02-13-2015 02:25 AM
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  1. Serial Fordicator's Avatar
    What level of proof is required for you to accept it?

    Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk
    I haven't seen any that can prove climate change is due to humans and that we can control it. The climate was changing on this planet before we made factories and cars. I know a dinosaur driving a car or using incandescent bulbs didn't make the first ice age.

    No one has a problem with a little regulation to help keep the air and the water clean but if you read the proposed regulations on new emissions proposal for diesel and look to the other side at the cost, not only for auto manufacturers and refineries but the cost that will be pushed to the consumer and the jobs that will be lost. Not by millionaires, but blue collar everyday people.

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    05-28-2014 08:42 AM
  2. Serial Fordicator's Avatar
    Drinking water from a hose isn't bad because of the water supply, it's bad because of the hoses use recycled materials that may be toxic.

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    05-28-2014 08:45 AM
  3. anon8126715's Avatar
    I haven't seen any that can prove climate change is due to humans and that we can control it. The climate was changing on this planet before we made factories and cars. I know a dinosaur driving a car or using incandescent bulbs didn't make the first ice age.

    No one has a problem with a little regulation to help keep the air and the water clean but if you read the proposed regulations on new emissions proposal for diesel and look to the other side at the cost, not only for auto manufacturers and refineries but the cost that will be pushed to the consumer and the jobs that will be lost. Not by millionaires, but blue collar everyday people.

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    We're already dealing with the costs of climate change. Look at the natural disasters that are taking place. Wildfires, hurricanes, and tornadoes. What use is having a job if the site has been ripped to shreds by a natural disaster?
    05-28-2014 08:45 AM
  4. Serial Fordicator's Avatar
    We're already dealing with the costs of climate change. Look at the natural disasters that are taking place. Wildfires, hurricanes, and tornadoes. What use is having a job if the site has been ripped to shreds by a natural disaster?
    Do you honestly think that if we had zero emissions that hurricanes, wildfires, and tornadoes wouldn't exist?

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    05-28-2014 09:11 AM
  5. anon8126715's Avatar
    Do you honestly think that if we had zero emissions that hurricanes, wildfires, and tornadoes wouldn't exist?

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    Do you really think that I think that? Does it make more sense that the magnitude of some of these natural disasters has been amplified because of our insatiable appetite?

    Here's some information that hopefully won't be rejected as some sort of "leftist liberal website". Although, I suspect since it doesn't reinforce right wing ideology, you may think it insincere. Steady Increase in Climate Related Natural Disasters - Climate Change Weather Blog

    From their website, you can see the chart below and how the cost of these natural disasters is rising. These are materialistic costs btw, there's no way to measure traumatic loss, the emotional impact of loss of life, etc.

    I think I figured out the Climate Change/Politics paradox....-590x249_11151949_screen-shot-2013-11-15-1.35.00-pm.png
    05-28-2014 09:20 AM
  6. Serial Fordicator's Avatar
    Do you really think that I think that? Does it make more sense that the magnitude of some of these natural disasters has been amplified because of our insatiable appetite?

    Here's some information that hopefully won't be rejected as some sort of "leftist liberal website". Although, I suspect since it doesn't reinforce right wing ideology, you may think it insincere. Steady Increase in Climate Related Natural Disasters - Climate Change Weather Blog

    From their website, you can see the chart below and how the cost of these natural disasters is rising. These are materialistic costs btw, there's no way to measure traumatic loss, the emotional impact of loss of life, etc.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    If the epa restrictions are helping, why doesnt the graph get better? No one is denying that climate doesnt change, I'm denying man causing it. The climate 500 years ago was different than the climate 500 years before. If there is another ice age, man can't control it. We didn't control the first.

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    05-28-2014 09:34 AM
  7. anon8126715's Avatar
    If the epa restrictions are helping, why doesn’t the graph get better? No one is denying that climate doesn’t change, I'm denying man causing it. The climate 500 years ago was different than the climate 500 years before. If there is another ice age, man can't control it. We didn't control the first.

