12-02-2014 08:42 PM
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  1. palandri's Avatar
    This is slightly off topic, but directly related to how important communication is and being in touch with and understanding the diversity of different community.

    About 4 years ago, TLC has a TV series called, "All American Muslim". It portrayed like 5 different Muslim families from Dearborn, Michigan, which has a large Muslim community. One of the families had a Police Officer on the Dearborn Police department, who was able to communicate things happening in the Muslim community to the other officers, like the kids will be out late tonight (passed curfew, I guess) because it was their fasting period, and the football team will practice late in the evening after they eat.

    I actually watched the show because I really don't know a lot about American Muslims and I learned a lot from the show.

    Well, the right wing Florida Family Association targeted this program to get TLC to cancel it. Why? Because it portrayed American Muslims as normal people. Let me say that again, "it portrayed American Muslims as normal people".

    A show like this could help eliminate a lot of Islamophobia, but the right wing Florida Family Association won't have it.

    Check it out:

    Full Article Florida Family Association

    'All-American Muslim' Cancelled: TLC Cancels Controversial Series
    A895 likes this.
    12-02-2014 09:34 AM
  2. SteveISU's Avatar
    You don't think communities regardless of race or gender preferences would be better served by police officers who know what the problems of that community really are or have a know how of the people of that area?
    That would require the community to open up to police officers, that doesn't happen. There is a code in some inner cities that shut cops out. How many times do the citizens of the community shut their mouth when the cops are pleading with them to give them information? This also takes the leaders of that community to have the stones to stand up and point out the problems in that community start with it's citizens, it's not a national issue. That isn't happening. I would think just about any person could go in and learn the community through experience policing that community.

    You say regardless of race, but one of the big issues brought up in Ferguson was that the racial make up of the police force in Ferguson didn't represent the make up of the community. Again, implying that we should hire police, firemen, EMT's based on their culture and the cultural make up of the community. It sounds like is you are implying that in more subtle terms.
    12-02-2014 09:38 AM
  3. A895's Avatar
    That would require the community to open up to police officers, that doesn't happen. There is a code in some inner cities that shut cops out. How many times do the citizens of the community shut their mouth when the cops are pleading with them to give them information? This also takes the leaders of that community to have the stones to stand up and point out the problems in that community start with it's citizens, it's not a national issue. That isn't happening. I would think just about any person could go in and learn the community through experience policing that community.

    You say regardless of race, but one of the big issues brought up in Ferguson was that the racial make up of the police force in Ferguson didn't represent the make up of the community. Again, implying that we should hire police, firemen, EMT's based on their culture and the cultural make up of the community. It sounds like is you are implying that in more subtle terms.
    We should hire police forces reflective of the areas they have to serve. That creates less problems in the long run and helps open that dialogue that needs to happen between the police and community. And contrary to your belief, people do want to tall to police about what is happening, but what you are failing to understand that it is harder to talk to someone who does not understand you or what you are going through.

    A gay person can talk to gay cop easier than a straight one. An Arab can tall to another Arab in uniform easier than some white guy. A black guy can talk to another black who is a cop easier than a white cope. It is the familiarity with your own culture that makes people more open. That is what I am talking about.
    palandri likes this.
    12-02-2014 09:46 AM
  4. SteveISU's Avatar
    We should hire police forces reflective of the areas they have to serve. That creates less problems in the long run and helps open that dialogue that needs to happen between the police and community. And contrary to your belief, people do want to tall to police about what is happening, but what you are failing to understand that it is harder to talk to someone who does not understand you or what you are going through.

    A gay person can talk to gay cop easier than a straight one. An Arab can tall to another Arab in uniform easier than some white guy. A black guy can talk to another black who is a cop easier than a white cope. It is the familiarity with your own culture that makes people more open. That is what I am talking about.
    Ok, so you are advocating exactly what I said you were. So we should then put money towards a campaign to get Arabs, gays, blacks, Hispanics, Jews, and Mormons to become cops. What happens when we don't have enough? Do we simply tell the white cops to stay out? They can't relate anyway. Next time I get pulled over and a black cop comes to my window, can I request a Jew? See where this is going?
    12-02-2014 09:53 AM
  5. A895's Avatar
    Ok, so you are advocating exactly what I said you were.
    You said specifically races. I am saying all cultures.
    palandri likes this.
    12-02-2014 09:54 AM
  6. GadgetGator's Avatar
    I wasn't the one that brought it up, just addressing it with the normal course of discussion.
    Normal course of discussion? No, you took it farther. You said that you would get up and demand a refund if you had been there and those guys came out like that. You'd really toss hours of football viewing over the first 30 seconds of how someone enters the field?

