welfare Queens - Bloomberg
    Why do you keep trying to bring up topics that have nothing to do with the subject of immigration?
    05-16-2014 10:31 AM
  20. palandri's Avatar
    They didn't speak English (usually using their kid or a store employee to translate) and those employees also knowing many of them outside the store.
    I am Sicilian. My skin isn't white-white. My grandparents barely spoke English.

    I've walked across the border to Mexico several times. When coming back to the states I am always behind a line of Mexicans showing their visa to get into the states. Unless you've carded these people to know with 100% certainty they don't have a visa, It sure seems like you are just assuming they are all illegals. If you know with 100% certainty that they are all illegals, how many times have you called ICE?


    Why do you keep trying to bring up topics that have nothing to do with the subject of immigration?
    The statement was related to cost and taxes, which was your argument. You stated it with cost and taxes, even though you don't believe the study by Institute for Taxation and Economic Policy.
    05-16-2014 10:48 AM
  21. Mooncatt's Avatar
    If you know with 100% certainty that they are all illegals, how many times have you called ICE?
    Immigration (I lived there before the current ICE agency was developed) made regular raids on the meat packing facilities in the area, but it didn't do any good. They conveniently gave the illegals the day off those days


    The statement was related to cost and taxes, which was your argument. You stated it with cost and taxes, even though you don't believe the study by Institute for Taxation and Economic Policy.
    I made those points as they related to the cost and taxes of hiring illegals. That has nothing to with corporations using legal means to avoid taxes. That's another debate all it's own and I think you already know my solution to those issues.
    05-16-2014 11:04 AM
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