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    That's the same argument people use for the recovery. The President wanted X amount of money, but congress only gave him Y. Many economists said that the recovery hasn't been as quick because the amount needed wasn't what it should've been. To actually see change in our climate, drastic measures would need to take place that would severely affect commerce. Considering we live in such a pro business society, do you actually think that we could pass legislation strong enough to show a marked change in our climate?
    05-28-2014 09:43 AM
  8. Mooncatt's Avatar
    Caterpillar for one.
    They aren't out of a job, they can easily transition to related ones. Like repair shops to attempt fixing these new emission controlled engines by throwing parts at them (waste from various shop supplies like oil and grease, as well as the old junk parts), manufacturing new parts (increase pollution from manufacturing replacement parts. 3 turbos, a couple egr coolers, and some egr valves in a year anyone?), or additional towing services to drag these new broke down trucks to the shop (increased emissions from the wreckers).

    Or maybe they could open their own R&D shops to try and figure out why these supposed latest and greatest trucks loose half their fuel economy (making them worse than the pre-emission trucks) because no one else can seem to figure it out. The usual answer now days is "it's not throwing a code, so we don't know what three problem is." Even the shops that specialize in this sort of thing can't figure out how to keep new trucks running right other than to remove all the emission garbage, which is illegal.

    So there's plenty of job opportunities out there for the Caterpillar workers, just in areas that create more waste and pollution than if the EPA hadn't bullied the manufactures into emission controls that weren't fully tested. Even one of the top designers of the egr system on diesels said that was about the worst thing you could do to one, but they had no choice.
    Serial Fordicator likes this.
    05-28-2014 10:13 AM
  9. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    Drinking water from a hose isn't bad because of the water supply, it's bad because of the hoses use recycled materials that may be toxic.

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    What if you have well water and want to drink from a hose (the garden hose gets split off BEFORE any sort of whole house filtration and/or softening system)? I bet the cleanliness of the water supply would matter then.
    05-28-2014 10:27 AM
  10. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    I haven't seen any that can prove climate change is due to humans and that we can control it. The climate was changing on this planet before we made factories and cars. I know a dinosaur driving a car or using incandescent bulbs didn't make the first ice age.

    No one has a problem with a little regulation to help keep the air and the water clean but if you read the proposed regulations on new emissions proposal for diesel and look to the other side at the cost, not only for auto manufacturers and refineries but the cost that will be pushed to the consumer and the jobs that will be lost. Not by millionaires, but blue collar everyday people.

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    We can absolutely control the negative impact that we have.
    05-28-2014 10:40 AM
  11. Serial Fordicator's Avatar
    What if you have well water and want to drink from a hose (the garden hose gets split off BEFORE any sort of whole house filtration and/or softening system)? I bet the cleanliness of the water supply would matter then.
    Omg... really?

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    05-28-2014 10:57 AM
  12. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    Omg... really?

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    Really what? I'm confused. Do you not believe that people have well water anymore? Or is this "not important enough" because people aren't getting sick from it yet?

    Your response is confusing to me, so I guess I really just need it explained a little bit better than your somewhat condescending reply.
    05-28-2014 11:07 AM
  13. Serial Fordicator's Avatar
    Really what? I'm confused. Do you not believe that people have well water anymore? Or is this "not important enough" because people aren't getting sick from it yet?

    Your response is confusing to me, so I guess I really just need it explained a little bit better than your somewhat condescending reply.
    That you had to come up with an off the wall scenario. The big push to keep children and people from drinking water from garden hoses are because of the materials used in the hoses. Garden hoses are not regulated to the drinking standards of other materials. I grew up on well water.
    http://www.examiner.com/article/canc...me-water-hoses
    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    05-28-2014 11:27 AM
  14. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    That you had to come up with an off the wall scenario. The big push to keep children and people from drinking water from garden hoses are because of the materials used in the hoses. Garden hoses are not regulated to the drinking standards of other materials. I grew up on well water.
    Cancer warning label on some water hoses - National Women's Health | Examiner.com
    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    Well that wasn't where I was going with it at all. Remove the garden hose from the scenario completely and my point still stands. It's not an "off-the-wall" scenario as I remember drinking straight from the garden hose and/or spigot as a kid quite a few times when I was playing outside.