    That's taking things pretty personally. And totally an overreaction.

    Posted via Android Central App
    palandri and A895 like this.
    12-02-2014 10:15 AM
  7. palandri's Avatar
    ... Next time I get pulled over and a black cop comes to my window, can I request a Jew? ...
    No, but you could request a Buddhist.
    A895 likes this.
    12-02-2014 10:17 AM
  8. GadgetGator's Avatar
    You really want to compare how many people are killed by cops every year to the number of citizens killing each other? Who are you more likely to be killed by?


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    I actually wasn't comparing at all, so why are you? That wasn't the issue I responded to. You said cops didn't need more training. I pointed out an example where more training would have been useful. Your response was to deflect and make it a contest between who kills more people.

    But it's not a contest. And the one does not preclude the other. Just because there are citizens killing each other, does not mean that cops cannot be better trained.

    Posted via Android Central App
    palandri and A895 like this.
    12-02-2014 10:21 AM
  9. Mooncatt's Avatar
    Normal course of discussion? No, you took it farther. You said that you would get up and demand a refund if you had been there and those guys came out like that. You'd really toss hours of football viewing over the first 30 seconds of how someone enters the field?

    That's taking things pretty personally. And totally an overreaction.
    As I said, it doesn't matter if it's a football game or grocery store. I'd leave my full cart at the checkout and take my business elsewhere if the store management allows their workers to protest to customers while on the job. That's my choice. Of course, I'd let the management know and give them a chance to correct the situation first. If they don't, then it's just free market capitalism at work. People boycott businesses all the time for various reasons and this would be no different.
    12-02-2014 10:51 AM
  10. SteveISU's Avatar
    I actually wasn't comparing at all, so why are you? That wasn't the issue I responded to. You said cops didn't need more training. I pointed out an example where more training would have been useful. Your response was to deflect and make it a contest between who kills more people.

    But it's not a contest. And the one does not preclude the other. Just because there are citizens killing each other, does not mean that cops cannot be better trained.

    Posted via Android Central App
    I don't know, I'd tend to focus on the group who's doing the most killing and try to change their behavior but maybe logic is the wrong thing to have here.
    12-02-2014 12:36 PM
  11. SteveISU's Avatar
    You said specifically races. I am saying all cultures.
    Hence the "ect" in that post. Add whomever you want to it.


    FYI....Jews are not a race.
    12-02-2014 12:37 PM
  12. GadgetGator's Avatar
    I don't know, I'd tend to focus on the group who's doing the most killing and try to change their behavior but maybe logic is the wrong thing to have here.
    It's not a zero sum game. Why can't both be done?

    And frankly, it's in a cities best interest to have a well trained police force doing things correctly so they don't get lawsuits filed against them depleting the city coffers and leaving less to fix roads, improve traffic and do other things citizens want.

    Paying out multimillion dollar settlements over lack of training and discipline is just stupid and very shortsighted.

    Posted via Android Central App
    A895 likes this.
    12-02-2014 12:48 PM
  13. A895's Avatar
    I don't know, I'd tend to focus on the group who's doing the most killing and try to change their behavior but maybe logic is the wrong thing to have here.
    FYI blacks only commit 52% of murder (not most) according to the FBI stats. Whites committed 45%. By the numbers (again FBI), Whites and Blacks committed almost the same (100 difference) amount for murders for people aged 22 and over. The disparity comes from those aged 17-24, where blacks committed more.

    Straight statistics and numbers.

    From FBI.gov
    12-02-2014 12:50 PM
  14. A895's Avatar
    Hence the "ect" in that post. Add whomever you want to it.


    FYI....Jews are not a race.
    So what is the issue you have? Getting more knowledgeable people on specific areas sounds like a novel idea. What's the problem?
    12-02-2014 12:51 PM
  15. NoYankees44's Avatar
    It takes Both sides' cooperation and trust to fix the problem. You can do to whatever you want to the police department, if the citizens do not want to trust or cooperate with authority, nothing will change. As the riots show, the community of Ferguson has MUCH deeper issues than trusting the police force. An alarming portion of this community has been acting like stupid animals the last 2 weeks. They deserve no sympathy from anyone after all the violence. To suggest anything else is to condone violence against innocent people just because someone is angry.

    And understanding one another has absolutely nothing to do with race or appearance. I don't know what racist bin that concept crawled out of...

