12-02-2014 08:42 PM
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  1. anon8126715's Avatar
    If the argument is that a different weapon could or should have been utilized, there is no way we can know that without understanding what happened. If the argument is that the officer should have shot to maim or wound and not to kill, that is a non-starter. As someone who has worked with law enforcement and security on crisis response training it is my sincere hope that every department in the country is on the same page with every officer: if you draw your weapon and fire it, you had damn well be intending to kill the person on the other end. The "shoot them in the leg" and other Hollywood myths are dangerous to the public and to the officers involved. The very rare exceptions are going to be in the realm of special weapons teams.

    As you guys know, I still teach a self-defense class and this is no different than the philosophy in that class. If attacked, you defend yourself as necessary to get out as safely as you can. If your assailant introduces a weapon, your next response(s) should carry lethal intent. If they survive, great for them.

    Like it or not (some of us clearly do not), we have given our security forces and peace officers some responsibilities concerning the use of weapons while executing their duties. Should we investigate this? Absolutely - any and all potential crimes deserve review. The presence or absence of a weapon or the belief of a weapon in the hand of the deceased is not a consideration that alone provides insight into the justification of the shooting. The decision to draw and the decision to fire both should not be made lightly - but both decisions are necessary at times and we need to be careful not to encourage too much of a show of force while at the same time being even more careful not to discourage appropriate responses when they are necessary.
    The shot to the head is what has me scratching my head. It just doesn't add up.
    08-28-2014 08:50 PM
  2. Aquila's Avatar
    The shot to the head is what has me scratching my head. It just doesn't add up.
    There's nothing wrong with asking questions and there's nothing wrong with accountability. It could be accidental, it could be intentional for a justified reason and it could be intentional for nefarious reasons. Typically officers are trained to shoot for center mass. They can miss, they can make mistakes and they can have bad judgement. It's easy to imagine scenarios in which anything could be true... as long as society is asking the questions and not witch hunting and the authorities are being transparent (as much as they can be) and sincere in their efforts to investigate, I am content with waiting ... as frustrating as that can be.
    08-28-2014 09:03 PM
  3. NoYankees44's Avatar
    Lol at everyone saying he would give up after being shot. When a person(who has never had combat training) undergoes something as sever as being shot, they go into survival mode. Fight or flight instincts take over. "I had better stop and raise my hands and surrender" will NOT cross your mind. Not ever. You are too worried about self preservation.

    What happened after the violent portion of the confrontation started is honestly probably irrelevant at this point sense the guy was not shot in the back. What happened leading up to the violence is what will determine everything about this case. That is the last big gap in the story. I still have not see any details as to what went on before the violence started...
    08-29-2014 09:56 AM
  4. anon8126715's Avatar
    Lol at everyone saying he would give up after being shot. When a person(who has never had combat training) undergoes something as sever as being shot, they go into survival mode. Fight or flight instincts take over. "I had better stop and raise my hands and surrender" will NOT cross your mind. Not ever. You are too worried about self preservation.

    What happened after the violent portion of the confrontation started is honestly probably irrelevant at this point sense the guy was not shot in the back. What happened leading up to the violence is what will determine everything about this case. That is the last big gap in the story. I still have not see any details as to what went on before the violence started...
    A "fight or flight" response would be more relevant if the person at the other end of the gun was some random person on the street or if Michael Brown thought that the cop was just as likely to give him a traffic ticket as he would be to kill him in cold blood. Considering Michael Brown didn't have a long rap sheet (not saying that he was a boy scout), then why would he think that he was in a fight or flight scenario?
    A895 likes this.
    08-29-2014 10:27 AM
  5. SteveISU's Avatar
    Lol at everyone saying he would give up after being shot. When a person(who has never had combat training) undergoes something as sever as being shot, they go into survival mode. Fight or flight instincts take over. "I had better stop and raise my hands and surrender" will NOT cross your mind. Not ever. You are too worried about self preservation.

