12-02-2014 08:42 PM
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  1. SteveISU's Avatar
    Here's why I think it could shed some light, if someone's shooting at you and they stop, are you going to turn around and come after them? I don't think I'd have presence of mind to count how many shots were fired. I'd just run my tail off. Now what I think is more plausible is that he shot the guy, the guy was down, but because the guy (from the reports) got in a good punch, the cop got in a few more up close shots to finish off the guy (would explain the shots that appeared to have come from above). The cop was probably having a fit of rage for being struck and killed him like someone would a rabid animal. This is why the community is outraged, and rightfully so, IMO.
    Or that the fact that most of the shots were not fatal, which didn't stop him from advancing, and then a second series of shots rang out that were fatal. It would make sense for a cop to try and stop him with non-fatal hits first and then progress to center mass or head shots if the suspect keeps coming. Hell even Van Jones sees that as more likely scenario.
    08-27-2014 09:03 AM
  2. A895's Avatar
    Or that the fact that most of the shots were not fatal, which didn't stop him from advancing, and then a second series of shots rang out that were fatal. It would make sense for a cop to try and stop him with non-fatal hits first and then progress to center mass or head shots if the suspect keeps coming. Hell even Van Jones sees that as more likely scenario.
    I still for the life of me can't understand why out of all things he goes for a freaking gun to stop someone, mace or a tazer wasn't available to these cops?
    08-27-2014 09:43 AM
  3. SteveISU's Avatar
    I still for the life of me can't understand why out of all things he goes for a freaking gun to stop someone, mace or a tazer wasn't available to these cops?

    Well if it took 6 bullets to stop him, I don't think mace would have done much. If the reports are true that Brown went for the officers gun then that was likely in his hand at the time. Quiet frankly if a person goes for a cops gun, if he succeeds in getting it, that cops life is over and anyone else he/she wants to shoot. If you have a suspect charging/closing the distance between you and him, you don't have time to re-holster your service pistol and locate your tazer on your belt. It's easy to sit here and play armchair quarterback now, but at that moment you have split seconds.
    08-27-2014 10:43 AM
  4. anon8126715's Avatar
    Or that the fact that most of the shots were not fatal, which didn't stop him from advancing, and then a second series of shots rang out that were fatal. It would make sense for a cop to try and stop him with non-fatal hits first and then progress to center mass or head shots if the suspect keeps coming. Hell even Van Jones sees that as more likely scenario.
    lol, wow you really like those zombie apocalypse movies don't you? If the thing that was advancing on the cop was some sort of mindless animal OR a Zombie, then that would be plausible.

    But lets see how this would REALLY play out without a Hollywood script or at the helm of a PS4 controller. The guy attacks the cop. The cop gets off a shot grazing the guy, the guy was just shot so his best bet at that point is to surrender himself, get medical attention, and go to jail for his robbery, assaulting a police officer etc, he lives.

    Now lets play out your theory. The guy attacks the cop, the cop fires off a shot, grazes the guy (the arm wound), the guy continues to struggle with the cop. BTW, there is NO mention of the cop having any of the suspect's blood on him, which I would imagine if there was a struggle and the cop just shot the guy, it would be highly likely that the cop would have some of the suspect's blood on him, but that's not reported so it sounds like the shooting was from a distance of more than a few feet. But for the sake of argument, lets continue with your theory. So after the suspect was shot once, he continued to advance onto the cop. Exactly how many bullets coming at you before you realize, "This is a peace officer (I use the term peace loosely here) firing at me. If I surrender, I go to jail. It's not as if he's shooting at me to kill me, my best option is to surrender knowing full well that this guy isn't some street thug trying to kill me so that he can rob me." It seems to me that once a criminal (an unarmed one at that) realizes that an officer has already decided to discharge his weapon at him, that unless the criminal is suicidal, has a long rap sheet and would rather die than go back to prison, his best option is to surrender. The end results are not what you'd expect from a confrontation between an armed police officer and an unarmed individual.
    A895 likes this.
    08-27-2014 01:26 PM
  5. A895's Avatar
    Well if it took 6 bullets to stop him, I don't think mace would have done much. If the reports are true that Brown went for the officers gun then that was likely in his hand at the time. Quiet frankly if a person goes for a cops gun, if he succeeds in getting it, that cops life is over and anyone else he/she wants to shoot. If you have a suspect charging/closing the distance between you and him, you don't have time to re-holster your service pistol and locate your tazer on your belt. It's easy to sit here and play armchair quarterback now, but at that moment you have split seconds.
    It also easy for YOU to play armchair quarterback. Don't be a double standard.
    08-27-2014 03:16 PM
  6. SteveISU's Avatar
    lol, wow you really like those zombie apocalypse movies don't you? If the thing that was advancing on the cop was some sort of mindless animal OR a Zombie, then that would be plausible.

