06-13-2014 06:48 PM
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  1. oz123's Avatar
    As far as I know, nothing. Now tell me what these fast food workers do to justify more than what they are paid? Everyone keeps talking about overpaid CEOs and Wall Street executives and how these companies can afford to pay more. I hear how these people "need" more money to survive. What I am not hearing is why they are worth any more than what they are paid.
    Because they are working and contributing to society, and as such deserve to be paid a liveable wage. What that figure is I cannot say, but the current level is not enough for an individual to sustain themselves with the basic needs of a human being.

    Nobody in a first world country, working a full time job, should have to resort to government assistance.
    palandri and TOTtomdora like this.
    05-17-2014 10:15 PM
  2. anon8126715's Avatar
    This thread has made it clear that you can judge a book by it's cover.
    I agree, apparently people that make insane amounts of money are the hardest working, and those that don't make that much are just lazy individuals that have made poor decisions....... I'm glad we live in such a black and white society, it's much easier to disassociate those less fortunate and envelop oneself in our own little glass menagerie.
    05-17-2014 10:26 PM
  3. palandri's Avatar
    Because they are working and contributing to society, and as such deserve to be paid a liveable wage. What that figure is I cannot say, but the current level is not enough for an individual to sustain themselves with the basic needs of a human being.

    Nobody in a first world country, working a full time job, should have to resort to government assistance.
    +1
    05-17-2014 10:26 PM
  4. palandri's Avatar
    I agree, apparently people that make insane amounts of money are the hardest working, and those that don't make that much are just lazy individuals that have made poor decisions....... I'm glad we live in such a black and white society, it's much easier to disassociate those less fortunate and envelop oneself in our own little glass menagerie.
    Don't you dare question it or else you'll be labelled a left wing, pinko socialist out to destroy freedom.
    oz123, msndrstood and A895 like this.
    05-17-2014 10:29 PM
  5. anon8126715's Avatar
    Don't you dare question it or else you'll be labelled a left wing, pinko socialist out to destroy freedom.
    I personally would like to know what some of these people that have decided all fast food workers are "lazy poor choice making scum" do for a living. A discussion we had several months ago (very similar in nature) had one guy talking down about these "lazy poor choice makers" and revealed that he was a truck driver by trade. I found it rather amusing that someone that SITS DOWN for a living could claim anyone that has to STAND all day was lazy. I probably posted this already, but I think Jon Stewart has quite a good show on this issue.

    Fox News Welfare Academy - The Daily Show - Video Clip | Comedy Central
    oz123 likes this.
    05-17-2014 10:42 PM
  6. Mooncatt's Avatar
    One of the top earning CEOs in this country makes close to $100 million a year. If you had 6000 McDonalds employees working full time at McDonalds, they still wouldn't make that kind of money. The last reported salary for the CEO of McDonalds makes $9,247 AN HOUR. That's NINE THOUSAND, TWO HUNDRED, and FORTY SEVEN dollars an hour. In what sane world would anyone think that making that kind of money is justifiable while we have some people working full time jobs (some more than one full time job) not even making 1/30th that rate?
    What would you like them to do? Go with the usual "make the CEO give up some of his salaries to pay the other workers more" argument? Well I put some numbers together.

    McDonald's current and last retired CEOs (via reported retirement package) earned a combined total compensation of $41.5M in 2012. ( source) That breaks down to $19952/hr for an average 40 hr work week. I couldn't pin down any exact numbers, but after various searches, I'm going to assume a worldwide workforce of 750,000. It's likely larger, but this lower number would eliminate much of upper management that most probably feel already get paid that (mythical) living wage and not need a raise anyway. Plus any increase above that number just makes the results worse

    So if the current AND former CEOs gave up 100% of their earnings from McDonald's and gave it all to the employees, it wouldn't even amount to a $.03/hr raise. *yawn* Big money for the average worker, huh? Where do you expect the money to come from to pay these workers so much more? Say goodbye to the dollar menu, and hello to the $5 menu.