    Posted via the Android Central App
    12-02-2014 01:05 PM
  16. SteveISU's Avatar
    FYI blacks only commit 52% of murder (not most) according to the FBI stats. Whites committed 45%. By the numbers (again FBI), Whites and Blacks committed almost the same (100 difference) amount for murders for people aged 22 and over. The disparity comes from those aged 17-24, where blacks committed more.

    Straight statistics and numbers.

    From FBI.gov
    Look at the entire picture, not just a snip-it. Blacks make up 13% of the population, they are responsible for more than half of all murders. Do the math, that's almost 15 per 100,000 in this county. In contrast, whites make up 63% of the population, which equates to about 2.25 per 100,000. If you want to look at it per capita, one group is committing 7x's more murder than the other.

    Again, you brought that up, not me. I'm merely putting those statistics in the appropriate context. BTW...I said one group "the citizens" vs. "the police". I wasn't talking black, white, green or orange.
    12-02-2014 01:47 PM
  17. A895's Avatar
    It takes Both sides' cooperation and trust to fix the problem. You can do to whatever you want to the police department, if the citizens do not want to trust or cooperate with authority, nothing will change. As the riots show, the community of Ferguson has MUCH deeper issues than trusting the police force. An alarming portion of this community has been acting like stupid animals the last 2 weeks. They deserve no sympathy from anyone after all the violence. To suggest anything else is to condone violence against innocent people just because someone is angry.

    And understanding one another has absolutely nothing to do with race or appearance. I don't know what racist bin that concept crawled out of...

    Posted via the Android Central App
    You are totally off base with the entire situation based on this.
    12-02-2014 01:48 PM
  18. A895's Avatar
    Look at the entire picture, not just a snip-it. Blacks make up 13% of the population, they are responsible for more than half of all murders. Do the math, that's almost 15 per 100,000 in this county. In contrast, whites make up 63% of the population, which equates to about 2.25 per 100,000. If you want to look at it per capita, one group is committing 7x's more murder than the other.

    Again, you brought that up, not me. I'm merely putting those statistics in the appropriate context. BTW...I said one group "the citizens" vs. "the police". I wasn't talking black, white, green or orange.
    Does it matter? All I am saying is saying statements like "most killings" is disengious. What needs to happen if anything from everything that I posted and what happened in Ferguson is focusing on education.

    It always comes down to it. From the statistics themselves, murders from blacks are twice the same as whites for the age range of 17-24. Maybe a greater focus on conflict resolution, and staying in school would be a great boon. Then we get to the problems of education with teachers who don't understand students, and lack of good school programs to keep kids off of streets after school and during the summer months.
    12-02-2014 01:52 PM
  19. NoYankees44's Avatar
    You are totally off base with the entire situation based on this.
    Explain...

    Sent from my XT1096
    12-02-2014 01:53 PM
  20. SteveISU's Avatar
    It's not a zero sum game. Why can't both be done?

    And frankly, it's in a cities best interest to have a well trained police force doing things correctly so they don't get lawsuits filed against them depleting the city coffers and leaving less to fix roads, improve traffic and do other things citizens want.

    Paying out multimillion dollar settlements over lack of training and discipline is just stupid and very shortsighted.

    Posted via Android Central App
    Where's the talk about getting citizens to start acting like human beings in some of these neighborhoods? I see a lot of finger pointing at the cops. Tell me something, did I miss Al Sharpton going down to Akron, Ohio excoriating anyone when a white cop was shot dead in a bar 2-3 Sunday's ago? If Brown actually got the gun and killed Wilson, would we have this thread. Would we be talking about his wife and his unborn child? Would we be talking about protecting cops more? It's a rhetorical question, I already know the answer.
    12-02-2014 01:55 PM
  21. A895's Avatar
    Explain...

    Sent from my XT1096
    You called everyone animals, ignored the legitimate protestors, and think everyone is not seriously upset. This issue with local police and a black community not trusting them goes back decades. There was never really a time where black people honestly trusted police. 60 and earlier cops hosed black people or beat them to death.

    70-90s cops beating minorities(Rodney King). 2000s-present cops shooting minorities. There has always been a mistrust of police when it comes to cops and it comes from a serious place. It isn't just black people hate police because we do illegal stuff. It comes from cops used to be prime instigators in segregation.