    But lets see how this would REALLY play out without a Hollywood script or at the helm of a PS4 controller. The guy attacks the cop. The cop gets off a shot grazing the guy, the guy was just shot so his best bet at that point is to surrender himself, get medical attention, and go to jail for his robbery, assaulting a police officer etc, he lives.

    Now lets play out your theory. The guy attacks the cop, the cop fires off a shot, grazes the guy (the arm wound), the guy continues to struggle with the cop. BTW, there is NO mention of the cop having any of the suspect's blood on him, which I would imagine if there was a struggle and the cop just shot the guy, it would be highly likely that the cop would have some of the suspect's blood on him, but that's not reported so it sounds like the shooting was from a distance of more than a few feet. But for the sake of argument, lets continue with your theory. So after the suspect was shot once, he continued to advance onto the cop. Exactly how many bullets coming at you before you realize, "This is a peace officer (I use the term peace loosely here) firing at me. If I surrender, I go to jail. It's not as if he's shooting at me to kill me, my best option is to surrender knowing full well that this guy isn't some street thug trying to kill me so that he can rob me." It seems to me that once a criminal (an unarmed one at that) realizes that an officer has already decided to discharge his weapon at him, that unless the criminal is suicidal, has a long rap sheet and would rather die than go back to prison, his best option is to surrender. The end results are not what you'd expect from a confrontation between an armed police officer and an unarmed individual.

    Wow, that's a lot of armchair psychology going on there. Lots of conjecture on rational thought going through a suspects mind, problem is this eyewitness accounts support the fact that he kept coming:

    Then the next thing I know he doubled back toward him cus - the police had his gun drawn already on him –The police kept dumpin on him, and I’m thinking the police kept missing – he like – be like – but he kept coming toward him"
    4 Shots to the right arm isn't going to incapacitate anyone.
    08-27-2014 03:30 PM
  7. SteveISU's Avatar
    It also easy for YOU to play armchair quarterback. Don't be a double standard.
    There's no double standard I'm talking about. I'm merely stating the fact of WHY one would use their gun. You seem to feel they should never use it. See, the difference is I have no problem with the cop being charged if he just decided blow someones head off. Unlike you who will not be satisfied regardless of what facts come out until the guy is in prison. I mean you've already deemed him guilty.
    08-27-2014 03:36 PM
  8. A895's Avatar
    There's no double standard I'm talking about. I'm merely stating the fact of WHY one would use their gun. You seem to feel they should never use it.
    Dont put words in my mouth. I never said that.


    See, the difference is I have no problem with the cop being charged if he just decided blow someones head off.
    So what's the issue here? Did he not shoot him six times including a bullet in skull?

    Unlike you who will not be satisfied regardless of what facts come out until the guy is in prison.
    Stop putting words in my mouth. I said I am more than willing to see what happens but he damn well should have some responsibility for shooting a GUN at someone first vs other nonlethal methods.

