07-18-2014 04:07 PM
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  1. Scott7217's Avatar
    For profit companies are ran by people that bring their own personal beliefs and/or code of ethics in the front door. I'm glad to see this and other companies stand for something besides the bottom line. Not everything is about greed...
    I would like to believe you, but I'm having trouble when I see articles like this:

    Hobby Lobby 401(k) Invests in Birth Control Makers -- Associated Press (article link here)

    Excerpts:

    "Hobby Lobby's 401(k) plan includes funds that invest in Teva Pharmaceutical Industries, maker of Plan B, known as the morning-after pill, and ParaGard, an intrauterine device. Hobby Lobby objects to offering employee coverage for both forms of birth control."

    "Other holdings include Pfizer, maker of the drugs Cytotec and Prostin E2 used to induce abortions, and Forest Laboratories, maker of Cervidil, which is also used to induce abortions. Some of the funds also invest in health insurance companies Aetna and Humana, which offer policies covering emergency contraception and surgical abortions."

    "Hobby Lobby offered to match employee contributions to the 401(k) plan, an amount totaling $3.8 million in 2012."
    07-01-2014 05:09 AM
  2. pappy53's Avatar
    I would like to believe you, but I'm having trouble when I see articles like this:

    Hobby Lobby 401(k) Invests in Birth Control Makers -- Associated Press (article link here)

    Excerpts:

    "Hobby Lobby's 401(k) plan includes funds that invest in Teva Pharmaceutical Industries, maker of Plan B, known as the morning-after pill, and ParaGard, an intrauterine device. Hobby Lobby objects to offering employee coverage for both forms of birth control."

    "Other holdings include Pfizer, maker of the drugs Cytotec and Prostin E2 used to induce abortions, and Forest Laboratories, maker of Cervidil, which is also used to induce abortions. Some of the funds also invest in health insurance companies Aetna and Humana, which offer policies covering emergency contraception and surgical abortions."

    "Hobby Lobby offered to match employee contributions to the 401(k) plan, an amount totaling $3.8 million in 2012."
    They probably have a company that handles their 401k plan, and not be aware where the funds are being invested.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    rusty502 likes this.
    07-01-2014 06:41 AM
  3. Mooncatt's Avatar
    I know for a fact that PrEP regiments are covered by a number of insurance companies now as I have friends using them. The success rate is quite high from what I've heard.

    As for your personal responsibility bit, I could see a company using that same argument to not cover, leading to HIV infections. HIV can linger in a body awhile before it shows up on test, making your STD results wait rather impractical when it comes to matters of the heart or other parts which often wait for no one. It's just reality. People are going to have sex. And they won't always wait until marriage or for an STD testing phase which makes things a little too scheduled and planned out. Sex is usually spontaneous.
    So what exactly is your concern about covering HIV prevention drug coverage as it relates to this case? And as for STD testing and whether or not to wait, it's still an option for prevention and the choice not to wait is one people take knowing the potential consequences. But that's probably getting off track for this thread anyway.
    07-01-2014 10:48 AM
  4. SteveISU's Avatar
    Read up on it. Multiple one had conflict there and Roberts told them pretty much hell no on being allowed to recluse themselves.
    Try again.


    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

    Justice Kagan worked at the DOJ and advised the DOJ attorneys on how to argue the merits of Obamacare. She committed perjury before a Senate Judiciary Committee during her confirmation hearings by answering “No” when asked specifically if she had any involvement in preparing the government’s defense for ObamaCare. She was Solicitor General when the law passed, her appointment to the SC was very much a result of her position on the legality of the law. No conflict of interest there? lol
    07-01-2014 11:01 AM
  5. GadgetGator's Avatar
    They probably have a company that handles their 401k plan, and not be aware where the funds are being invested.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Not be aware? This info has been out there for a long time and I haven't heard any info on them changing anything. They've had plenty of time to address it. Just yet another example of religious hypocrisy.