    As for the garden hose stuff, I guess we could regulate it, right? Require them to remove all cancer causing material from them. But then, I would be worried about all the jobs lost because of that regulation. Maybe it would be better to make it illegal to drink from garden hoses.
    palandri likes this.
    05-28-2014 12:28 PM
  15. rexxman's Avatar
    It doesn't take government regulations to cause loss of jobs in the USA.

    Millions of jobs have already been lost due to corporate greed. But some only get upset about job loss in the most narrow of conditions. Or, as a counter to anything they dont agree with. If you are really against US jobs losses, attack corporate greed not government regulations. More bang for the buck.

    Detroit fought tooth and nail over CAFE standards for years. Used much political muscle to defeat them. Made the claims they couldn't do it, jobs would be lost, etc. etc. Guess what? Foreign car companies took on the challenge and got it done. And the US auto industry DID change to stay competitive. Yes, it could be done.

    I grew up in California and remember when the state government passed strict environmental laws about industrial pollution. Some neighboring states gladly accepted those polluting industries and declared California had lost out. Really? When a danger (pollution) is uncovered and then govt/industry do nothing or promote more of it, the citizenry loses.

    If you wish to BELIEVE that man-made CO2 emissions are not altering the earth's climate, well, that's your right. But I prefer SCIENCE over BELIEFS. And the evidence is clear.

    And before you doubters start all your chatter about 'oh yeah, where is the proof, where are your links?', I'll just state now you'll need to go find them yourselves. You are operating from a BELIEF viewpoint and will not accept anything I provide. I remember a few old sayings; "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still and You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink".

    Posted via Android Central App
    05-28-2014 03:00 PM
  16. anon8126715's Avatar
    I remember a few old sayings; "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still” and ”You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink".

    Posted via Android Central App
    Just don't make him drink from the water hose or else you'll open another can of worms and get pulled into some sort of right wing alternate reality where illogical thought is the norm.
    05-28-2014 06:21 PM
  17. Serial Fordicator's Avatar
    It doesn't take government regulations to cause loss of jobs in the USA.

    Millions of jobs have already been lost due to corporate greed. But some only get upset about job loss in the most narrow of conditions. Or, as a counter to anything they dont agree with. If you are really against US jobs losses, attack corporate greed not government regulations. More bang for the buck.

    Detroit fought tooth and nail over CAFE standards for years. Used much political muscle to defeat them. Made the claims they couldn't do it, jobs would be lost, etc. etc. Guess what? Foreign car companies took on the challenge and got it done. And the US auto industry DID change to stay competitive. Yes, it could be done.

    I grew up in California and remember when the state government passed strict environmental laws about industrial pollution. Some neighboring states gladly accepted those polluting industries and declared California had lost out. Really? When a danger (pollution) is uncovered and then govt/industry do nothing or promote more of it, the citizenry loses.

    If you wish to BELIEVE that man-made CO2 emissions are not altering the earth's climate, well, that's your right. But I prefer SCIENCE over BELIEFS. And the evidence is clear.

    And before you doubters start all your chatter about 'oh yeah, where is the proof, where are your links?', I'll just state now you'll need to go find them yourselves. You are operating from a BELIEF viewpoint and will not accept anything I provide. I remember a few old sayings; "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still and You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink".

    Posted via Android Central App
    The greedy boogeymen have laid people off but it's usually a direct result of government regulations. I am sick to death of hearing about all of these rich evil people that no one can name. Sure, there are some evil ones, but there are some evil poor people too. Government can't make jobs. If the government makes a job, it's a subsidy.

    Last i checked Detroit is not really a prime example of a business model. The only reason the auto makers are still afloat is because of the backs of taxpayers, mostly the middle class who barely make ends meet. Detroit was horrible because you can't run a business when the average employee makes $78 an hour, and give millions in bonuses unless you sale your product for an unbelievable price.

    California is one of the brokest states due to it's failed green policies that do more harm than good. But no, noone cares where the money comes from. Just keep the yoke of burden on the taxpayers.