    What happened after the violent portion of the confrontation started is honestly probably irrelevant at this point sense the guy was not shot in the back. What happened leading up to the violence is what will determine everything about this case. That is the last big gap in the story. I still have not see any details as to what went on before the violence started...
    He must have been a zombie.
    08-29-2014 10:28 AM
  6. GadgetGator's Avatar
    There's nothing wrong with asking questions and there's nothing wrong with accountability. It could be accidental, it could be intentional for a justified reason and it could be intentional for nefarious reasons. Typically officers are trained to shoot for center mass. They can miss, they can make mistakes and they can have bad judgement. It's easy to imagine scenarios in which anything could be true... as long as society is asking the questions and not witch hunting and the authorities are being transparent (as much as they can be) and sincere in their efforts to investigate, I am content with waiting ... as frustrating as that can be.
    I think the police have been transparent from a one way basis, by releasing things that make the suspect look bad, but probably not quite as transparent as they could be. More a case of circling the wagons.

    Posted via Android Central App
    08-29-2014 01:25 PM
  7. NoYankees44's Avatar
    A "fight or flight" response would be more relevant if the person at the other end of the gun was some random person on the street or if Michael Brown thought that the cop was just as likely to give him a traffic ticket as he would be to kill him in cold blood. Considering Michael Brown didn't have a long rap sheet (not saying that he was a boy scout), then why would he think that he was in a fight or flight scenario?
    The only way your scenario holds up is IF there was no physical altercation before the shooting started. Even then, I seriously doubt you are going to find many testimonies of people having rational though the instant they were shot. I doubt you will find many more that gave a flying flip about who pulled the trigger at that moment in time.

    There was clearly a physical altercation given the reports of the cop's injuries. So either the fight started and then the shooting, or shooting fight more shooting. Either way, I don't see the guy going quietly and surrendering a very likely scenario. If the cop had no injuries, maybe. But we do not have evidence that suggests that...
    08-29-2014 03:07 PM
  8. palandri's Avatar
    UN Calls Out US Police For Excessive Use Of Force Against Minorities

    A UN committee said Friday that the United States should stop directing the use of excessive police force at American minorities, according to a Reuters report....

    UN Calls Out US Police For Excessive Use Of Force Against Minorities
    A895 and msndrstood like this.
    08-29-2014 05:12 PM
  9. NoYankees44's Avatar
    UN Calls Out US Police For Excessive Use Of Force Against Minorities

    A UN committee said Friday that the United States should stop directing the use of excessive police force at American minorities, according to a Reuters report....

    UN Calls Out US Police For Excessive Use Of Force Against Minorities
    More proof the UN is a bunch a utopian idealist idiots as far as I am concerned.

    I will ask this question again for a third time: What in this case indicates that race was a factor?
    08-29-2014 05:47 PM
  10. Scott7217's Avatar
    The shot to the head is what has me scratching my head. It just doesn't add up.
    This is why we have people trained in forensics. They can determine what happened after examining the evidence.
    08-29-2014 06:31 PM
  11. A895's Avatar
    More proof the UN is a bunch a utopian idealist idiots as far as I am concerned.

    I will ask this question again for a third time: What in this case indicates that race was a factor?
    What in this case indicates race wasn't a factor? That is a two way street. There is still a lot of missing information that is going on about this.
    08-29-2014 08:35 PM
  12. A895's Avatar
    This is why we have people trained in forensics. They can determine what happened after examining the evidence.
    You can't determine motive from evidence.
    08-29-2014 08:36 PM
  13. NoYankees44's Avatar
    What in this case indicates race wasn't a factor? That is a two way street. There is still a lot of missing information that is going on about this.
    O you're right I forgot, racism is always a factor whenever black and white people are involved. I mean every white person is automatically evil and racist obviously. Just like every person on trial is assumed guilty until proven innocent...

    You really need to take a step back and listen to what you are saying for a minute. From your posts in previous threads, you seem to be a fairly level headed individual. I don't know what has worked it's way under your skin, but I believe that you are better than this. It is one thing to demand the facts. It is another to decide the outcome before the facts are known and to let your personal prejudices rule the way you analyze the information.

    There are situations in our laws that justify using lethal force against unarmed suspects(for lack of a better term). It has yet to be determined whether or not this cop was in one of those situations. If you do not believe that there is ANY circumstance that lethal force should be used on an unarmed person, then it is the legislatures that you should be talking to. It has no bearing on the innocence or guilt of this officer.
    08-29-2014 09:02 PM
  14. anon8126715's Avatar
    O you're right I forgot, racism is always a factor whenever black and white people are involved. I mean every white person is automatically evil and racist obviously. Just like every person on trial is assumed guilty until proven innocent...