    This mistrust of authority is deep seated. Hence, the amount of protests across the country and the severe anger in Ferguson. This is what happens when you treat people.like criminals. I don't know if being treated like criminals is a step up to being treated like less than human in the late1800s and earlier.
    GadgetGator likes this.
    12-02-2014 02:05 PM
  22. SteveISU's Avatar
    Does it matter? All I am saying is saying statements like "most killings" is disengious. What needs to happen if anything from everything that I posted and what happened in Ferguson is focusing on education.

    It always comes down to it. From the statistics themselves, murders from blacks are twice the same as whites for the age range of 17-24. Maybe a greater focus on conflict resolution, and staying in school would be a great boon. Then we get to the problems of education with teachers who don't understand students, and lack of good school programs to keep kids off of streets after school and during the summer months.
    Actually it does matter. The statistics as you presented them aren't as cut and dry as you wanted them to be made out to be.

    Education starts with the parents, start there and then work outward. I don't think any of us learned how to be a good person from our math teacher. Morals and values start at home.

    I never asked my science teacher to "understand" me. He talked, I listened, I took notes, he quizzed us. The best way to get out of poverty is through an education, but that takes someone willing to be educated. If a kid doesn't want to do something, it's pretty difficult to force him to do it. We are long past the days of nuns strapping kids down and beating them with a ruler to make them behave and listen. My guess is that wouldn't work today as we'd likely end up with a lot of dead nuns.
    12-02-2014 02:07 PM
  23. A895's Avatar
    Actually it does matter. The statistics as you presented them aren't as cut and dry as you wanted them to be made out to be.

    Education starts with the parents, start there and then work outward. I don't think any of us learned how to be a good person from our math teacher. Morals and values start at home.

    I never asked my science teacher to "understand" me. He talked, I listened, I took notes, he quizzed us. The best way to get out of poverty is through an education, but that takes someone willing to be educated. If a kid doesn't want to do something, it's pretty difficult to force him to do it. We are long past the days of nuns strapping kids down and beating them with a ruler to make them behave and listen. My guess is that wouldn't work today as we'd likely end up with a lot of dead nuns.
    By this comment you are completely missing previous points made in this thread. Black people don't have the same experience in school and out as other races. Willingness to learn isn't as easy as wanting to do so. And even with parents the challenge can still be high to stay in school.

    I mean how far are we away from school integration? 30yrs or so?
    12-02-2014 02:12 PM
  24. SteveISU's Avatar
    By this comment you are completely missing previous points made in this thread. Black people don't have the same experience in school and out as other races. Willingness to learn isn't as easy as wanting to do so. And even with parents the challenge can still be high to stay in school.

    I mean how far are we away from school integration? 30yrs or so?
    Lemme ask you this, are black kids conceived differently than white kids? Does it require a man and a woman? How many kids are born out of wedlock in the African american community?????? 72% How many are raised by a single parent (most often the mother)? 68%

    It's hard these days to raise kids with both parents, with only one it's a steep uphill battle and the odds are severely stacked against that mom and/or dad. Fix that problem and I guarantee you things would likely improve.
    12-02-2014 02:23 PM
  25. NoYankees44's Avatar
    You called everyone animals, ignored the legitimate protestors, and think everyone is not seriously upset. This issue with local police and a black community not trusting them goes back decades. There was never really a time where black people honestly trusted police. 60 and earlier cops hosed black people or beat them to death.

    70-90s cops beating minorities(Rodney King). 2000s-present cops shooting minorities. There has always been a mistrust of police when it comes to cops and it comes from a serious place. It isn't just black people hate police because we do illegal stuff. It comes from cops used to be prime instigators in segregation.

    This mistrust of authority is deep seated. Hence, the amount of protests across the country and the severe anger in Ferguson. This is what happens when you treat people.like criminals. I don't know if being treated like criminals is a step up to being treated like less than human in the late1800s and earlier.
    I called the violent people animals and said that it was obviously a significant portion of the community.

    The conversation about what to do in Ferguson is separate from the national conversation. If the people of Ferguson hated the violence so much, then why was everyone physically able not out protecting the innocent businesses? Where is the voluntary reimbursement from the citizen's of Ferguson to these innocent victims? This community obviously has deeper issues than mistrust in cops. They obviously do not care about the well being of anyone else.

    Now the national conversation is a cause worthy of discussion. The biggest thing holding back the initiative is the fact that Brown is a horrible poster child. Everyone should have blown up over a case worthy of the cause.

    And again, if the Black community is not willing to respect authority, then the conversation ends there. It takes both sides actively trying in order to change anything. Imo, a great place to start is for the Black community to look at fixing its own issues as well as it's relationship with authoritative bodies.
    12-02-2014 02:54 PM
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