    I[t] mean[s] you've already deemed him guilty.
    Yeah, of shooting an unarmed person, which I stated several times before. But guilty of murder? No. But he is guilty of not doing his job correctly at all. If anything he shouldn't be a cop again.
    08-27-2014 03:41 PM
  9. anon8126715's Avatar
    There's no double standard I'm talking about. I'm merely stating the fact of WHY one would use their gun. You seem to feel they should never use it. See, the difference is I have no problem with the cop being charged if he just decided blow someones head off. Unlike you who will not be satisfied regardless of what facts come out until the guy is in prison. I mean you've already deemed him guilty.
    And you've already deemed the other guy guilty, the UNARMED guy guilty......
    A895 likes this.
    08-27-2014 06:01 PM
  10. anon8126715's Avatar
    August 26, 2014 - David Rose - The Daily Show - Full Episode | Comedy Central It's a shame that he was on vacation for what 2 weeks?!?! It would've been interesting to see him dive deeper into what's going on in Ferguson
    08-27-2014 06:26 PM
  11. SteveISU's Avatar
    Dont put words in my mouth. I never said that.




    So what's the issue here? Did he not shoot him six times including a bullet in skull?



    Stop putting words in my mouth. I said I am more than willing to see what happens but he damn well should have some responsibility for shooting a GUN at someone first vs other nonlethal methods.



    Yeah, of shooting an unarmed person, which I stated several times before. But guilty of murder? No. But he is guilty of not doing his job correctly at all. If anything he shouldn't be a cop again.

    I think there are some who want the truth, but at the same time, a lot know the shooting shouldn't have happened and want to see the cop go down for murder which is what I agree with.

    Posted via the Android Central App

    So we should be feel bad because we feel injustice 80% of our lives and now when we have probable cause to actually get someone for a possible crime against a minority all of sudden we are bloodthirsty animals?

    No, I am not going to feel bad for someone like that. Unless you are black, and know how it is to feel racism, discrimination, racial profiling, and the like, then you would have no clue why minorities want him hung out to dry.

    Posted via the Android Central App

    Come again? lol
    08-28-2014 11:04 AM
  12. SteveISU's Avatar
    And you've already deemed the other guy guilty, the UNARMED guy guilty......
    The reports of him being an angel in all of this and "giving up" with his hands in the air are looking more and more unlikely. The issue is was anything the cop did excessive if his life wasn't in danger. Brown being dead or because he was unarmed does not automatically mean shooting him was excessive.

    To your previous point about suspects who just halt in their tracks when the first shot is fired (or the first hit), here's a clear example of the fact that you are wrong:

    08-28-2014 11:20 AM
  13. A895's Avatar
    Come again? lol
    Lol, so what is your point? You or in forced most of my statements though I do not remember saying murder, oh well. He is going to have to go down for some kind of punishment, and that is up for debate what that should be.
    08-28-2014 12:10 PM
  14. A895's Avatar
    The reports of him being an angel in all of this and "giving up" with his hands in the air are looking more and more unlikely. The issue is was anything the cop did excessive if his life wasn't in danger. Brown being dead or because he was unarmed does not automatically mean shooting him was excessive.

    To you previous point about suspects who just halt in their tracks when the first shot is fired (or the first hit), here's a clear example of the fact that you are wrong:

    [video]www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pgNUFGmz3U[/url]
    So you take one incident and that is supposed to make his statement invalid? 9/10 if you get shot by a cop, any normal person would stop. Taking that one 1/10 to try to disapprove his point is odd to say that least.

    And yes, as I have said before shooting him was excessive, by that video cops weren't standardized with tazers and the like. Nowadays coos usually Cary tazerz, batons, and pepper spray. Any if those three can be used to halt someone.
    08-28-2014 12:16 PM
  15. SteveISU's Avatar
    So you take one incident and that is supposed to make his statement invalid? 9/10 if you get shot by a cop, any normal person would stop. Taking that one 1/10 to try to disapprove his point is odd to say that least.
    .