    Because they are working and contributing to society, and as such deserve to be paid a liveable wage. What that figure is I cannot say, but the current level is not enough for an individual to sustain themselves with the basic needs of a human being.
    Contributing what, exactly? You can make better food at home for less, so they are only contributing convenience to society by doing menial tasks. That's hardly anything to brag about, especially when you consider the quality of their product and service overall. As I've said before, you simply being able to fog up a mirror at work doesn't make the value of your labor worth anything. Your productivity and the replaceability of your labor dictates that.
    05-17-2014 11:19 PM
  7. Mooncatt's Avatar
    A discussion we had several months ago (very similar in nature) had one guy talking down about these "lazy poor choice makers" and revealed that he was a truck driver by trade. I found it rather amusing that someone that SITS DOWN for a living could claim anyone that has to STAND all day was lazy.
    That would be me, and the full context of my belief is that those kinds of jobs are not ment to be a career track. It's where new workers can gain job experience, like how interact with co-workers and management, the importance of being on time, etc. If you're well past school age and the only jobs you can find are minimum wage, then yes, you have been lazy and made poor choices along your path. I could list why you're wrong about truckers being lazy because we sit all day, but you mentioned working on that super expensive equipment earlier in this thread. I bet it was also pretty complex and dangerous if something went wrong. Before I was a trucker I was an engineer with a drafting degree, so let's put it in more relatable terms for you.

    The team of engineers that designed that machine sat all day drawing up the blueprints. They went through special schooling, have to know countless manufacturing standards, ensure compliance with who knows how many safety standards, make sure the machine is durable, interact with other design and planning teams, and make sure everything is good to go for production. Let's also not forget they had to do all that and meet deadlines, or likely be penalised heavily if they didn't. Your company's revenue probably depended a lot on that machine functioning properly, but more importantly, your safety relied on those designers. Yet by your logic, they too must be lazy and not worth being paid more than someone flipping burgers because they sit all day at work.
    05-17-2014 11:51 PM
  8. oz123's Avatar




    Contributing what, exactly? You can make better food at home for less, so they are only contributing convenience to society by doing menial tasks. That's hardly anything to brag about, especially when you consider the quality of their product and service overall. As I've said before, you simply being able to fog up a mirror at work doesn't make the value of your labor worth anything. Your productivity and the replaceability of your labor dictates that.
    I ask you once more, what exactly did Wall Street contribute to justify their $27billion bonus?
    05-18-2014 12:23 AM
  9. Mooncatt's Avatar
    I ask you once more, what exactly did Wall Street contribute to justify their $27billion bonus?
    Probably a lot of big decisions that could either make or break companies and retirement plans. I'm sure they weren't just sitting on their thumbs the whole time, if that's what you're getting at.

    And if you're going to use the "living wage" argument, you need to define what that is. I've yet to see anyone define it, and justify why these extremely low skilled jobs are worth it.
    05-18-2014 12:51 AM
  10. oz123's Avatar
    Probably a lot of big decisions that could either make or break companies and retirement plans. I'm sure they weren't just sitting on their thumbs the whole time, if that's what you're getting at.

    And if you're going to use the "living wage" argument, you need to define what that is. I've yet to see anyone define it, and justify why these extremely low skilled jobs are worth it.
    What I am getting at is that Wall Street was not more productive. They were investing other peoples money, and charging them, for their $27 billion dollar "bonus". This is what I call greed. Why do people accept this, yet begrudge someone making the least amount, a modest increase to their base salary?


    I cannot say what a liveable wage in the USA should be, but I imagine there are ample people that can determine that figure. Lets just say it should be enough to not warrant government assistance. That seems fair to me.
    palandri and A895 like this.
    05-18-2014 01:53 AM
  11. palandri's Avatar
    Because they are working and contributing to society, and as such deserve to be paid a liveable wage. What that figure is I cannot say, but the current level is not enough for an individual to sustain themselves with the basic needs of a human being.

    Nobody in a first world country, working a full time job, should have to resort to government assistance.
    I agree and the folks saying those making minimum wage or slightly above minimum wage don't deserve anymore because they suck at life, are a major part of the problem.
    msndrstood and A895 like this.
    05-18-2014 07:24 AM
  12. A895's Avatar
    What I am getting at is that Wall Street was not more productive. They were investing other peoples money, and charging them, for their $27 billion dollar "bonus". This is what I call greed. Why do people accept this, yet begrudge someone making the least amount, a modest increase to their base salary?


    I cannot say what a liveable wage in the USA should be, but I imagine there are ample people that can determine that figure. Lets just say it should be enough to not warrant government assistance. That seems fair to me.
    You said it beautifully. We let people in the 1% get billions in bonuses each year yet we are reluctant to let low wage workers get a modest increase in wages. Makes little sense to me.