    You really need to take a step back and listen to what you are saying for a minute. From your posts in previous threads, you seem to be a fairly level headed individual. I don't know what has worked it's way under your skin, but I believe that you are better than this. It is one thing to demand the facts. It is another to decide the outcome before the facts are known and to let your personal prejudices rule the way you analyze the information.

    There are situations in our laws that justify using lethal force against unarmed suspects(for lack of a better term). It has yet to be determined whether or not this cop was in one of those situations. If you do not believe that there is ANY circumstance that lethal force should be used on an unarmed person, then it is the legislatures that you should be talking to. It has no bearing on the innocence or guilt of this officer.
    You forget that there is a history....

    Cops Who Killed John Crawford III At Ohio Walmart Shot Him 'On Sight': Attorney

    LA Cops Shot An Unarmed Black Man, Are Being Even More Secretive Than Ferguson Police | ThinkProgress


    Here's what I'd like to see to prove this point, I'd like to see a bunch of black people do EXACTLY what the white people did with the whole "Open Carry" thing. How many more 911 calls and complaints do you think you'd see? Although, I can't imagine any rational black person even thinking about trying to do what the Open Carry group did since I'm willing to bet that cops would react differently. It would be quite an experiment to video tape reactions and may at least put into perspective for a lot of you naive enough to think that we live in a society where people aren't judged by the color of their skin.
    GadgetGator likes this.
    08-29-2014 11:23 PM
  15. A895's Avatar
    O you're right I forgot, racism is always a factor whenever black and white people are involved. I mean every white person is automatically evil and racist obviously. Just like every person on trial is assumed guilty until proven innocent...

    You really need to take a step back and listen to what you are saying for a minute. From your posts in previous threads, you seem to be a fairly level headed individual. I don't know what has worked it's way under your skin, but I believe that you are better than this. It is one thing to demand the facts. It is another to decide the outcome before the facts are known and to let your personal prejudices rule the way you analyze the information.

    There are situations in our laws that justify using lethal force against unarmed suspects(for lack of a better term). It has yet to be determined whether or not this cop was in one of those situations. If you do not believe that there is ANY circumstance that lethal force should be used on an unarmed person, then it is the legislatures that you should be talking to. It has no bearing on the innocence or guilt of this officer.
    No, I wasn't day race was a factor, I am saying nothing proves whether it was or wasn't either way, because of the lack of actual info on details about what led up to the shooting.
    08-30-2014 06:16 AM
  16. anon(430792)'s Avatar
    UN Calls Out US Police For Excessive Use Of Force Against Minorities

    A UN committee said Friday that the United States should stop directing the use of excessive police force at American minorities, according to a Reuters report....

    UN Calls Out US Police For Excessive Use Of Force Against Minorities
    The linked article sourced reuters who sourced no one, so here's what seems to be the actual report from the U.N.

    http://tbinternet.ohchr.org/Treaties...-9_18102_E.pdf

    I skimmed it a bit, and it seems to be requesting the US investigate racial discrimination more carefully to reach more certainty about what problems we have, as opposed to blindly enacting policies to magically fix everything. It's not really calling out the US police force (not yet at least), but it's certainly not impressed with the people gathering data on racial discrimination cases.
    08-30-2014 11:49 AM
  17. A895's Avatar
    New Video Evidence, construction workers witnessed Michael Brown shooting say his hands were up and he was still shot to death by officer:

    http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/vi...tness.cnn.html

    Here is the article:

    http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/10/us/fer...html?hpt=hp_t3
    09-11-2014 09:46 AM
  18. anon8126715's Avatar
    New Video Evidence, construction workers witnessed Michael Brown shooting say his hands were up and he was still shot to death by officer:

    [video]http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/us/2014/09/10/ac-dnt-kaye-new-michael-brown-witness.cnn.html[/url]

    Here is the article:

    New Michael Brown shooting witnesses describe scene - CNN.com
    I was just about to post the same link. What's funny is that CNN has been quite about the incident for the past few weeks. I'm thinking maybe they were asked to tone it down because it was making people upset. Fortunately, I think CNN is in need of revenue so uncovering more evidence such as this will bring in more viewership.