    Posted via Android Central App
    msndrstood and Scott7217 like this.
    07-01-2014 12:33 PM
  6. Mooncatt's Avatar
    Not be aware? This info has been out there for a long time and I haven't heard any info on them changing anything. They've had plenty of time to address it. Just yet another example of religious hypocrisy.
    It's no different from anti-oil politicians that own stock in oil companies.
    07-01-2014 12:37 PM
  7. GadgetGator's Avatar
    So what exactly is your concern about covering HIV prevention drug coverage as it relates to this case?.
    I believe I was quite clear on that. My concern is that this case will embolden similar cases. If an argument can be made not to fund one thing based on religious objections, then why not others? I see more cases coming based on gay or HIV coverages.

    This is why ultimately, I do not think the mix of secular ideals and religion work. Everyone ends up unhappy. Countries should probably be set up as either entirely secular, or a theocracy. Trying to bridge those two things is messy and leads to all sorts of unnecessary conflict. It's something we have been struggling with for 237 years, and we still are! And the push/pull on this gets old.

    Posted via Android Central App
    07-01-2014 12:44 PM
  8. SteveISU's Avatar
    I believe I was quite clear on that. My concern is that this case will embolden similar cases. If an argument can be made not to fund one thing based on religious objections, then why not others? I see more cases coming based on gay or HIV coverages.

    This is why ultimately, I do not think the mix of secular ideals and religion work. Everyone ends up unhappy. Countries should probably be set up as either entirely secular, or a theocracy. Trying to bridge those two things is messy and leads to all sorts of unnecessary conflict. It's something we have been struggling with for 237 years, and we still are! And the push/pull on this gets old.

    Posted via Android Central App
    The supreme court was clear that this decision should not allow for the discrimination of any kind, as it only pertains to these 4 drugs that deem to end life. A owner of a coffee shop who's Jehovah's witness can't abstain from providing health insurance to it's employees on the basis that those surgeries may involve blood transfusions.

    As it pertains to HIV, I'm pretty sure the gay community isn't the only community afflicted by it. Denial of these drugs wouldn't amount to persecution of gays, it would in essence be a persecution of all of humanity.
    07-01-2014 01:47 PM
  9. nolittdroid's Avatar
    The supreme court was clear that this decision should not allow for the discrimination of any kind, as it only pertains to these 4 drugs that deem to end life. A owner of a coffee shop who's Jehovah's witness can't abstain from providing health insurance to it's employees on the basis that those surgeries may involve blood transfusions.

    As it pertains to HIV, I'm pretty sure the gay community isn't the only community afflicted by it. Denial of these drugs wouldn't amount to persecution of gays, it would in essence be a persecution of all of humanity.
    So why does your religion have to cut in on my life? What about my religious freedom? Thats great your side has been rewarded for your willful ignorance, but this is not a victory. There are a lot of women, children and men who have just been handed yet another hardship. While its nice Hobby Lobby chose to be pro-life to save some money, there are a lot of people who would have benefited from them losing this suit.

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app
    Eta: spelling
    07-01-2014 02:24 PM
  10. nolittdroid's Avatar
    Kind of funny how you put the onus all on the woman's shoulders. And yes, if a man and a wife are having sex without the intention of procreating, exactly how is that different than a man and a woman not married? The Catholic church used to be against birth control of any kind. So why are we only abiding by one church's "moral code"?

    I always find it interesting that the right wing wants less regulation on big business, but are perfectly ok with legislation on personal freedoms.
    I might be mistaken but aren't the Koch broa Catholic?

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app
    07-01-2014 02:26 PM
  11. pappy53's Avatar
    So why does your religion have to cut in on my life? What about my religious freedom? Thats great your side has been rewarded for your willful ignorance, but this is not a victory. There are a lot of women, children and men who have just been handed yet another hardship. While its nice Hobby Lobby chose to be pro-life to save some money, there are a lot of people who would have benefited from them losing this suit.