    Posted via Android Central App
    palandri likes this.
    05-18-2014 10:51 AM
  13. Timelessblur's Avatar
    Any one trying to defend CEO pay and insane increase. Try to explain and justify the increase because of minimum wage had kept up with average CEO pay minimum wage would be over $25 and hour.

    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
    A895 likes this.
    05-18-2014 12:40 PM
  14. anon8126715's Avatar
    I agree and the folks saying those making minimum wage or slightly above minimum wage don't deserve anymore because they suck at life, are a major part of the problem.
    Would it be fair to say that those people suck at critical thinking?
    A895 likes this.
    05-18-2014 01:48 PM
  15. The Hustleman's Avatar
    The right will argue that it will raise prices, but that "logic" is like the logic of gas prices. Whenever you hear about conflict in the middle east, or some other oil producing nation, you'll see gas prices spike and will hear someone claim that it's due to the conflict in the _____ region. Yet when those conflicts subside, you don't see gas prices go back down. They tend to stay at that price. Why do you suppose that is the case?

    The same thing will probably happen if they decide to pay their employees $15 an hour, sure you may see an immediate spike in fast food, that's so those opposed can say, "look I told you this would happen!". The same thing happened around the time Obamacare started to go live, some of the more fiendish companies laid off some employees blaming Obamacare. I haven't seen the big calamity that some people insisted would take place once Obamacare went live.
    It would raise prices, when you raise an expense, the money to cover that raised expense has to come from somewhere.

    You suddenly have to pay that 8 dollar an hour McDonald's worker 15 bucks, best believe the price of food has to go up, you almost doubled payroll!



    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk 2
    05-18-2014 02:46 PM
  16. A895's Avatar
    It would raise prices, when you raise an expense, the money to cover that raised expense has to come from somewhere.

    You suddenly have to pay that 8 dollar an hour McDonald's worker 15 bucks, best believe the price of food has to go up, you almost doubled payroll!



    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk 2
    1.) McDonalds workers make less than $8.00 an hour

    2.) Raising Minimum wage to $10 (that's the actual minimum wage that was discussed in Congress) would more than likely raise prices for food by maybe less than $2.00, which by the way is addictive food, no matter the economy McDonalds has always done well.

    3.) You are right prices may increase, but wouldn't an increase wage cover that anyways? At that this is fast food, a want not a need.
    05-18-2014 03:00 PM
  17. toober's Avatar
    3.) You are right prices may increase, but wouldn't an increase wage cover that anyways? At that this is fast food, a want not a need.
    So you agree that increasing wages would increase prices. That is a good start. Now, let's look at who is affected by the rise in prices. As you stated, the increased wages will cover the increased costs for the low wage employees, so that is a wash, they end up essentially in the same boat as before. What about people that already make more than minimum wage but not as much as the upper wage earners? They must deal with price increases on the same pay as they were already making. We know that the 1% will not notice the price increase because they already have more than enough money. So, we have the low wage employees and the 1% left in the same place they were before. The only people we have affected here is the middle class.
    05-18-2014 03:41 PM
  18. A895's Avatar
    So you agree that increasing wages would increase prices. That is a good start. Now, let's look at who is affected by the rise in prices. As you stated, the increased wages will cover the increased costs for the low wage employees, so that is a wash, they end up essentially in the same boat as before. What about people that already make more than minimum wage but not as much as the upper wage earners? They must deal with price increases on the same pay as they were already making. We know that the 1% will not notice the price increase because they already have more than enough money. So, we have the low wage employees and the 1% left in the same place they were before. The only people we have affected here is the middle class.
    We do not know exactly what will happen if we do increase wages. All we know for sure is that low wage workers will have more money in their pocket and that is a good start. Believe me when I say taxes more than anything will crush the middle class before increasing minimum wage.