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    05-28-2014 06:24 PM
  18. anon8126715's Avatar
    The greedy boogeymen have laid people off but it's usually a direct result of government regulations. I am sick to death of hearing about all of these rich evil people that no one can name. Sure, there are some evil ones, but there are some evil poor people too. Government can't make jobs. If the government makes a job, it's a subsidy.

    Last i checked Detroit is not really a prime example of a business model. The only reason the auto makers are still afloat is because of the backs of taxpayers, mostly the middle class who barely make ends meet. Detroit was horrible because you can't run a business when the average employee makes $78 an hour, and give millions in bonuses unless you sale your product for an unbelievable price.

    California is one of the brokest states due to it's failed green policies that do more harm than good. But no, noone cares where the money comes from. Just keep the yoke of burden on the taxpayers.

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    I don't even know where to start...... Maybe I'll start by suggesting that you turn off Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh.
    palandri, A895 and nolittdroid like this.
    05-28-2014 06:31 PM
  19. Serial Fordicator's Avatar
    I don't even know where to start...... Maybe I'll start by suggesting that you turn off Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh.
    Wrong again as usual. I don't get Glenn Beck's channel and Rush is too biased and like alot of liberals, is too hypocritical.

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    05-28-2014 08:02 PM
  20. anon8126715's Avatar
    Wrong again as usual. I don't get Glenn Beck's channel and Rush is too biased and like alot of liberals, is too hypocritical.

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    So you are aware that you can't get Glenn Beck's channel in your area? That must mean that you actively looked for it, and explains a lot.....
    A895 likes this.
    05-28-2014 08:39 PM
  21. Kevin OQuinn's Avatar
    The greedy boogeymen have laid people off but it's usually a direct result of government regulations. I am sick to death of hearing about all of these rich evil people that no one can name. Sure, there are some evil ones, but there are some evil poor people too. Government can't make jobs. If the government makes a job, it's a subsidy.

    Last i checked Detroit is not really a prime example of a business model. The only reason the auto makers are still afloat is because of the backs of taxpayers, mostly the middle class who barely make ends meet. Detroit was horrible because you can't run a business when the average employee makes $78 an hour, and give millions in bonuses unless you sale your product for an unbelievable price.

    California is one of the brokest states due to it's failed green policies that do more harm than good. But no, noone cares where the money comes from. Just keep the yoke of burden on the taxpayers.

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    Have any links to prove that?

    Really, that's why? I just did a Google search "why is california broke" and got ten different reasons on the first page. None of them had to do with "failed green policies". But nice try.

    Detroit is a perfect example of why it's important for industries to get behind new technology and embrace them.
    05-28-2014 08:58 PM
  22. toober's Avatar
    So you are aware that you can't get Glenn Beck's channel in your area? That must mean that you actively looked for it, and explains a lot.....
    What, if I may ask, is wrong with Glenn Beck? And please, if you decide to answer the question, be specific.
    05-28-2014 08:58 PM
  23. Serial Fordicator's Avatar
    So you are aware that you can't get Glenn Beck's channel in your area? That must mean that you actively looked for it, and explains a lot.....
    I will listen to Glenn. Heck, I'll listen to Bill Maher. At least they aren't hypocrites. I don't agree with alot they say but I can't listen to hypocrites. From what I've heard from him he calls both sides out. He didn't give Bush a pass on things he has nailed obama on. I've read alot on here that does the opposite. I've seen liberals on here blast Bush but praise obama on.


    Who do you listen to? Someone that echos the same fallacies and is just as hypocritical as you are with your views of "someone else will pay for it."

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    05-28-2014 08:59 PM
  24. Serial Fordicator's Avatar
    What, if I may ask, is wrong with Glenn Beck? And please, if you decide to answer the question, be specific.
    He's a nut because msnbc told me so.

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    05-28-2014 09:01 PM
  25. Serial Fordicator's Avatar
    Have any links to prove that?

    Really, that's why? I just did a Google search "why is california broke" and got ten different reasons on the first page. None of them had to do with "failed green policies". But nice try.

    Detroit is a perfect example of why it's important for industries to get behind new technology and embrace them.
    I'll try to find the story I read a while back.

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    05-28-2014 09:06 PM
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