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app
    Eta: spelling

    You believe they did it for the money? Man, talk about willful ignorance!


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    07-01-2014 02:29 PM
  12. SteveISU's Avatar
    So why does your religion have to cut in on my life? What about my religious freedom? Thats great your side has been rewarded for your willful ignorance, but this is not a victory. There are a lot of women, children and men who have just been handed yet another hardship. While its nice Hobby Lobby chose to be pro-life to save some money, there are a lot of people who would have benefited from them losing this suit.

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app
    Eta: spelling
    I'm not on any side. Birth control pills are still covered, condoms are OTC, hell plan B is OTC. This is very simple, if you don't like the Green's beliefs cutting into your life DON'T WORK FOR THEM. If enough people have a problem with Hobby Lobby now, don't shop there, don't work there, and the problem will fix itself when they shut their doors.

    Do you honestly believe they will save a nickle in premiums because their plan won't cover 4 drugs/devices?
    toober and Scott7217 like this.
    07-01-2014 02:44 PM
  13. Mooncatt's Avatar
    So why does your religion have to cut in on my life? What about my religious freedom?
    What about your religious freedom? If your religion (or lack thereof) allows for you to use those 4 drugs, you're still free to do so. You're just not allowed to infringe on someone else's religious freedom by expecting them to pay for it.
    Scott7217 likes this.
    07-01-2014 03:28 PM
  14. Live2ride883's Avatar
    So why does your religion have to cut in on my life? What about my religious freedom? Thats great your side has been rewarded for your willful ignorance, but this is not a victory. There are a lot of women, children and men who have just been handed yet another hardship. While its nice Hobby Lobby chose to be pro-life to save some money, there are a lot of people who would have benefited from them losing this suit.

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using AC Forums mobile app
    Eta: spelling
    The US Govt gives planned parenthood 50+ million dollars a year, you or any other woman that insists on having one of these 4 abortion causing drugs can get it through another resource. Such as planned parenthood, etc...
    07-01-2014 03:34 PM
  15. pappy53's Avatar
    The US Govt gives planned parenthood 50+ million dollars a year, you or any other woman that insists on having one of these 4 abortion causing drugs can get it through another resource. Such as planned parenthood, etc...
    How about $540 million?

    Planned Parenthood Got $540.6 Million in Government Grants in FY 2013 | CNS News
    07-01-2014 03:43 PM
  16. nolittdroid's Avatar
    You believe they did it for the money? Man, talk about willful ignorance!


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Anyone who thinks otherwise is naive. Someone finally found a work-around with Obamacare, and this is it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The US Govt gives planned parenthood 50+ million dollars a year, you or any other woman that insists on having one of these 4 abortion causing drugs can get it through another resource. Such as planned parenthood, etc...
    Plan B is NOT an abortion pill. This is why these decisions are better left to doctors...they actually know of which they speak.
    msndrstood likes this.
    07-01-2014 04:24 PM
  17. GadgetGator's Avatar
    The supreme court was clear that this decision should not allow for the discrimination of any kind, as it only pertains to these 4 drugs that deem to end life.
    And with today's actions, already that list has been expanded to allow more drugs to be excluded.



    As it pertains to HIV, I'm pretty sure the gay community isn't the only community afflicted by it. Denial of these drugs wouldn't amount to persecution of gays, it would in essence be a persecution of all of humanity.
    You are conflating issues. No one has linked HIV drug concerns with gay discrimination in this discussion. Though separately either of those could be the target of religious objections.

    Posted via Android Central App
    07-01-2014 05:02 PM
  18. SteveISU's Avatar
    And with today's actions, already that list has been expanded to allow more drugs to be excluded.





    You are conflating issues. No one has linked HIV drug concerns with gay discrimination in this discussion. Though separately either of those could be the target of religious objections.