    Yes it does, especially when he wants to claim it only happens in movies. For all we know his previous 9 stops went without a hitch right?
    08-28-2014 01:34 PM
  16. SteveISU's Avatar
    Lol, so what is your point? You or in forced most of my statements though I do not remember saying murder, oh well. He is going to have to go down for some kind of punishment, and that is up for debate what that should be.
    You keep making my points for me. That right there screams he is guilty of something regardless of what facts come out. Like it or not we give police officers the ability to use whatever force they deem necessary to protect themselves and the public. There are reviews of each use of deadly force, if it was justifiable, he won't have a mark on his record besides the one the media has already put on him.
    08-28-2014 01:40 PM
  17. anon8126715's Avatar
    The reports of him being an angel in all of this and "giving up" with his hands in the air are looking more and more unlikely. The issue is was anything the cop did excessive if his life wasn't in danger. Brown being dead or because he was unarmed does not automatically mean shooting him was excessive.

    To your previous point about suspects who just halt in their tracks when the first shot is fired (or the first hit), here's a clear example of the fact that you are wrong:

    [video]www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pgNUFGmz3U[/url]
    So what you're saying is the on-site death penalty is appropriate? The cop was ok to play judge and jury?
    A895 likes this.
    08-28-2014 03:17 PM
  18. anon8126715's Avatar
    The reports of him being an angel in all of this and "giving up" with his hands in the air are looking more and more unlikely. The issue is was anything the cop did excessive if his life wasn't in danger. Brown being dead or because he was unarmed does not automatically mean shooting him was excessive.

    To your previous point about suspects who just halt in their tracks when the first shot is fired (or the first hit), here's a clear example of the fact that you are wrong:

    [video]www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pgNUFGmz3U[/url]
    Oh and your example shows that the cop AND the robber were both hospitalized. I didn't hear anything about the cop shooting the guy in the head.....
    A895 likes this.
    08-28-2014 04:20 PM
  19. SteveISU's Avatar
    So what you're saying is the on-site death penalty is appropriate? The cop was ok to play judge and jury?
    We give the police authority if their life and/or the life of the general public is at risk. For example, if a suspect points a gun at a cop or assaults him, we do not ask the cop wait until he shoots or beats him within an inch of his life before he starts firing. Suicide by cop is not uncommon, they don't know who has a death wish or who actually wants to blow a cops brains out. It's tragic when it happens, we don't ask the cops to take a bullet first before they protect themselves.
    08-28-2014 04:32 PM
  20. anon8126715's Avatar
    We give the police authority if their life and/or the life of the general public is at risk. For example, if a suspect points a gun at a cop or assaults him, we do not ask the cop wait until he shoots or beats him within an inch of his life before he starts firing. Suicide by cop is not uncommon, they don't know who has a death wish or who actually wants to blow a cops brains out. It's tragic when it happens, we don't ask the cops to take a bullet first before they protect themselves.
    But look at your video post, the cop shot the criminal a few times, enough to send him to the hospital. In the Ferguson case, the body was left on the street for more than an excessive amount of time. I've lived in neighborhoods where a dead squirrel on the street was removed in less time. There's a lot more going on here and based on this city's track record, it smells more and more like a cover up.
    A895 likes this.
    08-28-2014 04:36 PM
  21. SteveISU's Avatar
    Oh and your example shows that the cop AND the robber were both hospitalized. I didn't hear anything about the cop shooting the guy in the head.....
    Still doesn't change the fact that there are people who can walk through bullets and keep coming. You cited a sarcastic example of it only happening in zombie apocalypse movies, you obviously are wrong. That video is a clear example to dispute your claim (ie...you walking through and analyzing the thought process of someone in that situation from a rational stand point so the notion that someone could keep coming is nonsense) that people will stop when they are shot at once, they'll stop when they get shot once.
    08-28-2014 04:39 PM
  22. SteveISU's Avatar
    But look at your video post, the cop shot the criminal a few times, enough to send him to the hospital. In the Ferguson case, the body was left on the street for more than an excessive amount of time. I've lived in neighborhoods where a dead squirrel on the street was removed in less time. There's a lot more going on here and based on this city's track record, it smells more and more like a cover up.
    Here's the timeline via USA today:

    12:01 p.m. – The officer encounters Michael Brown and a friend as they walk down a street. Brown is shot to death as a result of the encounter.