    Sent from my XT907 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    05-18-2014 04:37 PM
  19. anon8126715's Avatar
    So you agree that increasing wages would increase prices. That is a good start. Now, let's look at who is affected by the rise in prices. As you stated, the increased wages will cover the increased costs for the low wage employees, so that is a wash, they end up essentially in the same boat as before. What about people that already make more than minimum wage but not as much as the upper wage earners? They must deal with price increases on the same pay as they were already making. We know that the 1% will not notice the price increase because they already have more than enough money. So, we have the low wage employees and the 1% left in the same place they were before. The only people we have affected here is the middle class.
    Well there's another solution, taxing the uber-wealthy to cover the cost of all these employees that need government assistance, but that's also something the right wing doesn't want to happen. In all honesty, to me this approach makes more sense. Raise taxes on the wealthy, inject these tax dollars into welfare programs, not to infinitely provide welfare, but with strings attached, "Beneficiary of welfare program must be enrolled in a post HS training program approved by the state (not necessarily a full time status, because having done a few 15 hour semesters while working 80+ hours a week, I am honestly surprised that I didn't kill myself or anyone trying to drive to-and-from school/work while sleep deprived), Welfare recipient must maintain a good standing with their educational institution". Advise the welfare recipient that their benefits will expire after a certain amount of time so that they have a decent amount of time to transition.

    Granted, I can see some of you less empathetic types being all up in arms because you'd be afraid that these "lazy scum" may actually advance.
    05-18-2014 05:03 PM
  20. Mooncatt's Avatar
    Well there's another solution, taxing the uber-wealthy to cover the cost of all these employees that need government assistance, but that's also something the right wing doesn't want to happen.
    Judging by my calculations from earlier regarding CEO pay and a wage increase, I'd doubt taxing those high earners at even 100% would make a big dent in helping welfare programs. You figure any actual tax increase would be less than 15%, maybe only 10% at most without an outright revolt, and you're not really making any big welfare changes.

    I did kind of like your idea of tying it to education and that could be a viable option. The concern there is not everyone is cut out for college and there would still need other avenues of help that still promotes people seeking higher productivity and pay.

    A personal finance and budgeting class that doesn't negatively affect your credit score would help too (I'm pretty sure regular credit counseling dings your score).
    05-18-2014 05:27 PM
  21. anon8126715's Avatar
    Judging by my calculations from earlier regarding CEO pay and a wage increase, I'd doubt taxing those high earners at even 100% would make a big dent in helping welfare programs. You figure any actual tax increase would be less than 15%, maybe only 10% at most without an outright revolt, and you're not really making any big welfare changes.

    I did kind of like your idea of tying it to education and that could be a viable option. The concern there is not everyone is cut out for college and there would still need other avenues of help that still promotes people seeking higher productivity and pay.

    A personal finance and budgeting class that doesn't negatively affect your credit score would help too (I'm pretty sure regular credit counseling dings your score).
    It doesn't have to be college, it can be a 9 month or so trade school. From what I understand there's a severe shortage of skilled trades such as electricians, plumbers, pipe fitters, ect. As a matter of fact, I would almost prefer it weren't college. 4 years worth of welfare would probably tax the system. The way I see it, the welfare recipients would make more money, get into a higher tax bracket, and those tax dollars could go towards these types of programs or towards fixing our crumbling infrastructure.

    If memory serves, FDR called this "priming the pump", which ushered in the "New Deal" era. Many people absolutely loathe taxation, but without it we can't invest in a greater societal good (Yeah go ahead and label me a "socialist pinko" if it helps your viewpoint).....
    A895 likes this.
    05-18-2014 05:34 PM
  22. toober's Avatar
    I am all for paying for school and training for welfare recipients. We had programs for this back in the 90s and I know a few people that used them to get off of the system. I have not taken the time to find out what happened to these programs, but I do think they are all gone now. I am totally in favor of any program that gets people on welfare to do something other than sit around waiting for the next check.
    05-18-2014 05:52 PM
  23. A895's Avatar
    I am all for paying for school and training for welfare recipients. We had programs for this back in the 90s and I know a few people that used them to get off of the system. I have not taken the time to find out what happened to these programs, but I do think they are all gone now. I am totally in favor of any program that gets people on welfare to do something other than sit around waiting for the next check.
    Stop generalizing because it does not help your argument.

    Sent from my XT907 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    05-18-2014 06:28 PM
  24. toober's Avatar
    Stop generalizing because it does not help your argument.

    Sent from my XT907 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    And what was my argument here? I simply stated that I am in favor of offering schooling and training for people on welfare.
    05-18-2014 06:42 PM
  25. A895's Avatar
    And what was my argument here? I simply stated that I am in favor of offering schooling and training for people on welfare.
    You then go on and say people are sitting on their behinds waiting on checks, when that is a generalization.

    Sent from my XT907 using Mobile Nations mobile app
    05-18-2014 06:51 PM
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