    Also, I find it extremely odd that with all the mounting evidence, that cop is still free.
    09-11-2014 02:31 PM
  19. A895's Avatar
    I was just about to post the same link. What's funny is that CNN has been quite about the incident for the past few weeks. I'm thinking maybe they were asked to tone it down because it was making people upset. Fortunately, I think CNN is in need of revenue so uncovering more evidence such as this will bring in more viewership.

    Also, I find it extremely odd that with all the mounting evidence, that cop is still free.
    Coos won't let other cops go down. It is the very thing that is hindering this investigation.

    I will say this, this is maybe 3 or 4 witnesses now saying Brown had his hands up and was still shot. That at least has to get the officer for police brutality if not for murder.

    Posted via the Android Central App
    09-11-2014 03:46 PM
  20. anon8126715's Avatar
    I haven't heard much except for this DOJ calls public meeting Wednesday on Ferguson police investigation - St. Louis Business Journal as far as updates go. Kind of weird that it's been so quiet on the investigative front.

    Also, we have a cop that shot an unarmed person roaming free right now, and we have a crazy survivalist in PA that shot 2 cops, one of them dead, but we have what seems like 100s of cops searching for this guy. I don't fault the PA area for doing a hard target search of this guy for shooting cops, but I find it weird that the cop that shot an unarmed person isn't in some sort of custody pending the outcome of an investigation.
    A895 likes this.
    09-23-2014 06:19 PM
  21. NoYankees44's Avatar
    I haven't heard much except for this DOJ calls public meeting Wednesday on Ferguson police investigation - St. Louis Business Journal as far as updates go. Kind of weird that it's been so quiet on the investigative front.

    Also, we have a cop that shot an unarmed person roaming free right now, and we have a crazy survivalist in PA that shot 2 cops, one of them dead, but we have what seems like 100s of cops searching for this guy. I don't fault the PA area for doing a hard target search of this guy for shooting cops, but I find it weird that the cop that shot an unarmed person isn't in some sort of custody pending the outcome of an investigation.
    Lol do you even know how our legal system works? You cannot hold someone indefinitely without charging them with a crime.

    Also, our legal system allows circumstances that shooting an unarmed person is legal. The question is whether or not this was one of those circumstances. If you don't like the circumstances or think that there should be no such circumstances, then your problem should be with our legal system, not this police officer.
    09-25-2014 08:45 AM
  22. A895's Avatar
    Lol do you even know how our legal system works? You cannot hold someone indefinitely without charging them with a crime.

    Also, our legal system allows circumstances that shooting an unarmed person is legal. The question is whether or not this was one of those circumstances. If you don't like the circumstances or think that there should be no such circumstances, then your problem should be with our legal system, not this police officer.
    No we should have problems with the Officer in question. That is the issue, he seems to have no responsibility in the entire thing.

    Posted via the Android Central App
    09-26-2014 11:53 AM
  23. NoYankees44's Avatar
    No we should have problems with the Officer in question. That is the issue, he seems to have no responsibility in the entire thing.

    Posted via the Android Central App
    That's right. Ignoring our our legal system will in no way lead to any issues. I mean why even give him a trial? Let's put up a gallows in Ferguson already and hang the SOB.
    09-26-2014 12:08 PM
  24. A895's Avatar
    That's right. Ignoring our our legal system will in no way lead to any issues. I mean why even give him a trial? Let's put up a gallows in Ferguson already and hang the SOB.
    Don't put words that aren't there. It seems the officer in question has dropped off the map is what I am saying.

    Posted via the Android Central App
    09-26-2014 01:02 PM
  25. NoYankees44's Avatar
    Don't put words that aren't there. It seems the officer in question has dropped off the map is what I am saying.

    Posted via the Android Central App
    I would too. Society has condemned him. Stepping his head out without a huge amount of protection would get him killed. It is pretty clear these people are out for blood.

    Regardless of what happens legally, his life is over. He and his family will never be able to safely return home. The "protesters" will burn his house down with them in it.
    09-26-2014 03:43 PM
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