    12:04 p.m. – A second officer arrives on the scene followed by a supervisor one minute later. An ambulance responding to the earlier sick person call drives by and responds to assess Brown.
    3min is excessive? If a person is DOA he/she is DOA and the paramedics can determine that and supported by the supervisor and chief of emergency medical services at the local hospital/trauma center. They had a sheet on him by 12:15. Then the investigation starts. There were a lot of things that transpired that caused the investigation to be prolonged. It could have been done quicker, both the PD and the public were at fault there.
    08-28-2014 04:58 PM
  23. anon8126715's Avatar
    Still doesn't change the fact that there are people who can walk through bullets and keep coming. You cited a sarcastic example of it only happening in zombie apocalypse movies, you obviously are wrong. That video is a clear example to dispute your claim (ie...you walking through and analyzing the thought process of someone in that situation from a rational stand point so the notion that someone could keep coming is nonsense) that people will stop when they are shot at once, they'll stop when they get shot once.
    If a living thing is shot a couple of times, let alone the amount of times Brown was shot, its injuries are a significant liability during a struggle. Loss of blood, the pain of being shot, etc are all going to hinder the person/animal that's been shot. In a case such as this, shooting an unarmed person to lethal extremes just doesn't register. Shooting a person, then that person later dying at a hospital, that makes a little more sense. It seems as though the officer here emptied his weapon out of either anger or out of plain disregard for life, not out of self-defense. The trajectory of the head wound doesn't sound like a defensive shot IMO.
    A895 likes this.
    08-28-2014 05:02 PM
  24. Aquila's Avatar
    If the argument is that a different weapon could or should have been utilized, there is no way we can know that without understanding what happened. If the argument is that the officer should have shot to maim or wound and not to kill, that is a non-starter. As someone who has worked with law enforcement and security on crisis response training it is my sincere hope that every department in the country is on the same page with every officer: if you draw your weapon and fire it, you had damn well be intending to kill the person on the other end. The "shoot them in the leg" and other Hollywood myths are dangerous to the public and to the officers involved. The very rare exceptions are going to be in the realm of special weapons teams.

    As you guys know, I still teach a self-defense class and this is no different than the philosophy in that class. If attacked, you defend yourself as necessary to get out as safely as you can. If your assailant introduces a weapon, your next response(s) should carry lethal intent. If they survive, great for them.

    Like it or not (some of us clearly do not), we have given our security forces and peace officers some responsibilities concerning the use of weapons while executing their duties. Should we investigate this? Absolutely - any and all potential crimes deserve review. The presence or absence of a weapon or the belief of a weapon in the hand of the deceased is not a consideration that alone provides insight into the justification of the shooting. The decision to draw and the decision to fire both should not be made lightly - but both decisions are necessary at times and we need to be careful not to encourage too much of a show of force while at the same time being even more careful not to discourage appropriate responses when they are necessary.
    08-28-2014 06:35 PM
  25. A895's Avatar
    You keep making my points for me. That right there screams he is guilty of something regardless of what facts come out. Like it or not we give police officers the ability to use whatever force they deem necessary to protect themselves and the public. There are reviews of each use of deadly force, if it was justifiable, he won't have a mark on his record besides the one the media has already put on him.
    We don't know all the details of the circumstances that led to Mike Brown being shot but YOU keep jumping to the opinion that he was in danger and shooting him was the only option. That is where your argument keeps failing because you are taking just another version of the story and running away with it.
    08-28-2014 07:20 PM
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