    Posted via Android Central App

    What actions of today allowed the expansion? Link? Or are we dealing with drugs and their generics in the same class of drugs they are allowed to exclude themselves from providing coverage for.
    Scott7217 likes this.
    07-01-2014 05:08 PM
  19. Mooncatt's Avatar
    You are conflating issues. No one has linked HIV drug concerns with gay discrimination in this discussion. Though separately either of those could be the target of religious objections.
    Other than religions that don't practice any medicine at all, I don't know of any that would ban an HIV prevention. Do you have evidence to suggest otherwise? I already addressed the gay issue in an earlier post.

    Btw, you're the one that keeps talking about HIV and gay people in the same breath.
    07-01-2014 05:14 PM
  20. GadgetGator's Avatar
    The US Govt gives planned parenthood 50+ million dollars a year, you or any other woman that insists on having one of these 4 abortion causing drugs can get it through another resource. Such as planned parenthood, etc...
    Then what's this whole issue even about then? "Oooh....I don't want to pay for something over my beliefs" well, through your government taxpayer dollars you already are. So then this case is nothing more than semantics. Especially when the moral outrage is in name only while said company has no problem in investing in abortion drug companies.

    Posted via Android Central App
    07-01-2014 05:19 PM
  21. GadgetGator's Avatar
    Other than religions that don't practice any medicine at all, I don't know of any that would ban an HIV prevention. Do you have evidence to suggest otherwise? I already addressed the gay issue in an earlier post.

    Btw, you're the one that keeps talking about HIV and gay people in the same breath.
    Because they are two issues that I worry about. That doesn't mean I think HIV only affects the gay community. How naive would that be?

    Why would you assume a religious person wouldn't have a problem with HIV prevention drugs? Many people think AIDS is some moral retribution/price to be paid.

    Posted via Android Central App
    07-01-2014 05:27 PM
  22. Scott7217's Avatar
    It's no different from anti-oil politicians that own stock in oil companies.
    I think politicians that are against oil shouldn't own oil stocks.

    Likewise, Hobby Lobby shouldn't own investments that deal with drug companies that make the very products involved in their Supreme Court case.

    A key part of the decision is that the owners of Hobby Lobby are sincere in their religious beliefs. Their investment portfolio can be used as evidence to show that Hobby Lobby is okay with contraceptives, which means that they would lose their exemption on contraceptive coverage. It would be in Hobby Lobby's best interest to at least move those investments into less controversial companies quickly.
    07-01-2014 05:31 PM
  23. SteveISU's Avatar
    Because they are two issues that I worry about. That doesn't mean I think HIV only affects the gay community. How naive would that be?

    Why would you assume a religious person wouldn't have a problem with HIV prevention drugs? Many people think AIDS is some moral retribution/price to be paid.

    Posted via Android Central App
    I think you are grossly misguided about what religious people think. The Catholic Church is the largest private provider of care to HIV/AIDS patients in the world. I don't think they do morality screening before they administer such care.
    Scott7217 likes this.
    07-01-2014 05:34 PM
  24. SteveISU's Avatar
    I think politicians that are against oil shouldn't own oil stocks.

    Likewise, Hobby Lobby shouldn't own investments that deal with drug companies that make the very products involved in their Supreme Court case.

    A key part of the decision is that the owners of Hobby Lobby are sincere in their religious beliefs. Their investment portfolio can be used as evidence to show that Hobby Lobby is okay with contraceptives, which means that they would lose their exemption on contraceptive coverage. It would be in Hobby Lobby's best interest to at least move those investments into less controversial companies quickly.
    That filing was from 2012, we don't know what their portfolio looks like today. Some don't even know funds exist for such companies that carry strong religious beliefs (ie...the Ave Maria fund)
    Scott7217 likes this.
    07-01-2014 05:36 PM
  25. anon8126715's Avatar
    It's different because sex is a part of marriage.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Sex is a part of marriage because the little book of fairy tales tells you it is? What else does that book of yours tell you? Specifically, does it mention anything about greed?
    07-01-2014 05:38 PM
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